$180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

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MrAnon
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$180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:19 pm

The majority of law grads will have high 6-figure debt, a 20 year repayment plan, and jobs that start below 50K. Is the price worth it? At what point will it not be worth it? What levels must tuition reach before students say, okay, this is not worth it. $200,000? $300,000?

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vamedic03
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:29 pm

MrAnon wrote:The majority of law grads will have high 6-figure debt, a 20 year repayment plan, and jobs that start below 50K. Is the price worth it? At what point will it not be worth it? What levels must tuition reach before students say, okay, this is not worth it. $200,000? $300,000?


Well, the real question is - what is the long term job prospect. While the majority of grads will have low paying jobs to start with, what does the picture look like at the 10 year mark?

MrAnon
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:10 pm

They are all making millions? My sense is that many get out of the profession. But nowadays they would be 10 years into their debt repayment plan and so forced to continue at it I imagine. Meanwhile the person who didn't go to law school is at least free of that encumbrance.

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JPrezy87
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby JPrezy87 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:16 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:The majority of law grads will have high 6-figure debt, a 20 year repayment plan, and jobs that start below 50K. Is the price worth it? At what point will it not be worth it? What levels must tuition reach before students say, okay, this is not worth it. $200,000? $300,000?


Well, the real question is - what is the long term job prospect. While the majority of grads will have low paying jobs to start with, what does the picture look like at the 10 year mark?


Yea man, cats gotta understand that the road's not going to be paved with gold after you gradaute...especially with the job market the way it is..so what if you got a sub-50 k job after law school? take what you can man and stride....a few years down the road it'll pay off...trust me :).

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rman1201
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby rman1201 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:21 pm

Better than the $10-50k debt and min wage liberal arts undergrads are facing out of college. Not to say one should go to law school for financial reasons, but things aren't peachy in nearly any situation.

And a part of it is just setting yourself up for the future. Things suck now for employment, but we're about 8-10 years from the majority of the baby boomers retiring, an event which will actually bring underemployment. And when the market frees up whos going to be in a better position to snag the good jobs, a Borders cashier with a liberal arts degree or a lawyer with 5-7 years legal experience?

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uwb09
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby uwb09 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:26 pm

MrAnon wrote:The majority of law grads will have high 6-figure debt, a 20 year repayment plan, and jobs that start below 50K. Is the price worth it? At what point will it not be worth it? What levels must tuition reach before students say, okay, this is not worth it. $200,000? $300,000?

tuition can only hedge out the people who don't really want to be attorney's to a certain extent

While the ABA definitely needs to stop accrediting so many crappy law schools, they also need to implement procedures like residencies, where a person hoping to take and pass the bar needs to go through a year or two of a low pay attorney position, maybe even mandating that this take place in legal aid offices

After which, State's should make Bar Exams a little more difficult.

Until it becomes harder to get to the point where you can make large salaries, people who don't even really want to be attorney's, and are just in it for the $$$, are going to continue to clog and over-load the system.

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JPrezy87
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby JPrezy87 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:41 pm

rman1201 wrote:Better than the $10-50k debt and min wage liberal arts undergrads are facing out of college. Not to say one should go to law school for financial reasons, but things aren't peachy in nearly any situation.


Yea tell me bout it...i'm a delivery driver for chrissakes :mrgreen:

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JPrezy87
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby JPrezy87 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:46 pm

uwb09 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:The majority of law grads will have high 6-figure debt, a 20 year repayment plan, and jobs that start below 50K. Is the price worth it? At what point will it not be worth it? What levels must tuition reach before students say, okay, this is not worth it. $200,000? $300,000?

While the ABA definitely needs to stop accrediting so many crappy law schools.

After which, State's should make Bar Exams a little more difficult.

Until it becomes harder to get to the point where you can make large salaries, people who don't even really want to be attorney's, and are just in it for the $$$, are going to continue to clog and over-load the system.


Hmmm...I agree that the ABA needs to have more stringent accreditation standards...but making the bar exam harder??? nah..I'm alright with the 70-80 % passage rates for the as they are :wink:. And instead of making the bar exam harder...why not set an absolute LSAT and GPA floor for all law schools? That'll help thin the herd and prevent the job market from being over-saturated more than anything :).

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vamedic03
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:15 pm

uwb09 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:The majority of law grads will have high 6-figure debt, a 20 year repayment plan, and jobs that start below 50K. Is the price worth it? At what point will it not be worth it? What levels must tuition reach before students say, okay, this is not worth it. $200,000? $300,000?

tuition can only hedge out the people who don't really want to be attorney's to a certain extent

While the ABA definitely needs to stop accrediting so many crappy law schools, they also need to implement procedures like residencies, where a person hoping to take and pass the bar needs to go through a year or two of a low pay attorney position, maybe even mandating that this take place in legal aid offices

After which, State's should make Bar Exams a little more difficult.

Until it becomes harder to get to the point where you can make large salaries, people who don't even really want to be attorney's, and are just in it for the $$$, are going to continue to clog and over-load the system.


The role of the bar exam is to insure minimal competency not to act as a barrier to entry.

MrAnon
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:24 pm

but we're about 8-10 years from the majority of the baby boomers retiring, an event which will actually bring underemployment.


That is very speculative. My $180k investment MIGHT start to pay off in 8 years IF this happens. Many baby boomers have been thrown out of the job market today against their will. That does not seem to be aiding nationwide unemployment. Companies view their legal departments as a cost, not an asset and they view firms as a vendor cost.

This might make sense if say partners turned over every few years like associates do, then people could continue to move up into firms and up the ranks. But a new generation of partners will become entrenched and everyone else can continue fighting for scraps.

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JPrezy87
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby JPrezy87 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:23 pm

MrAnon wrote:
but we're about 8-10 years from the majority of the baby boomers retiring, an event which will actually bring underemployment.


That is very speculative. My $180k investment MIGHT start to pay off in 8 years IF this happens. Many baby boomers have been thrown out of the job market today against their will. That does not seem to be aiding nationwide unemployment. Companies view their legal departments as a cost, not an asset and they view firms as a vendor cost.

This might make sense if say partners turned over every few years like associates do, then people could continue to move up into firms and up the ranks. But a new generation of partners will become entrenched and everyone else can continue fighting for scraps.


Even if all the baby boomers don't retire....the economy will pick up....and you woulda stayed with the firm for a years and gotten your stripes...after which youd be guaranteed a raise if not made partner :).

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romothesavior
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:31 pm

JPrezy87 wrote: Yea man, cats gotta understand that the road's not going to be paved with gold after you gradaute...especially with the job market the way it is..so what if you got a sub-50 k job after law school? take what you can man and stride....a few years down the road it'll pay off...trust me :).

JPrezy87 wrote: Even if all the baby boomers don't retire....the economy will pick up....and you woulda stayed with the firm for a years and gotten your stripes...after which youd be guaranteed a raise if not made partner :).

I had some really good things to say, but I think JPrezy covered all the key points for me.

Aqualibrium
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:37 pm

romothesavior wrote:
JPrezy87 wrote: Yea man, cats gotta understand that the road's not going to be paved with gold after you gradaute...especially with the job market the way it is..so what if you got a sub-50 k job after law school? take what you can man and stride....a few years down the road it'll pay off...trust me :).

JPrezy87 wrote: Even if all the baby boomers don't retire....the economy will pick up....and you woulda stayed with the firm for a years and gotten your stripes...after which youd be guaranteed a raise if not made partner :).

I had some really good things to say, but I think JPrezy covered all the key points for me.



None of that is guaranteed either though, You're probably more likely to end up out of law or doing something else than to stick around at a small firm long enough to be made partner.

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Birdlaw
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby Birdlaw » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:41 pm

I hate baby boomers. At this point, doesn't it make more sense to just take the half/full ride to the lower ranked school? Why roll the dice on a $200,000 loans, when you could only be down 30,000 and get out of debt relatively quickly?

I guess my real question is at which point does school prestige/access to the job market outweigh debt? It seems incredibly risky to pay full or near sticker price in such an unstable economy, even if it is a highly ranked school.

09042014
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:21 pm

Birdlaw wrote:I hate baby boomers. At this point, doesn't it make more sense to just take the half/full ride to the lower ranked school? Why roll the dice on a $200,000 loans, when you could only be down 30,000 and get out of debt relatively quickly?

I guess my real question is at which point does school prestige/access to the job market outweigh debt? It seems incredibly risky to pay full or near sticker price in such an unstable economy, even if it is a highly ranked school.


Prestige matters but only the best schools have any prestige worth worry about. Paying sticker at UVA is better than taking a fullride at Brooklyn. However paying sticker at IUB is retarded if you have a full ride to Loyola Chicago.

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romothesavior
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:33 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
JPrezy87 wrote: Yea man, cats gotta understand that the road's not going to be paved with gold after you gradaute...especially with the job market the way it is..so what if you got a sub-50 k job after law school? take what you can man and stride....a few years down the road it'll pay off...trust me :).

JPrezy87 wrote: Even if all the baby boomers don't retire....the economy will pick up....and you woulda stayed with the firm for a years and gotten your stripes...after which youd be guaranteed a raise if not made partner :).

I had some really good things to say, but I think JPrezy covered all the key points for me.



None of that is guaranteed either though, You're probably more likely to end up out of law or doing something else than to stick around at a small firm long enough to be made partner.

Listen to the sound of the sarcasm go WOOOOOSH right over your head.

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LAWYER2
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby LAWYER2 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:21 pm

MrAnon wrote:
but we're about 8-10 years from the majority of the baby boomers retiring, an event which will actually bring underemployment.


That is very speculative. My $180k investment MIGHT start to pay off in 8 years IF this happens. Many baby boomers have been thrown out of the job market today against their will. That does not seem to be aiding nationwide unemployment. Companies view their legal departments as a cost, not an asset and they view firms as a vendor cost.

This might make sense if say partners turned over every few years like associates do, then people could continue to move up into firms and up the ranks. But a new generation of partners will become entrenched and everyone else can continue fighting for scraps.



Wisdom like this doesn't find its way around TLS too often. Usually its filled with grand notions of the world as seen through limited existence and life experiences.
That attitude will get you VERY far, the naysayers will get exactly what their self-fulfilling prophecy dictates.
I don't know how many times it has been said, but a plumbers certification will afford you the same upwardly mobile opportunities as a JD (relatively speaking of course). Its all in how you market yourselves!

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JPrezy87
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Re: $180K debt + $45K job = Better prospects than post-college?

Postby JPrezy87 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:45 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
JPrezy87 wrote: Yea man, cats gotta understand that the road's not going to be paved with gold after you gradaute...especially with the job market the way it is..so what if you got a sub-50 k job after law school? take what you can man and stride....a few years down the road it'll pay off...trust me :).

JPrezy87 wrote: Even if all the baby boomers don't retire....the economy will pick up....and you woulda stayed with the firm for a years and gotten your stripes...after which youd be guaranteed a raise if not made partner :).

I had some really good things to say, but I think JPrezy covered all the key points for me.



None of that is guaranteed either though, You're probably more likely to end up out of law or doing something else than to stick around at a small firm long enough to be made partner.

Listen to the sound of the sarcasm go WOOOOOSH right over your head.


um...so you're saying you weren't complimenting me...but saying what i said was bullshit? lol




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