Who cares what US World News says?

(Study Tips, Dealing With Stress, Maintaining a Social Life, Financial Aid, Internships, Bar Exam, Careers in Law . . . )
adude
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:41 am

Who cares what US World News says?

Postby adude » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:20 am

Instead, rank law schools yourself:

http://www.allourideas.org/lawschoolranking

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:25 am

Mostly just employers. No big deal.

User avatar
sojasoph
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:14 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby sojasoph » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:35 am

Veyron wrote:Mostly just employers. No big deal.

word.

adude
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:41 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby adude » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:37 am

Veyron wrote:Mostly just employers. No big deal.


c'mon I was being facetious

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:46 am

adude wrote:
Veyron wrote:Mostly just employers. No big deal.


c'mon I was being facetious


Fancy that, so was I.

cartercl
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:08 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby cartercl » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:48 am

sojasoph wrote:
Veyron wrote:Mostly just employers. No big deal.

word.


Image

missinglink
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:49 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby missinglink » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:37 pm


BaronDetroit
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:19 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby BaronDetroit » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:34 pm

Certainly, the Cooley President appropriately addressed this ranking scheme in his remarks here: --LinkRemoved--

User avatar
DeeCee
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:09 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:36 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:Certainly, the Cooley President appropriately addressed this ranking scheme in his remarks here: --LinkRemoved--


lol....

BlueDiamond
Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby BlueDiamond » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:41 pm

"He did no feasibility study, or market survey, or business plan. Indeed, he did almost no research, barely enough to find out what it took to incorporate a law school. He did what many entrepreneurs do, they get an idea and they do whatever is necessary to make it successful."

Read as: "He did nothing necessary to make the law school successful. He had a great idea and did whatever was necessary to make the law school successful."

User avatar
savagedm
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:51 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby savagedm » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:24 pm

BlueDiamond wrote:"He did no feasibility study, or market survey, or business plan. Indeed, he did almost no research, barely enough to find out what it took to incorporate a law school. He did what many entrepreneurs do, they get an idea and they do whatever is necessary to make it successful."

Read as: "He did nothing necessary to make the law school successful. He had a great idea and did whatever was necessary to make the law school successful."


That is to say, if that first stuff is found to be necessary. I don't think he cares too much about his alumni base's success, just his own. So whatever is necessary to be successful, by his standards, could be purposely omitting to do those things.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby Borhas » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:20 pm

the law school hierarchy and USNWR rankings are not the same

the latter attempts to describe the former

employers care mostly about the former while students care mostly about the latter

User avatar
A'nold
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby A'nold » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:28 pm

Borhas wrote:the law school hierarchy and USNWR rankings are not the same

the latter attempts to describe the former

employers care mostly about the former while students care mostly about the latter


*the more you know star*

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby Borhas » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:58 pm

A'nold wrote:
Borhas wrote:the law school hierarchy and USNWR rankings are not the same

the latter attempts to describe the former

employers care mostly about the former while students care mostly about the latter


Image

User avatar
megaTTTron
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:26 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby megaTTTron » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:49 am

Borhas wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Borhas wrote:the law school hierarchy and USNWR rankings are not the same

the latter attempts to describe the former

employers care mostly about the former while students care mostly about the latter


Image


twice in one day.

User avatar
A'nold
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby A'nold » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:52 am

I love that thing but I can never post pic's on here cuz of my dumz.

User avatar
savagedm
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:51 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby savagedm » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:09 pm

Borhas wrote:the law school hierarchy and USNWR rankings are not the same

the latter attempts to describe the former

employers care mostly about the former while students care mostly about the latter


Would you mind explaining this mentality further? How does this hierarchy work in your opinion? This could become a good cautionary warning to the prestige-snobs who shoot for the top of USNWR rankings without actually considering what they are doing.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:22 pm

Veyron wrote:Mostly just employers. No big deal.


I doubt employers actually give a shit what US News says. US news just parrots back the preexisting hierarchy of school prestige.

User avatar
mikeytwoshoes
Posts: 1117
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:45 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:38 pm

A'nold wrote:I love that thing but I can never post pic's on here cuz of my dumz.

Oh A'nold, you've got the best dumz on the forum.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby Borhas » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:38 pm

savagedm wrote:
Borhas wrote:the law school hierarchy and USNWR rankings are not the same

the latter attempts to describe the former

employers care mostly about the former while students care mostly about the latter


Would you mind explaining this mentality further? How does this hierarchy work in your opinion? This could become a good cautionary warning to the prestige-snobs who shoot for the top of USNWR rankings without actually considering what they are doing.


Well, TLS has these hierarchy discussions all the time... see any thread w/ posts like Y>S>H>A>B>C>D>>>>E etc

fact is, students going to Yale have significantly greater opportunities than students going to Georgetown... and at the end of the day the opportunities given to students are what we care about. Some people will drone on and on about the quality of the education or the intelligence of the students. Frankly I think that's pointless, we should just go straight to results. If you want to go to a school because you want to be around smart people then join Mensa, if you want an education go to a cheap school because I HIGHLY doubt the difference in the quality of the education itself is different at Harvard compared to Vanderbilt (higher demand does not mean quality is proportional to demand, just means there is an innate lack of supply for things that are known as "the best" or "top"). It's true, Harvard will have the leading scholars in a lot of specialized fields, but who gives a shit? You aren't a lawyer yet, you aren't specialized yet, that stuff is largely irrelevant just as the quality of a university's graduate programs is to 99% of UG education. (if it were up to me I'd toss out the academic peer evaluation of any ranking system on grounds of nobody giving a shit)

Problem w/ a purely results oriented approach is that there are hidden hierarchies w/ in the results themselves. Many view working for the Federal Government or the ACLU as "Prestigious PI" while working for a city or state government is not as prestigious. Working for a V50 is more prestigious than other firms, clerking for a Federal COA>Fed District>State Supreme Court>State COA>State trial court. There's also differences between the circuits. There's also differences between major cities... San Francisco > Bakersville, etc.

So it's kind of hard to precisely weigh the outcomes. The best I've seen is NLJ 250 + Fed Clerkship, because there's enough people going after those jobs at every school that it's fair to say the schools that provide the best opportunities will best meet those very common desires. "Public Interest" should also probably play a role, but the hidden hierarchies in that field are even more obscure because none of those people want to outright admit they are prestige whores like almost everyone else... we could probably use Federal Government work + Big ["prestigious"] City Gov't work, but I have no idea how to weigh the non-profits.

How much does all this have to do w/ UGPA, LSAT, Class Size, square footage of library, cost per student? Very Little. There's no point in using those #'s as a substitute for the outcomes when the #'s for the outcomes are available (or at least, could be).

User avatar
savagedm
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:51 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby savagedm » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:43 pm

Borhas wrote:
savagedm wrote:
Borhas wrote:the law school hierarchy and USNWR rankings are not the same

the latter attempts to describe the former

employers care mostly about the former while students care mostly about the latter


Would you mind explaining this mentality further? How does this hierarchy work in your opinion? This could become a good cautionary warning to the prestige-snobs who shoot for the top of USNWR rankings without actually considering what they are doing.


Well, TLS has these hierarchy discussions all the time... see any thread w/ posts like Y>S>H>A>B>C>D>>>>E etc

fact is, students going to Yale have significantly greater opportunities than students going to Georgetown... and at the end of the day the opportunities given to students are what we care about. Some people will drone on and on about the quality of the education or the intelligence of the students. Frankly I think that's pointless, we should just go straight to results. If you want to go to a school because you want to be around smart people then join Mensa, if you want an education go to a cheap school because I HIGHLY doubt the difference in the quality of the education itself is different at Harvard compared to Vanderbilt (higher demand does not mean quality is proportional to demand, just means there is an innate lack of supply for things that are known as "the best" or "top"). It's true, Harvard will have the leading scholars in a lot of specialized fields, but who gives a shit? You aren't a lawyer yet, you aren't specialized yet, that stuff is largely irrelevant just as the quality of a university's graduate programs is to 99% of UG education. (if it were up to me I'd toss out the academic peer evaluation of any ranking system on grounds of nobody giving a shit)

Problem w/ a purely results oriented approach is that there are hidden hierarchies w/ in the results themselves. Many view working for the Federal Government or the ACLU as "Prestigious PI" while working for a city or state government is not as prestigious. Working for a V50 is more prestigious than other firms, clerking for a Federal COA>Fed District>State Supreme Court>State COA>State trial court. There's also differences between the circuits. There's also differences between major cities... San Francisco > Bakersville, etc.

So it's kind of hard to precisely weigh the outcomes. The best I've seen is NLJ 250 + Fed Clerkship, because there's enough people going after those jobs at every school that it's fair to say the schools that provide the best opportunities will best meet those very common desires. "Public Interest" should also probably play a role, but the hidden hierarchies in that field are even more obscure because none of those people want to outright admit they are prestige whores like almost everyone else... we could probably use Federal Government work + Big ["prestigious"] City Gov't work, but I have no idea how to weigh the non-profits.

How much does all this have to do w/ UGPA, LSAT, Class Size, square footage of library, cost per student? Very Little. There's no point in using those #'s as a substitute for the outcomes when the #'s for the outcomes are available (or at least, could be).


Heh yeah, I was aware of those things, but it's good to put in here so people know what the fuck we are talking about. That being said, I'll take a person who is driven and unafraid to take chances to produce results over a brainiac who is afraid to take risks and learn from them any day.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby Borhas » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:33 pm

yeah I was sort of surprised a regular poster wanted an explanation, but now it makes sense

and yes, God Hates Cowards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt856_nRxQk

User avatar
crEEp
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:15 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby crEEp » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:26 pm

Ignoring the tripe from people convinced that USNWR has a vendetta against their particular schools, I think it is about time for an "open" standard to emerge. With the proliferation of social networking came tools, like LinkedIn, that have proven pretty useful in the professional world. As time progresses, I think we will begin to see more data emerge, allowing for more accurate metrics to be factored into these equations. USNWR will undoubtedly exist for some time, but I think within the next ten years, we will begin to see a shift away from 'prestige,' as it becomes clearer and clear that skills and productivity are what make law firms profitable.

That's not to say schools like YHS aren't churning out absurdly productive graduates, but rather that looking to a single ranking for "overall law school quality" is an inherently fallacious and misleading statistic. Just like you wouldn't go to MIT to major in English Literature, I have a feeling that law school specialization will become better defined in the future, and lawyers will become more inclined to ignore composite ranking schemes like the USNWR in favor of open standards.

User avatar
dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: Who cares what US World News says?

Postby dr123 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:29 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Veyron wrote:Mostly just employers. No big deal.


I doubt employers actually give a shit what US News says. US news just parrots back the preexisting hierarchy of school prestige.


agreed, where I work they hire almost solely from the local LS, and I doubt that would change even if the us news dropped them to unranked,

Anecdotal but my understanding is outside of major markets and in fairly closed markets (like the one I work in) this is how it goes.




Return to “Forum for Law School Students”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: FutureLitigator and 1 guest