anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

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prezidentv8
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:21 am

nealric wrote:I thought being on a journal helped my writing. The journal was also specific to my practice area, which was good for demonstrating my interest in it has made me much more up on current events in the practice area than most young lawyers just starting out. Most secondary journals aren't too much work.

Law review is a lot of work, but worth it for the job opportunities.


Unless you don't get a job, at which point you've spent hours upon hours looking up which commas to italicize for no reason. But hey, I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune if I had my stuff lined up for summer.

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nealric
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby nealric » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:35 am

Unless you don't get a job, at which point you've spent hours upon hours looking up which commas to italicize for no reason. But hey, I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune if I had my stuff lined up for summer.


You will get a job eventually, in which case your comma finding skills will be most beneficial.

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prezidentv8
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:36 am

nealric wrote:
Unless you don't get a job, at which point you've spent hours upon hours looking up which commas to italicize for no reason. But hey, I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune if I had my stuff lined up for summer.


You will get a job eventually, in which case your comma finding skills will be most beneficial.


haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.

TigerBeer
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby TigerBeer » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:40 am

i dont want to do a journal but i also don't want to fuck myself over for biglaw jobs (at MVP)

if i'm not doing journal, i guess i should do a different extracurricular?

i'd be way more interested in doing a clinic or something else that seems a bit more hands-on. research would be fun too. anything but fucking bluebooking

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nealric
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby nealric » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:41 am

haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.


As asinine as the bluebook is, your familiarity with it probably increased greatly. Looking for italicized commas is tedious, but honing your ability to spot them is very useful later in your career. Even as a partner in a law firm, you are going to be reviewing various documents before they go out, and your underlings might not have spotted that misplaced comma.

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prezidentv8
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:48 am

nealric wrote:
haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.


As asinine as the bluebook is, your familiarity with it probably increased greatly. Looking for italicized commas is tedious, but honing your ability to spot them is very useful later in your career. Even as a partner in a law firm, you are going to be reviewing various documents before they go out, and your underlings might not have spotted that misplaced comma.


Well, in short - not really. I look up what I need to not screw over the next editor with bad work, make the edit, and move on. Usually I drink afterwards and pretty much forget what I just did. Now EIC's, those folks have some familiarity with the bluebook because they review everything. But even so, the hours of time can be much more productively spent than in honing my ability to spot a comma or remember the rule on how to cite the federal appendix. The journal thing in general - and frankly the profession's whole obsession with form over substance in citations - is an absolute waste. Great for showing employers you're willingness to do mindless work for a paycheck or partnership in the future, but if the value is in practicing spotting wrongly formatted commas, I think I can worry about that on the job when I get there.

TLDR: Journals have but a nominal value added. Other shit is better.

sophie316
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby sophie316 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:38 am

I didn't do a journal and I thank god every day that I was too lazy to do the writing competition.

ETA: it wasn't just laziness, i also just had no interest in being on one. but in retrospect i definitely did the right thing.

random5483
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby random5483 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:37 am

I think we need to draw clear distinctions from "Insert Random Journal" and "Law Review." Journals outside of law review have very limited purposes. If you fail to get into law review and want a clerkship, a journal probably makes sense. If your school has a renowned non-law review journal in a field you are interested in, a journal might make sense. If you get into law review, joining it almost always makes sense. Outside of the listed circumstances, a journal is probably "optional."


Interning/Externing/Volunteering/Networking, etc are important. Journals are only "sometimes" important. However, law review is not just some journal and outside of very limited circumstances I cannot imagine why one would give up law review due to lack of interest. I am not keen on doing the law review work, but I would definitely join it just for the leg up it will give me over everyone in my school who is not in law review.

Alyosha
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby Alyosha » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:20 pm

At my T30, the same general group of people took up all the interview slots for virtually every OCI employer. With few exceptions, every person in the group was on some type of journal. Law review members were over-represented in that group. This may not be true at a T6, but the farther down the rankings you go I believe a journal becomes necessary for finding a job at OCI. It's not sufficient, but probably necessary. Lots of people do externships and journal at the same time too. If you are getting class credit, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

And from the people I know on law review who didn't do OCI, law review helped in their interviews with DA offices, smaller firms, and other government agencies.

Also, I'm not sure how writing the note/comment wouldn't help you in a legal job. I mean you sit down and do a ton of research on a distinct legal issue, formulate an argument, and then present the argument as clearly and persuasively as possible. You rely a little more on law review articles and theory than you would in a memo or brief, but the general process of research in writing is the same. And cite checking really does force you to pay strict attention to detail, which should also help in your career. Though I haven't worked in a legal job beyond my 1L summer, I agree with Nealric that being on the journal provides some valuable skills. If nothing else, it shows employers you volunteered to spend long hours on legal work outside of required class work.

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prezidentv8
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:07 pm

Alyosha wrote:If nothing else, it shows employers you volunteered to spend long hours on "legal" work outside of required class work.

TITCR, with the addition of the quotation marks.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:37 am

nealric wrote:
haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.


As asinine as the bluebook is, your familiarity with it probably increased greatly. Looking for italicized commas is tedious, but honing your ability to spot them is very useful later in your career. Even as a partner in a law firm, you are going to be reviewing various documents before they go out, and your underlings might not have spotted that misplaced comma.


Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit. Close enough it good enough (at least that's the attitude towards citing that I've seen with pretty much all the attorneys I've worked with between my summer jobs, other internships, and clinics). I don't think the law firm I was at last summer even had a bluebook anywhere. I remember asking an associate about how he figures out how to cite to shit that he doesn't know and he told me that he just looks at some cases and tries to copy what the judges did in their opinions. He definetely was not looking to make sure whether a comma was italicized that should not have been... If you actually think about it, it makes sense to not care that much about geting citations perfect. The function of citations (as a practicing attorney) are so that other attorneys know what you are citing to and are able to find it. Whether you italicized a comma or not has zero effect on another attorney's ability to figure out what you are citing to and find it. (It's another thing if you get stuff like the case name, volume, etc wrong, but the little things don't seem to matter).

I think the only time what you do with cite checking in law review could be helpful in your career is as a clerk.

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RUQRU
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby RUQRU » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:31 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:***
Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit. Close enough it good enough (at least that's the attitude towards citing that I've seen with pretty much all the attorneys I've worked with between my summer jobs, other internships, and clinics). I don't think the law firm I was at last summer even had a bluebook anywhere. ***


Exactly!

See: Judge Posner Confesses He Was Unable to Master the Hated Bluebook While at Harvard Law School

at http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/judge_posner_confesses_he_was_unable_to_master_the_bluebook_at_harvard_law/

Posner doesn’t use The Bluebook in his judicial opinions. Instead, he hands his court clerks a manual with a short section on citation form, complete with a “cheat sheet” of examples. “I think that if one compares my citation system to that of The Bluebook, one will at least begin to question The Bluebook’s utility,” he writes.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:15 am

lawmantentwo wrote:Well as near graduate of law school, I can tell you that it is brutal and you have to take shit from 3Ls. It's stressful but it looks cool on your resume for firms who care. Law Review (Main Journal) is worth it but the rest, not so much.


The rest are probably worth it too, at least if you want a big firm job.

Point distribution for journals in hiring:

Main Journal = +2
Journal interviewer was on = +1
Any secondary journal = 0
No journal = -1
Last edited by pasteurizedmilk on Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:16 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
nealric wrote:
haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.


As asinine as the bluebook is, your familiarity with it probably increased greatly. Looking for italicized commas is tedious, but honing your ability to spot them is very useful later in your career. Even as a partner in a law firm, you are going to be reviewing various documents before they go out, and your underlings might not have spotted that misplaced comma.


Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit. Close enough it good enough (at least that's the attitude towards citing that I've seen with pretty much all the attorneys I've worked with between my summer jobs, other internships, and clinics). I don't think the law firm I was at last summer even had a bluebook anywhere. I remember asking an associate about how he figures out how to cite to shit that he doesn't know and he told me that he just looks at some cases and tries to copy what the judges did in their opinions. He definetely was not looking to make sure whether a comma was italicized that should not have been... If you actually think about it, it makes sense to not care that much about geting citations perfect. The function of citations (as a practicing attorney) are so that other attorneys know what you are citing to and are able to find it. Whether you italicized a comma or not has zero effect on another attorney's ability to figure out what you are citing to and find it. (It's another thing if you get stuff like the case name, volume, etc wrong, but the little things don't seem to matter).

I think the only time what you do with cite checking in law review could be helpful in your career is as a clerk.


I've heard the judge I work for rag on attorneys who can't get cites perfect more than a few times. I hate to repeat my legal writing prof's mantra, but it is a credibility issue.

edit: obviously if you'll be doing deals it's less important, but that will vary with how anal the partners/senior associates you're working with are.

i think for litigators perfect bluebooking is huge. i also remember interviewing with a lit. partner who said "I can't even read something if it's not cited perfectly." granted, that made me roll my eyes a bit, but i'm glad i can easily satisfy this weird demand when i start practicing.

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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:17 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
nealric wrote:
haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.


As asinine as the bluebook is, your familiarity with it probably increased greatly. Looking for italicized commas is tedious, but honing your ability to spot them is very useful later in your career. Even as a partner in a law firm, you are going to be reviewing various documents before they go out, and your underlings might not have spotted that misplaced comma.


Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit. Close enough it good enough (at least that's the attitude towards citing that I've seen with pretty much all the attorneys I've worked with between my summer jobs, other internships, and clinics). I don't think the law firm I was at last summer even had a bluebook anywhere. I remember asking an associate about how he figures out how to cite to shit that he doesn't know and he told me that he just looks at some cases and tries to copy what the judges did in their opinions. He definetely was not looking to make sure whether a comma was italicized that should not have been... If you actually think about it, it makes sense to not care that much about geting citations perfect. The function of citations (as a practicing attorney) are so that other attorneys know what you are citing to and are able to find it. Whether you italicized a comma or not has zero effect on another attorney's ability to figure out what you are citing to and find it. (It's another thing if you get stuff like the case name, volume, etc wrong, but the little things don't seem to matter).

I think the only time what you do with cite checking in law review could be helpful in your career is as a clerk.

Isn't nealric a practicing attorney?

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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby vamedic03 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:32 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
nealric wrote:
haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.


As asinine as the bluebook is, your familiarity with it probably increased greatly. Looking for italicized commas is tedious, but honing your ability to spot them is very useful later in your career. Even as a partner in a law firm, you are going to be reviewing various documents before they go out, and your underlings might not have spotted that misplaced comma.


Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit. Close enough it good enough (at least that's the attitude towards citing that I've seen with pretty much all the attorneys I've worked with between my summer jobs, other internships, and clinics). I don't think the law firm I was at last summer even had a bluebook anywhere. I remember asking an associate about how he figures out how to cite to shit that he doesn't know and he told me that he just looks at some cases and tries to copy what the judges did in their opinions. He definetely was not looking to make sure whether a comma was italicized that should not have been... If you actually think about it, it makes sense to not care that much about geting citations perfect. The function of citations (as a practicing attorney) are so that other attorneys know what you are citing to and are able to find it. Whether you italicized a comma or not has zero effect on another attorney's ability to figure out what you are citing to and find it. (It's another thing if you get stuff like the case name, volume, etc wrong, but the little things don't seem to matter).

I think the only time what you do with cite checking in law review could be helpful in your career is as a clerk.


I think nealric was suggesting that attention to detail is an important skill for the practicing attorney. Especially for transactional work, a couple of misplaced commas can mean a lot of money.

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nealric
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby nealric » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:31 pm

Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit.


I am a practicing attorney. While I loathe the bluebook as much as the next guy (and almost never use it as a non-litigator), I DO care about the attention to detail that bluebooking trains. You can't just decide that you are going to start paying attention to details after slacking for years and expect that you will do a good job of it. Most people's brains need to be trained to pay attention to that kind of thing.

Also, journal work isn't just about bluebooking and cite checking once you get past 2L year. As a 3L, I did substantive editing and selected notes for publication. It was a great way to get caught up on recent developments in my practice area.

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prezidentv8
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:36 pm

nealric wrote:
Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit.


I am a practicing attorney. While I loathe the bluebook as much as the next guy (and almost never use it as a non-litigator), I DO care about the attention to detail that bluebooking trains. You can't just decide that you are going to start paying attention to details after slacking for years and expect that you will do a good job of it. Most people's brains need to be trained to pay attention to that kind of thing.

Also, journal work isn't just about bluebooking and cite checking once you get past 2L year. As a 3L, I did substantive editing and selected notes for publication. It was a great way to get caught up on recent developments in my practice area.


Underlined makes the most sense to me, although I can't see it quite as a training device (maybe it's just me), but instead as more of a signalling device. Also, never thought of the italicized part. Good insight there.

Edit: And just to throw something else out there, the opportunity to publish that a journal might offer can be a good experience if there is an issue you would like to get deep into.

Edit Edit: I still really am not enthusiastic about the journal experience.
Last edited by prezidentv8 on Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jkay
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby jkay » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:46 pm

nealric wrote:I am a practicing attorney.


And amazingly, have time to post on both TLS and TGR!

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:17 pm

Drake014 wrote:I did a journal for like 1 year... but now its on my resume FOREVER. Best decision I ever made.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

You know, for the year you publish it, before you quit :P

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nealric
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby nealric » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:29 am

And amazingly, have time to post on both TLS and TGR!


Just got back from the climbing gym too.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:02 am

vamedic03 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
nealric wrote:
haha...you say this like I learned something new from this journal experience.


As asinine as the bluebook is, your familiarity with it probably increased greatly. Looking for italicized commas is tedious, but honing your ability to spot them is very useful later in your career. Even as a partner in a law firm, you are going to be reviewing various documents before they go out, and your underlings might not have spotted that misplaced comma.


Are you kidding? Practicing attorneys don't care about that shit. Close enough it good enough (at least that's the attitude towards citing that I've seen with pretty much all the attorneys I've worked with between my summer jobs, other internships, and clinics). I don't think the law firm I was at last summer even had a bluebook anywhere. I remember asking an associate about how he figures out how to cite to shit that he doesn't know and he told me that he just looks at some cases and tries to copy what the judges did in their opinions. He definetely was not looking to make sure whether a comma was italicized that should not have been... If you actually think about it, it makes sense to not care that much about geting citations perfect. The function of citations (as a practicing attorney) are so that other attorneys know what you are citing to and are able to find it. Whether you italicized a comma or not has zero effect on another attorney's ability to figure out what you are citing to and find it. (It's another thing if you get stuff like the case name, volume, etc wrong, but the little things don't seem to matter).

I think the only time what you do with cite checking in law review could be helpful in your career is as a clerk.


I think nealric was suggesting that attention to detail is an important skill for the practicing attorney. Especially for transactional work, a couple of misplaced commas can mean a lot of money.


True. I guess I’m more attentive to that kind of thing than I am with re: to citations. Honestly, I haven’t even had a single professor that cared about getting citations correct since LRW (as long as it’s not completely sloppy).

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:41 am

To be honest, I'm really looking forward to being on a journal. Even if it's not law review (which it most certainty won't be), I think the idea of writing a comment by yourself is sweet, even if it's just for sake of personal satisfaction.

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romothesavior
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:55 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:To be honest, I'm really looking forward to being on a journal. Even if it's not law review (which it most certainty won't be), I think the idea of writing a comment by yourself is sweet, even if it's just for sake of personal satisfaction.

You are such a goddamn gunner.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: anyone else have zero interest in being on a journal?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:09 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:To be honest, I'm really looking forward to being on a journal. Even if it's not law review (which it most certainty won't be), I think the idea of writing a comment by yourself is sweet, even if it's just for sake of personal satisfaction.

You are such a goddamn gunner.

The legal market isn't growing any vegetables bro. You gotta shoot a man every once in a while if you want dinner.




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