What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

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dr123
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby dr123 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:22 am

isnt an LLM valuable for academia?

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mpj_3050
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby mpj_3050 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:22 am

I'm getting an L.L.M in space law.

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General Tso
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby General Tso » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:36 am

mpj_3050 wrote:I'm getting an L.L.M in space law.


I already triple LLMed in Space, Bird, and Dogbite law

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A'nold
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby A'nold » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:02 pm

General Tso wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:I'm getting an L.L.M in space law.


I already triple LLMed in Space, Bird, and Dogbite law


Well, if that's what's required these days, I might as well drop out of my ONE LLM in NFL. :(

BeautifulSW
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby BeautifulSW » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:32 pm

A'nold, is your avatar the roof of Wm. H. Gates Hall, meaning U. Washington Law? If that's where you are going/where you went, I'm duly envious.

Umm...IS there such a thing an an LL.M. in Space Law? Joking aside, there just about could be one out there.

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mpj_3050
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby mpj_3050 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:00 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:Umm...IS there such a thing an an LL.M. in Space Law? Joking aside, there just about could be one out there.


Ole Miss and Nebraska have space law programs for a J.D. concentration, whatever the hell that means. Don't know about LL.M but really wouldn't surprise me - they have them for a lot of stuff.

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luckyme
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby luckyme » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:15 pm

so LLM is not required to pursue SJD?

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vamedic03
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby vamedic03 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:27 pm

For people asking about academia, the general flow for academia is: JD-> Clerk -> 1-3 years of practice -> Academic Fellowship/Visiting Professorship (i.e., Bigelow fellow, Climenko fellow) -> Tenure track job. Ideally you would publish your note while in law school or just after graduating and you would publish an article during your fellowship / visiting professor position.

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edcrane
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby edcrane » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:46 pm

The primary value of a non-tax LLM is that it permits individuals with foreign UG law degrees to practice law domestically. Value added for domestic students is generally much lower.

A tax LLM is usually a better investment for domestic students, but, ITE, it's still a losing proposition. If you browse that tax talent forums, you'll find that only about 30% of NYU's LLM class of 2010 managed to get a job through NYU recruiting programs, and of those only a few (fewer than 10) got jobs at big firms or B4.

Unless you can get funding--either from an employer or through a scholarship program--a full time LLM of any sort is probably not a great investment at this point in time.

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A'nold
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby A'nold » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:10 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:A'nold, is your avatar the roof of Wm. H. Gates Hall, meaning U. Washington Law? If that's where you are going/where you went, I'm duly envious.

Umm...IS there such a thing an an LL.M. in Space Law? Joking aside, there just about could be one out there.


Yep, that's where I go. I love it. It's my hometown as well. :)

LT2012
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby LT2012 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:35 am

anyone know anything about the gulc llm in securities regulation? how is that viewed by biglaw/government?

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Drake014
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby Drake014 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:03 am

What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Somewhere in between this:
Image

and this:
--ImageRemoved--

Danteshek
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby Danteshek » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:38 am

.
Last edited by Danteshek on Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:50 am

Two things.

1. The federal and state government appreciate LLMs in the area in which you would be hired for. The most prominent version of this are the environmental law LLMs.
2. It opens up a new area of practice for you.
3. It can open up a new legal market for you.

Of course, all of these options are generally outside of big law. But that's life.

BeautifulSW
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby BeautifulSW » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:21 pm

Yes, the LL.M. does open new areas...but should a brand-new J.D. really need to have new practice areas opened? It's not like you have an existing practice area to move out of, if you see what I mean.

LL.M. degrees are expensive and not an entry-level practice requirement even in tax. Do one when you have paid off your current loans, are under the age of 45, and have a supportive spouse.

CanadianWolf
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:23 pm

Get an LLM part-time when your employer pays for it to satisfy state bar continuing education requirements.

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billbrasky
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby billbrasky » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:24 pm

Don't quote me on this, but I think the feds pay you more money if you have an llm. I don't think it matters what the llm is in either--could be law and bullshit studies--the feds still pay you more $$ for having the llm.

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patrickd139
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:52 pm

Getting an LLM so the government will pay you more money may be the most asinine reason I've heard for getting an LLM. Gold star for you.

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billbrasky
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby billbrasky » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:57 pm

patrickd139 wrote:Getting an LLM so the government will pay you more money may be the most asinine reason I've heard for getting an LLM. Gold star for you.


Can't really think of any other reason why you'd get an llm in gender law.
http://www.wcl.american.edu/gender/wlp/ ... zation.cfm

Danteshek
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby Danteshek » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:11 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:Yes, the LL.M. does open new areas...but should a brand-new J.D. really need to have new practice areas opened? It's not like you have an existing practice area to move out of, if you see what I mean.

LL.M. degrees are expensive and not an entry-level practice requirement even in tax. Do one when you have paid off your current loans, are under the age of 45, and have a supportive spouse.


I would rather spend a year improving my skills/knowledge at GULC and developing my network in DC, than frantically searching for any legal job. Settling for random civil litigation work when I know I have a future representing securities whistleblowers, or working with them at SEC, is not something I am willing to do. I didn't go to law school just to be some random lawyer. I went to law school (and incurred debt) so I could pursue a career that I actually enjoy and that builds on my existing work experience and expertise.

tlslsnlsp
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby tlslsnlsp » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:13 pm

Not really relevant to us Americans but I know a bunch of people who graduated with a UG law degree here in Korea (until recent changes students could major in law at Korean universities) getting a LLM thinking it's a faster way to pass the bar (true) and get a job in the legal market (questionable?). At the very least they treat it as a way to get a prestigious name on their resume (lol) since not many Koreans know the difference between a JD and a LLM a.k.a. telling employers "I went to stanford law and passed the bar" and conveniently leaving out the LLM part. Of course that would only work for those getting a job back in Korea, but I do know a significant portion of these guys who think they can get US biglaw jobs w/ an LLM. Do any of you know anything about that? Do LLM's get to participate in OCI? Would a foreigner w/ an LLM instead of a JD be ignored by biglaw firms?

btw I'm pretty sure it's way easier to get in LLM programs - some guy I know here who has a Korean UG law degree (and is thus eligible to apply for LLMs) applied to LLMs and JDs to see what his options would be and while the best JD he got into was Florida, he had acceptances at Penn and Duke LLM. They don't require LSAT scores, so as far as I can tell, for these foreign kids it's just a high english proficiency test score (TOEFL/TOEIC) and a willingness to spend money that gets you in these top law school LLM programs.

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patrickd139
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:15 pm

Danteshek wrote:
BeautifulSW wrote:Yes, the LL.M. does open new areas...but should a brand-new J.D. really need to have new practice areas opened? It's not like you have an existing practice area to move out of, if you see what I mean.

LL.M. degrees are expensive and not an entry-level practice requirement even in tax. Do one when you have paid off your current loans, are under the age of 45, and have a supportive spouse.


I would rather spend a year improving my skills/knowledge at GULC and developing my network in DC, than frantically searching for any legal job. Settling for random civil litigation work when I know I have a future representing securities whistleblowers, or working with them at SEC, is not something I am willing to do. I didn't go to law school just to be some random lawyer. I went to law school (and incurred debt) so I could pursue a career that I actually enjoy and that builds on my existing work experience and expertise.


An unusually high number of questionably bad assumptions in this post for someone with your post count.

LT2012
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby LT2012 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:50 am

Danteshek wrote:
LT2012 wrote:anyone know anything about the gulc llm in securities regulation? how is that viewed by biglaw/government?


I will be applying to GULC Securities & Financial Regulation LLM in the fall. I am a 2L at Loyola Law School Los Angeles, Law Review Articles Editor. I interned at the SEC last summer and have an article forthcoming in the Journal of Business & Technology Law at the University of Maryland on the SEC whistleblower program. A big reason this is on the table is because my girlfriend is an undergrad at Georgetown (9.5 years younger...). We are getting engaged in the next two or three months. I will need to be in DC regardless of whether SEC hires me right out of law school. I want to work in government. The private sector (law firm or financial institution) is the backup option.


gw also has a business and finance llm that im looking at. but how do employers view it? will it offset a TTT JD?

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patrickd139
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:12 am

LT2012 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
LT2012 wrote:anyone know anything about the gulc llm in securities regulation? how is that viewed by biglaw/government?


I will be applying to GULC Securities & Financial Regulation LLM in the fall. I am a 2L at Loyola Law School Los Angeles, Law Review Articles Editor. I interned at the SEC last summer and have an article forthcoming in the Journal of Business & Technology Law at the University of Maryland on the SEC whistleblower program. A big reason this is on the table is because my girlfriend is an undergrad at Georgetown (9.5 years younger...). We are getting engaged in the next two or three months. I will need to be in DC regardless of whether SEC hires me right out of law school. I want to work in government. The private sector (law firm or financial institution) is the backup option.


gw also has a business and finance llm that im looking at. but how do employers view it? will it offset a TTT JD?

Probably not to the extent it opens biglaw doors. Do you have a business or finance UG degree, and then business or finance w/e?

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reasonable_man
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Re: What is the value of an L.L.M (Not Tax)?

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:17 am

patrickd139 wrote:IAT LLMFlowchart

Image

In general, it appears to be largely a waste of money from an investment in career standpoint if you're not looking to be a tax attorney. Even then, it seems to be a questionable proposition if you don't go to one of the "big 3" (NYU, GULC or UF). Although NU's tax program seems to be on a meteoric rise, given its relatively young age. I'll be interested in following its progress in the future.



This is the only correct answer.




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