Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

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Gamecubesupreme
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Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:12 pm

He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?

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Veyron
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:20 pm

Gamecubesupreme wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:21 pm

Veyron wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.


That advice sounds terrible.

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Veyron
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:25 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.


That advice sounds terrible.


Well, that's what he did and he basically shit all over 1L year and has an offer from one of the best firms in the country (received during the worst year for hiring ever no less) so I'm not inclined to be critical.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:30 pm

Everyone is different. The longest outline I had was about 30 pages. Do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable with your level of preperation. Just remember that exams are time sensitive, so you won't have time to flip through all that nonsense.

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Veyron
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:32 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:Everyone is different. The longest outline I had was about 30 pages. Do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable with your level of preperation. Just remember that exams are time sensitive, so you won't have time to flip through all that nonsense.


That's why he recommends coming up with a 1 page outline of your outline.

dakatz
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby dakatz » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:32 pm

I talked to a bunch of A students who said they never made an outline longer than 25-30 pages. If anything, I would think a crazy long outline shows multiple deficiencies. The student can't synthesize the important pieces of information. He can't reduce the cases into just the most relevant facts and rules of law. He has not memorized enough of the relevant information such that he doesn't need a super long outline (since I doubt one can fully memorize 70-90 pages of information). This seems like it would be true in general. That one super-smart kid made it work, and I don't doubt that some people would be fine with such long outlines. But for most, that doesn't seem like it is efficient, or helpful.

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happy187
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby happy187 » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:33 pm

50 pages seems pretty short for full outline.

I have 3 outlines for each class

1. Full outline 60-80 pgs
2. Brief outline 10-20
3. Snapshot outline 1-5

awesomepossum
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby awesomepossum » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:34 pm

I was always comfortable with a 50 page outline. It was also an outline that I would know very well and tabbed extensively. It worked great for me.

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Veyron
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:38 pm

awesomepossum wrote:I was always comfortable with a 50 page outline. It was also an outline that I would know very well and tabbed extensively. It worked great for me.


From scratch or modified older outline?

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rbgrocio
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby rbgrocio » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:39 pm

Veyron wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.



YOUR OUTLINE NEED BE AS LONG AS NEEDED FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO LEARN WHAT YOU NEED TO LEARN. No one can tell you how long your outline needs to be. My ks outline was 26 pages. My Civ. Pro outline was 99. My wills and trusts is going on 120. Really, dont try to meet a 70-90 page requirement because that will be useless.

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jack duluoz
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby jack duluoz » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:45 pm

i had a dean tell my section our outlines should be 50-60 pages. i was grateful for the poor advice he gave everyone because at least a portion of my class will spend thanksgiving-exams making those things.

i think the secret is to have a 15-25 pg outline that triggers 60 pages of information in your head.

dakatz
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby dakatz » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:50 pm

This is why I'm so glad I started outlining early. Because it is obviously too long the first go around because I didn't know what truly was important when I first learned it. Now that it is in a bigger context, I can go back and add a few things that fit in earlier sections, but I can also delete and cut out the information that is far more ingrained in my head than it was before. I guess I have a bit of a skewed perspective of page numbers since in OneNote, by outline is about 12 pages, whereas in Word is comes out to 28. Didn't realize the slight variation in formatting when I copy and paste it creates such a difference.

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stocksly33
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby stocksly33 » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:51 pm

1) i like the multiple outline approach (one monster outline, one condensed outline, and a 2-page checklist). i'm not trying to memorize all of my monster outline, but it's helpful because i have lots of nuances in it that i can skim over. an example, copy/pasted comments from the restatements that may help me to spot/resolve nuances in issues.

2) onenote is great for multiple outlines because you can just collapse information that doesn't need to be synthesized/memorized.

3) regarding naming cases. make sure that student had the same profs as you. i asked my profs if they want us to name cases... their answers were all over the map. one said it's a waste of my exam time and i'll get no points for it. can't emphasize enough how easy/important it is to ask these kinds of questions to your prof.

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nealric
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby nealric » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Veyron wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.



LOLOLOLOLOL. TYFT. I heart 1Ls.


Just make your outline as long as necessary. I never went longer than 35 pages. Some of my outlines were as short as 12 pages in classes I got A's or A-'s in.

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Veyron
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:54 pm

nealric wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.



LOLOLOLOLOL. TYFT. I heart 1Ls.


Just make your outline as long as necessary. I never went longer than 35 pages. Some of my outlines were as short as 12 pages in classes I got A's or A-'s in.


Hey broacacho, I just don't want to end up an unemployed but wizened 3L.

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MrKappus
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby MrKappus » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:57 pm

Anyone who advises a requisite number of pages is lying to you. Learn the material and have relevant BLL/case law easily accessible. If you can do that in 10 pages, bully for you. If you can do both those things with a "70-90" page behemoth (lol), then have at it. Mine were about 20-25. Worked out pretty well for me.

[Edit]: On second thought, a 70-90 page outline is completely fucking useless during a 4-hour exam. There's always some dood who thinks he's awesome/clever who arrives at the exam w/ some printed, bound, and tabbed tome. While he's flipping pages, I'm typing (and laughing at him). HTH.
Last edited by MrKappus on Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rbgrocio
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby rbgrocio » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:03 pm

Veyron wrote:
nealric wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.



LOLOLOLOLOL. TYFT. I heart 1Ls.


Just make your outline as long as necessary. I never went longer than 35 pages. Some of my outlines were as short as 12 pages in classes I got A's or A-'s in.


Hey broacacho, I just don't want to end up an unemployed but wizened 3L.


ahahaha. Was does unemployment have to do. He got As and A-. If he ends up being unemployed it won't be because of his grades, or outlines for that matter. You can do whatever you want, but at least this 3L has grades to prove the success of his outlines...

Just do whatever works for you. Really, there isn't a right answer.

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nealric
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby nealric » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:17 pm

rbgrocio wrote:
Veyron wrote:
nealric wrote:
Veyron wrote:He also told us we NEED to cite case names to go from a B to an A. And by that, he told us to emphasis on showing the profs we know the law they taught us instead of critically applying it.

Am I a terrible person if I trembled with happiness because I know there will be students gullible enough to believe him?


Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.


LOLOLOLOLOL. TYFT. I heart 1Ls.


Just make your outline as long as necessary. I never went longer than 35 pages. Some of my outlines were as short as 12 pages in classes I got A's or A-'s in.


Hey broacacho, I just don't want to end up an unemployed but wizened 3L.


ahahaha. Was does unemployment have to do. He got As and A-. If he ends up being unemployed it won't be because of his grades, or outlines for that matter. You can do whatever you want, but at least this 3L has grades to prove the success of his outlines...

Just do whatever works for you. Really, there isn't a right answer.


Yeah, I graduated. I start a job in January.

Veryon- I'm not telling you that you shouldn't put a lot of work into your outline. I'm saying that you shouldn't be focusing on some arbitrary length cutoff. In many cases, it actually takes longer to make a short outline. Long outlines tend to be just reformulated and regurgitated class notes. Making a shorter outline actually requires you to think through what the important concepts were.

There were times when there was a lot of stuff in a class. In those classes, I made longer outlines. It happens.

savagecheater
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby savagecheater » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:20 pm

50 pages of outline???????

I mean, this is purely just my experience, but -

I have the outlines from people who who the highest grades in each of my classes. None of them are longer than 20.

My current outline on Torts is 9 pages - the corresponding length appropriate to the section of the outline I was given is 11. I'm putting in some more tertiary information that could be useful for insight on the exam, but unless you're planning on a massive information dump I could not fathom what you need 50+ pages of outlines for. My outline is single-spaced, so maybe that lowers the length a bit (I guess...), but still.

I'm making an outline that will be useful on the exam - it's a synthesis of important points and concepts from my notes. My outline is not a simple reorganization of my notes.

I have no clue what a 60 page outline can possibly do for you. At least one of my profs is having us print them for exams, so as not to afford the students on laptops even more advantages over those hand-writing. I would hate to have to flip through such dense material.
Last edited by savagecheater on Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Veyron
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:20 pm

[/quote]

Ummmm, I'm pretty sure you do need to make 50 page outlines. Our LRI told us that 70-90 is better.


LOLOLOLOLOL. TYFT. I heart 1Ls.


Just make your outline as long as necessary. I never went longer than 35 pages. Some of my outlines were as short as 12 pages in classes I got A's or A-'s in.[/quote]

Hey broacacho, I just don't want to end up an unemployed but wizened 3L.[/quote]

ahahaha. Was does unemployment have to do. He got As and A-. If he ends up being unemployed it won't be because of his grades, or outlines for that matter. You can do whatever you want, but at least this 3L has grades to prove the success of his outlines...

Just do whatever works for you. Really, there isn't a right answer.[/quote]

Yeah, I graduated. I start a job in January.

Veryon- I'm not telling you that you shouldn't put a lot of work into your outline. I'm saying that you shouldn't be focusing on some arbitrary length cutoff. In many cases, it actually takes longer to make a short outline. Long outlines tend to be just reformulated and regurgitated class notes. Making a shorter outline actually requires you to think through what the important concepts were.

There were times when there was a lot of stuff in a class. In those classes, I made longer outlines. It happens.[/quote]

Didn't mean to imply that you were unemployed. I'll keep your advice in mind.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:02 pm

I made a couple 150+ page mega outlines in the past, which consisted of cutting and pasting my class notes in an organized fashion. The length doesn't really matter though, the only person the outline needs to make sense to is yourself. If you don't outline until days before the exam, you can get away with only making a 2 page outline for the entire course that looks something like the table of contents in your casebook (with everything else you need to know sitting in your head). A more detailed outline is useful if you are starting to outline at the beginning of the semester to help jog your memory of what happened, e.g., 12 weeks ago (assuming you are only planning on using your outline to study for the exam).

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goosey
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby goosey » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:57 pm

I like the idea of multiple outlines. I actually just got an awesome outline from a 3L that did very well and his outline has literal paragraphs built into it--everything was worded perfectly so it could literally be lifted wholesale out of there and put into exam answers. That appeals to me because I take a long time wording and re-wording things. I think it will be a huge help to just be able to copy it word for word.

Granted, this only works for open book exams and if you have an indexed and tabbed outline. But for my open book exams I plan on having paragraphed outlines, a shorter outline, and a checklist. For my closed book exam [torts] I will probably just have a regular outline and practice on lots of tests to get the wording down beforehand. time is money

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MrKappus
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby MrKappus » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:07 pm

goosey wrote:I like the idea of multiple outlines. I actually just got an awesome outline from a 3L that did very well and his outline has literal paragraphs built into it--everything was worded perfectly so it could literally be lifted wholesale out of there and put into exam answers. That appeals to me because I take a long time wording and re-wording things. I think it will be a huge help to just be able to copy it word for word.

Granted, this only works for open book exams and if you have an indexed and tabbed outline. But for my open book exams I plan on having paragraphed outlines, a shorter outline, and a checklist. For my closed book exam [torts] I will probably just have a regular outline and practice on lots of tests to get the wording down beforehand. time is money


I hope you're joking, but I know you're not.

keg411
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Re: Our student advisor told us we should make 50 page outlines.

Postby keg411 » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:17 pm

The best thing to do with outlines that I've discovered so far is to make them so you can learn best from them and use them for exams. So my outlines in all three classes have totally different structures because our exams are different in all three classes (I've had midterms in 2/3 so I have a better idea of how the exams are structured).




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