is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

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20121109
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:40 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed.


If you're willing to make conclusions based on the very limited facts available, then that's your prerogative.

I said I wasn't sure i.e. I'm reserving judgment, not refuting the possibility of sex discrimination.

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AreJay711
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Yeah, I'm confused as to how someone could see a woman, and an intelligent one at that, talk about "most bitches not having brains" and not realize it was sarcasm...


Calm down internet white-knight. Everybody recognized her post as sarcastic. However, that sarcasm seems predicated upon a clear misunderstanding of what's actually at issue.

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote: Are you saying there were two layers of sarcasm here?


Probably. I actually don't think that OP is unreasonable to think it could be a weird sort of favoritism. But sex discrimination...not sure.

A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed. Sure it could be a coincidence that it broke down that way, but when 40% of the grade is subjective that raises an interesting question.



Women could be better suited to the type of thinking or whatever that matches with what the grader was looking for. Many people would agree that elementary school is better suited for girls than boys, and girls probably have better elementary school grades. This is more suspicious in law school but could still be the reason.

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Drake014
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Drake014 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:42 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed.


If you're willing to make conclusions based on the very limited facts available, then that's your prerogative.

I said I wasn't sure i.e. I'm reserving judgment, not refuting the possibility of sex discrimination.


I love it how easily white males get upset over perceived discrimination against them regardless of the flimsiness of the evidence but then demand forensic evidence for discrimination when it involves another group.

Aqualibrium
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Drake014 wrote:
Did some douche really quote me to point out I added a letter to a word?


That would be me.

Desicriminatory

Discriminatory


Spot the differences (hint: it's more than just an added letter)

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Unitas
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Unitas » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Drake014 wrote:
dood wrote:
Unitas wrote:
dood wrote:i couldnt have phrased it better myself!!


Does pattern and practice discrimination work for gender? I remember reading about African American firefighters or something that basically held that regardless of discriminatory intent of the grading if the ends are discriminatory it is discriminatory. Wish I could remember more for you or if I didn't just make most of this up in my head - either way good luck.

Obviously this should not be taken as legal advice. It certainly wouldn't be good legal advice if it was.


well either way i wouldnt sue in a court of law. more wondering if i should bring this up to the prof and/or a dean.


Eh, he got that case wrong anyway. Desicriminatory results are not good enough. Needs intent.


I am almost certain that, at one point, this wasn't true. Like I said before though, I don't remember much about the facts besides ends not intent was important, don't know if it was overturn, and it was long before law school.

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dood
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby dood » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:43 pm

forza wrote:Image



ty ty, i pride myself on creating only threads that extend 2+ pages. i.e. the last thread i created before this one: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141095

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ResolutePear
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:44 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
Did some douche really quote me to point out I added a letter to a word?


That would be me.

Desicriminatory

Discriminatory


Spot the differences (hint: it's more than just an added letter)

Image

Aqualibrium
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:46 pm

I typically don't care about spelling or grammar on the internet, but it's always funny to see a person do something wrong while they are attempting to correct another person.

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:47 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:I typically don't care about spelling or grammar on the internet, but it's always funny to see a person do something wrong while they are attempting to correct another person.


Too late. You gave me a reason to post lulz and now it cannot be taken back! :lol:

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:50 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:I typically don't care about spelling or grammar on the internet, but it's always funny to see a person do something wrong while they are attempting to correct another person.


Too late. You gave me a reason to post lulz and now it cannot be taken back! :lol:



You would have found a reason to post a picture in this thread anyway lol.

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ResolutePear
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:51 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:I typically don't care about spelling or grammar on the internet, but it's always funny to see a person do something wrong while they are attempting to correct another person.


Too late. You gave me a reason to post lulz and now it cannot be taken back! :lol:



You would have found a reason to post a picture in this thread anyway lol.


Nothing gets by you! ;)

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Drake014
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Drake014 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:52 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
Did some douche really quote me to point out I added a letter to a word?


That would be me.

Desicriminatory

Discriminatory


Spot the differences (hint: it's more than just an added letter)


I didn't say it wasn't more than just an added letter. But my original statement was correct. I added a letter to the word. Don't correct me when I'm not wrong you dipshit.
Last edited by Drake014 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unitas
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Unitas » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:53 pm

Unitas wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
dood wrote:
Unitas wrote:
Does pattern and practice discrimination work for gender? I remember reading about African American firefighters or something that basically held that regardless of discriminatory intent of the grading if the ends are discriminatory it is discriminatory. Wish I could remember more for you or if I didn't just make most of this up in my head - either way good luck.

Obviously this should not be taken as legal advice. It certainly wouldn't be good legal advice if it was.


well either way i wouldnt sue in a court of law. more wondering if i should bring this up to the prof and/or a dean.


Eh, he got that case wrong anyway. Desicriminatory results are not good enough. Needs intent.


I am almost certain that, at one point, this wasn't true. Like I said before though, I don't remember much about the facts besides ends not intent was important, don't know if it was overturn, and it was long before law school.



It is disparate impact I believe. Don't think it has ever been used for schools, but has been used for grades (ie testing). Didn't find the actual case I remember in the back of my mind, so not sure if this is what was used. Also why did I just look up a joke response of mine to make sure it was real...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_Impact From Wikipedia:
In US employment law, the doctrine of disparate impact holds that a Title VII violation may be established by showing that an employment practice or policy has a disproportionately "adverse effect" (referred to as an adverse impact) on members of the protected class as compared with nonmembers of the protected class.[1] "A facially neutral employment practice is one that does not appear to be discriminatory on its face; rather it is one that is discriminatory in its application or effect."[2] Where a disparate impact is shown, the plaintiff can prevail without the necessity of showing intentional discrimination unless the defendant employer demonstrates that the practice or policy in question has a demonstrable relationship to the requirements of the job in question.[3] This is the so-called "business necessity" defense.[1]

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:55 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Maybe the women participated more or had more significant contributions than the men?


I have a bridge in lower Manhattan that might interest you.

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:56 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed. Sure it could be a coincidence that it broke down that way, but when 40% of the grade is subjective that raises an interesting question.


Nice edit, btw.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:57 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed.


If you're willing to make conclusions based on the very limited facts available, then that's your prerogative.

I said I wasn't sure i.e. I'm reserving judgment, not refuting the possibility of sex discrimination.


Yeah, it's definitely wrong of me to be open to the possibility that sex discrimination caused this. You can claim to take the high ground if you want, but I know that people would be outraged if this same breakdown had happened even in reverse, or along racial lines. When such a large percentage of the grade comes down to subjective, non-anonymous evaluation, it's important to make sure that that portion of the grade is not being used as a tool of unfair discrimination.

Edit: typo :oops:
Last edited by Bildungsroman on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby JazzOne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:59 pm

Unitas wrote:It is disparate impact I believe. Don't think it has ever been used for schools, but has been used for grades (ie testing). Didn't find the actual case I remember in the back of my mind, so not sure if this is what was used. Also why did I just look up a joke response of mine to make sure it was real...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_Impact From Wikipedia:
In US employment law, the doctrine of disparate impact holds that a Title VII violation may be established by showing that an employment practice or policy has a disproportionately "adverse effect" (referred to as an adverse impact) on members of the protected class as compared with nonmembers of the protected class.[1] "A facially neutral employment practice is one that does not appear to be discriminatory on its face; rather it is one that is discriminatory in its application or effect."[2] Where a disparate impact is shown, the plaintiff can prevail without the necessity of showing intentional discrimination unless the defendant employer demonstrates that the practice or policy in question has a demonstrable relationship to the requirements of the job in question.[3] This is the so-called "business necessity" defense.[1]

I think that only applies in the employment context.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:00 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed. Sure it could be a coincidence that it broke down that way, but when 40% of the grade is subjective that raises an interesting question.


Nice edit, btw.


Since that post doesn't have an edit statement at the end of it generated by TLS, that means any edits took place before any response had been posted. My assertion has never been that this is definitely discrimination, but rather that it could suggest discrimination and merits further investigation. When I made that post, I realized that I had not been clear enough and that people would try to misrepresent what I said, so I added that statement at the end to clarify my position.

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:04 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed.


If you're willing to make conclusions based on the very limited facts available, then that's your prerogative.

I said I wasn't sure i.e. I'm reserving judgment, not refuting the possibility of sex discrimination.


Yeah, it's definitely wrong of me to be open to the possibility that sex discrimination caused this. You can claim to take the high ground if you want, but I know that people would be outraged if this same breakdown had happened even in reverse, or along racial lines. When such a large percentage of the grade comes down to subjective, non-anonymous evaluation, it's important to make sure that that portion of the grade is being used as a tool of unfair discrimination.


Never said it was wrong of you to be open to the possibility that this was sex discrimination, especially because I just said I'm still open to the possibility. And what high ground are you talking about, exactly? Are you implying that because it's not racial I'm willing to be more skeptical? Honey, I'm a black WOMAN. As in, sex discrimination affects me just as much as racism. In fact, minority women could even be subjugated to additive discrimination. Just because it's the men who may be discriminated against doesn't mean I don't care. So I don't really know what you're trying to get at, here.

Oh, but I agree that the portion of the grade should not be used as a tool of unfair discrimination. Nice to know you care.

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20121109
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:05 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:A weird sort of favoritism that manifests itself in the men all being placed in the bottom half of the class and the women all being placed in the top half? I'm curious what kind of "weird sort of favoritism" could do that without somehow involving their gender. Very weird sort indeed. Sure it could be a coincidence that it broke down that way, but when 40% of the grade is subjective that raises an interesting question.


Nice edit, btw.


Since that post doesn't have an edit statement at the end of it generated by TLS, that means any edits took place before any response had been posted. My assertion has never been that this is definitely discrimination, but rather that it could suggest discrimination and merits further investigation. When I made that post, I realized that I had not been clear enough and that people would try to misrepresent what I said, so I added that statement at the end to clarify my position.


Sure :)

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby littlebit » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:06 pm

I would really like to how to get everyone in the class to disclose their grades. Do you all go to dinner and put your grade in a hat with your gender on it and then someone opens each and announces?

Also, this could be a good thing to share with your chick friends!

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Unitas
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby Unitas » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:07 pm

JazzOne wrote:
Unitas wrote:It is disparate impact I believe. Don't think it has ever been used for schools, but has been used for grades (ie testing). Didn't find the actual case I remember in the back of my mind, so not sure if this is what was used. Also why did I just look up a joke response of mine to make sure it was real...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_Impact From Wikipedia:
In US employment law, the doctrine of disparate impact holds that a Title VII violation may be established by showing that an employment practice or policy has a disproportionately "adverse effect" (referred to as an adverse impact) on members of the protected class as compared with nonmembers of the protected class.[1] "A facially neutral employment practice is one that does not appear to be discriminatory on its face; rather it is one that is discriminatory in its application or effect."[2] Where a disparate impact is shown, the plaintiff can prevail without the necessity of showing intentional discrimination unless the defendant employer demonstrates that the practice or policy in question has a demonstrable relationship to the requirements of the job in question.[3] This is the so-called "business necessity" defense.[1]

I think that only applies in the employment context.


Correct, but it could be argued to include this being as the grade here has a large determination in his employment prospects. Given that if you read the intent of allowing disparate impact broadly it should cover school grading, otherwise schools can determine who get the good jobs after law school based on giving grades to gender or races they choose. Probably not a good argument, but would be fun.

Here is why only employment:
wiki
Such intent was manifested in the seminal case of Arlington Heights v. Metropolitan Housing Corp. (1977). In that case, the plaintiff, a housing developer, sued a city in the suburb of Chicago that had refused to re-zone a plot of land on which the plaintiff intended to build low-income, racially integrated housing. On the face, there was no clear evidence of racially discriminatory intent on the part of Arlington Heights's planning commission. The result was racially disparate, however, since the refusal supposedly prevented mostly African-Americans and Hispanics from moving in. Justice Lewis Powell, writing for the Court, stated, "Proof of racially discriminatory intent or purpose is required to show a violation of the Equal Protection Clause." Disparate impact merely has an evidentiary value; absent a "stark" pattern, "impact is not determinative." (See also Washington v. Davis (1976).)

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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby JazzOne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:07 pm

littlebit wrote:I would really like to how to get everyone in the class to disclose their grades. Do you all go to dinner and put your grade in a hat with your gender on it and then someone opens each and announces?

Also, this could be a good thing to share with your chick friends!

lol

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MrKappus
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:09 pm

No one should be subjugated to additive discrimination...ever.

ksimon2007
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Re: is giving all males in class low grades sex discrimination?

Postby ksimon2007 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:31 pm

Does this mean I should be happy about my wait list at GW?




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