In lieu of outlining......

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corporatelaw87
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In lieu of outlining......

Postby corporatelaw87 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:15 pm

Do you think I can just reread E&E/Glannons until I have it memorized? Do you think it's necessary to outline everything? For my open book exams I plan on having a short outline, but for closed book, I figure I can save time and just reread those books, they seem to follow my courses well.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:28 pm

Whatever makes you feel the most ready for the exam is what you should be doing.

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gwuorbust
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:03 am

LS is not about memorization, it is about applying facts to the law.

Renzo
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby Renzo » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:05 am

I think outlining is overrated. It's not how I learn. I still go through my notes, but the E&E's, CALI lessons, squib hypo's from the casebook, etc. are more helpful for me.

corporatelaw87
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby corporatelaw87 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:13 am

gwuorbust wrote:LS is not about memorization, it is about applying facts to the law.


Yes, I know, but I cannot apply facts to law if I do not have the law memorized on a closed book exam.

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soaponarope
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby soaponarope » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:40 am

corporatelaw87 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:LS is not about memorization, it is about applying facts to the law.


Yes, I know, but I cannot apply facts to law if I do not have the law memorized on a closed book exam.


Truth! Memorizing is just as important as applying law to fact... ya can't do one without the other (all my exams are closed book).

Anyway, I think Glannon's E&E is great, but... in my course our professor "unpacks" more detail on certain aspects of Civ Pro than Glannon. I'm using Gannon to outline, and incorporating class notes for memorization/familiarity purposes. After each section that I outline, I switch to practice problems and apply it... that way, I use the info while it's fresh in my mind. It takes a long time, but you knock out two birds with one stone... memorization/application.

I'm a 1L, so... hopefully it works out for me.

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gwuorbust
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:49 am

soaponarope wrote:
corporatelaw87 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:LS is not about memorization, it is about applying facts to the law.


Yes, I know, but I cannot apply facts to law if I do not have the law memorized on a closed book exam.


Truth! Memorizing is just as important as applying law to fact... ya can't do one without the other (all my exams are closed book).

Anyway, I think Glannon's E&E is great, but... in my course our professor "unpacks" more detail on certain aspects of Civ Pro than Glannon. I'm using Gannon to outline, and incorporating class notes for memorization/familiarity purposes. After each section that I outline, I switch to practice problems and apply it... that way, I use the info while it's fresh in my mind. It takes a long time, but you knock out two birds with one stone... memorization/application.

I'm a 1L, so... hopefully it works out for me.


ahh, see K, Civ Pro and Torts are open note/book for me. only Crim is closed, and I wouldn't look at those notes anyways. I need to memorize the restatement for K (just a pet peeve of our Prof) but otherwise, in my case, it is all about the application cause I will have it all right there. but agreed, if you didn't have it in front of you memorize and apply.

Snooker
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby Snooker » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:15 am

From the 4.00+ GPA club, one point of apparent agreement is that reviewing common fact patterns your professor tests on and the corresponding correct arguments on both sides helps on test day in that you see the fact pattern and then you can vomit up all those great arguments again with great speed. A lot of these arguments will come out in class with regards to the exam, and you should make note of these important points. Profs will often try to solicit them. I recall profs soliciting arguments about fact patterns in cases we'd read, without the argument being in the case at all, then giving tons of points for it when used on the exam. Cases, class, and such are likely to have lots of good arguments aimed at the fact patterns. What you covered in class is likely to be very important, especially student analysis that were "correct" and solicited by the professor.

I loosely gathered that those simply memorizing the law would get a B/B+ on exams. There is a prof at our school who does require that you memorize and regurgitate. One student simply memorized tons of stuff straight up and got an A+ there and only B/B+ in other classes with the same strategy.

Old exams can be a repository of stuff to say in response to a fact pattern. One prof here had to take his exams down because they became blueprints for the exams and every year's A+ exams were all pretty much the exact same thing.

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:32 pm

Snooker wrote:From the 4.00+ GPA club, one point of apparent agreement is that reviewing common fact patterns your professor tests on and the corresponding correct arguments on both sides helps on test day in that you see the fact pattern and then you can vomit up all those great arguments again with great speed. A lot of these arguments will come out in class with regards to the exam, and you should make note of these important points. Profs will often try to solicit them. I recall profs soliciting arguments about fact patterns in cases we'd read, without the argument being in the case at all, then giving tons of points for it when used on the exam. Cases, class, and such are likely to have lots of good arguments aimed at the fact patterns. What you covered in class is likely to be very important, especially student analysis that were "correct" and solicited by the professor.

I loosely gathered that those simply memorizing the law would get a B/B+ on exams. There is a prof at our school who does require that you memorize and regurgitate. One student simply memorized tons of stuff straight up and got an A+ there and only B/B+ in other classes with the same strategy.

Old exams can be a repository of stuff to say in response to a fact pattern. One prof here had to take his exams down because they became blueprints for the exams and every year's A+ exams were all pretty much the exact same thing.


Bolded = 100% true. Got an old exam out of the file for my Torts class a couple of weeks ago. The next day, coincidentally, hypo in class. I lol'd.

Hypos in class = exam questions. Hope you were paying attention!

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20160810
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby 20160810 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:36 pm

I personally am a huge believer in the importance of making your own outline. No matter how much I slack in a class all semester, come test day I have an outline I made myself. It's useful because it allows you to synthesize the info your prof specifically taught (or assigned) to your class, not just what the E&E author decided was pertinent.

By all means peruse the E&Es, but they should be a SUPPLEMENT for when you've done the basics (e.g. caught up on reading, made an outline, learned its contents). Also how in the world would memorizing a 400-pg book be easier than writing a 30-pg outline?

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:48 pm

SBL wrote:I personally am a huge believer in the importance of making your own outline. No matter how much I slack in a class all semester, come test day I have an outline I made myself. It's useful because it allows you to synthesize the info your prof specifically taught (or assigned) to your class, not just what the E&E author decided was pertinent.

By all means peruse the E&Es, but they should be a SUPPLEMENT for when you've done the basics (e.g. caught up on reading, made an outline, learned its contents). Also how in the world would memorizing a 400-pg book be easier than writing a 30-pg outline?


Oh hai SBL. :wink:

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Lawquacious
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Re: In lieu of outlining......

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:04 pm

I've got two more-or-less complete outlines left to do.. I lost a ton of info because I had a computer crash (I didn't bother to back up the data).. I have told myself that it's good to go back through anyway.. but it is really a pain to start from scratch on a comprehensive outline..

I think there's probably no substitute for knowing the material and having a basic idea of how to approach a law school exam (meaning that if those elements are present I think the outline itself may be disposable in many cases). From what I can tell, outlining is most effective as a study tool before the exam, and as a quick reference if absolutely needed in an exam. In talking with profs they don't seem to necessarily require the type of fact-specific info an outline can offer as long as the hypo can be effectively approached and worked through- I think spending time researching the details in an outline during the test probably is better spent just applying what is known to the fact pattern in the most comprehensive and time efficient manner possible under the circumstances. Best approach does seem to me to be a really be a personal matter, but I suspect that outlining in some form is generally helpful..

I'm more or less going through some of the same questions though, so I'm not much of a person to give advice.. I did take one graded midterm which I feel like I learned from (the main things I took away from it are that timing is critical, and that learning and applying the basics is probably more important than trying to master every tiny case-specific detail or to learn the subject comprehensively).. I got jammed up on time but still ended up with a grade I was pleased with.. Really hoping to pull straight As for my finals as I am interested in the possibility of transferring.. I think I'm in a pretty good situation even if I'm not in the position to transfer, but anyway.. I guess obviously everybody is hoping to do as well as possible.. Good luck!




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