Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

(Study Tips, Dealing With Stress, Maintaining a Social Life, Financial Aid, Internships, Bar Exam, Careers in Law . . . )
User avatar
Mike12188
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby Mike12188 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:48 pm

Kalvano's sole purpose for posting on TLS is to convince people he's smart and SMU is a great law school. It never works.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby 09042014 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:49 pm

Mike12188 wrote:Kalvano's sole purpose for posting on TLS is to convince people he's smart and SMU is a great law school. It never works.


LSAT 25% = 155 LOL

User avatar
Na_Swatch
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:40 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby Na_Swatch » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:51 pm

kalvano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Of course intelligence and highly-ranked law schools are not mutually inclusive. Who implied that?


marshponds wrote:Of course they're harder. What makes an exam hard isn't the question being asked but the people against whom you are graded.


Oh cmon, this just taking things a little too far... He didn't mean that there are only smart people in T14 or none outside of it...

But seriously, the difficulty of law school tests definitely depends heavily on the competition you're facing. You need to understand what exactly a 0.4 correlation means in terms of Standard Deviations of LSAT and GPA...

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11725
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby kalvano » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:52 pm

Mike12188 wrote:Kalvano's sole purpose for posting on TLS is to convince people he's smart and SMU is a great law school. It never works.



An interesting position to take. Tell me, are you always a fucking douchebag, or just making a particular effort for me?

Juding by your past posts, I can tell that:

1) You seem not to like me despite never having had any meaningful interaction whatsoever, which makes me think you're an alt.
2) Conpared to you, I'm Einstein.

Regardless, the astonishingly tiny part of your brain that allows for rational thought must have already shut off for the night.

User avatar
Mike12188
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby Mike12188 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:56 pm

kalvano wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:Kalvano's sole purpose for posting on TLS is to convince people he's smart and SMU is a great law school. It never works.



An interesting position to take. Tell me, are you always a fucking douchebag, or just making a particular effort for me?

Juding by your past posts, I can tell that:

1) You seem not to like me despite never having had any meaningful interaction whatsoever, which makes me think you're an alt.
2) Conpared to you, I'm Einstein.

Regardless, the astonishingly tiny part of your brain that allows for rational thought must have already shut off for the night.


Hey Einstein you spelled "compared" wrong

EDIT: And the rational part of my brain shut off after my midterm, but from your arguments I see rationality is not a requirement for posting in this thread

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11725
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby kalvano » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:59 pm

So you're just a total fucking douchebag all the time. Got it.

And judging by your LSAT practice scores, you are proving me right - high LSAT doesn't mean intelligent.

User avatar
JG Hall
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby JG Hall » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:00 am

Back to the topic...

Exams are different at NYU/CLS than at Pace or NYLS or some other TTT NY school because they typically learn black letter law at TTTs.

User avatar
2807
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:23 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby 2807 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:01 am

Bahahahah...

Prison Mike ! That is too funny.

User avatar
Mike12188
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby Mike12188 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:02 am

kalvano wrote:So you're just a total fucking douchebag all the time. Got it.

And judging by your LSAT practice scores, you are proving me right - high LSAT doesn't mean intelligent.


Practice scores? did you just look through my posts for some dirt? :lol:

User avatar
Mike12188
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby Mike12188 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:04 am

2807 wrote:Bahahahah...

Prison Mike ! That is too funny.


One of the best episodes.

User avatar
2807
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:23 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby 2807 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:10 am

JG Hall wrote:Back to the topic...

Exams are different at NYU/CLS than at Pace or NYLS or some other TTT NY school because they typically learn black letter law at TTTs.



This is what I was told too. Not sure of the long term difference, but that is exactly what an advisor told me. The TTT schools really focus on the black letter law to get the bar pass rate up. Where the top schools can blend hypo and black letter smoother due to a higher level of academic achievement within the populace.

If you gear the lesson plan to the lowest common denominator, then I guess the top schools have some leeway.

Of course, once you leave school and enter the real world all of that "intelligence" becomes increasingly less useful, turns to arrogance, and becomes a crutch. No one cares how intelligent you were in law school. Just win the case Einstein.

Smart people go in smart, and remain smart. I like smart.

I am glad it is easy to spell TTTT. It makes me feel intelligent.

And, there is no T in Harvard. damn. That is not smart.

User avatar
JG Hall
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby JG Hall » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:13 am

No blending. You learn no black letter law at "decent" law schools. They trust that if you had enough in you to earn the grades in UG, and/or kill the LSAT, you probably manage cramming for the Bar on your own, too. That's why I found it funny that a transfer told me she really likes Class X because she got to concentrate on all this theory and horseshit. Welcome to the real law school, sweetie.

User avatar
prezidentv8
Posts: 2821
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:17 am

2807 wrote:Harvard...is not smart.

User avatar
JG Hall
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby JG Hall » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:20 am

2807 wrote: No one cares how intelligent you were in law school.

PS - This is not true. When you go to lateral, firms will ask for your ls transcript.

User avatar
2807
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:23 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby 2807 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:22 am

prezidentv8 wrote:
2807 wrote:Harvard...is not smart.

hahahahaha

tricky smart guy.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4855
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby Borhas » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:22 am

JG Hall wrote:No blending. You learn no black letter law at "decent" law schools. They trust that if you had enough in you to earn the grades in UG, and/or kill the LSAT, you probably manage cramming for the Bar on your own, too. That's why I found it funny that a transfer told me she really likes Class X because she got to concentrate on all this theory and horseshit. Welcome to the real law school, sweetie.


"decent" law schools teach people how to think

crappy law schools teach the law

but presumably people at "Decent" law schools already know how to think, and people at crappy law schools are too dum to apply the law anyway

not the most intuitive system out there

JG Hall wrote:
2807 wrote: No one cares how intelligent you were in law school.

PS - This is not true. When you go to lateral, firms will ask for your ls transcript.


lateraling is for TTT douchefucks who're too dum to make partner

User avatar
California Babe
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:45 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby California Babe » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:31 am

Helmholtz wrote:
kalvano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Of course intelligence and highly-ranked law schools are not mutually inclusive. Who implied that?


marshponds wrote:Of course they're harder. What makes an exam hard isn't the question being asked but the people against whom you are graded.


I don't think that's what that statement is implying. If marshponds comes back on and posts that, yes, he did intend his statement to mean that there is zero intelligence at any law school not highly ranked, then I will concede the point.


Your interpretation seems more realistic. We're talking about a large group of people you're being graded with, not the outliers who are much smarter/dumber than their classmates.

A further point here needs to be made, though, about "intelligence" and success in law school. It's possible for the LSAT (+ GPA, etc) to measure how well you will do in law school without it being a measurement of how intelligent you are. Someone who crushed the LSAT might not be more "intelligent" than their classmates, but they sure as hell might kick their butts on the exam, too.

Connelly
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:10 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby Connelly » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:10 am

There are two meanings of "difficulty" that are relevant to the thread. The first is what I would consider the objective difficulty of an exam. This would be the difference between an exam that only asked you to list the elements of battery and one that asked you to write an entirely new system of tort law (and your reasons for choosing such a system) for a new planet, the needs of which were laid out in the exam. There are different levels of thinking involved in each, yet both would require at least a minimal mastery of tort law. The second meaning of difficulty is how one's performance would stack up against the curve. If you take the same test (thus keeping the objective difficulty the same) in a class of Columbia students and a class of Cooley students, you will have a lower rank relative to others in the Columbia class than in the Cooley class.

Attending a T2, I have always assumed the exams at T14-25ish schools would, on average, be more difficult with respect to the first meaning. Without a doubt, they are more difficult under the second meaning. I have had a mix of what I would consider to be easy and difficult tests, and I by far prefer the difficult tests. An "easy" test means the curve is one big clump, and small errors here or there will move your grade quickly. I'd rather be asked to lay out everything I know while using the highest level of thinking that I can and be judged accordingly. I think that will provide more accurate grading. I would assume you would need more difficult exams as the difficulty of getting into the school increases to be able to separate students fairly.

Are there any good examples of exams or exam questions from some of the top schools? N=1 examples suck, but it would at least help in guiding the discussion by providing examples of what is difficult and hopefully advance this from assumptions and declarations.

User avatar
dresden doll
Posts: 6802
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby dresden doll » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:50 pm

kalvano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Of course intelligence and highly-ranked law schools are not mutually inclusive. Who implied that?


marshponds wrote:Of course they're harder. What makes an exam hard isn't the question being asked but the people against whom you are graded.


My God, those statements don't necessarily contradict one another at all.

Summary of the thread:

A: People at a T2 are as smart as people at a T14. I know this because there's smart people at my school and I've met high LSAT scorers who are very dumb.
B: While there are always outliers, average kid at a T14 is typically smarter than the average kid at a T2.
A: That's not true. There's smart people at my school and I've met high LSAT scorers who are very dumb.

Riveting.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby rayiner » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:14 pm

Using "smart" and "dumb" in this context is really pointless. How do you define these terms? Most PhDs in engineering are "smart" but probably wouldn't do that well on the LSAT. Most PhDs in philosophy would probably do well on the LSAT, but aren't really "smart."

The larger correlations people are trying to draw here are meaningless. The OP's question has nothing to do with "smart" versus "dumb". It has to do with the difficulty of law school exams at various schools. It's pretty obvious that exams at better schools will be more difficult. Law schools are segregated by LSAT, and the LSAT tests your ability to work quickly on highly stylized and artificial problems while maintaining logical accuracy. By and large, law school exams test this same skill, with the addition of a memory component.

User avatar
dresden doll
Posts: 6802
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby dresden doll » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:17 pm

rayiner wrote:It's pretty obvious that exams at better schools will be more difficult.


Iuno, I hear there are smart people at T2 and dumb ones at T14. Surely, that invalidates your entire argument.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby rayiner » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:31 pm

dresden doll wrote:
rayiner wrote:It's pretty obvious that exams at better schools will be more difficult.


Iuno, I hear there are smart people at T2 and dumb ones at T14. Surely, that invalidates your entire argument.


There are no doubt smart people at T2s and dumb people at T14s, but I have to wonder how this guy defines "smart" and "dumb." "Dude talks about Kantian realism!" = smart and "dude sits around and watches football" = dumb?

User avatar
nealric
Posts: 2395
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:53 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby nealric » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:54 am

Most of my evidence comes from transfers and profs who taught at other schools, but here is my experience:

Transfers from T3/T4s generally said that GULC exams were much more difficult. Such schools will have exams that rely heavily on multiple choice and even fill in the blank.

Transfers from T50s usually didn't find much of a difference.

I had a visiting prof who had taught at a T50ish school and gave us a copy of the exam she gave there. It was a piece of cake. The exam she gave at GULC was much, much more difficult in terms of question complexity and depth of knowledge required.


Of course, none of that is at all scientific.

LoriBelle
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:00 pm

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby LoriBelle » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:21 pm

The LSAT is *very* learnable (witness the LSAT prep forum), so it's not really that good of a measure of intelligence. What does it measure? Some combination of intelligence, dogged determination, luck, and ability to pay for an expensive LSAT prep course. Although there is a correlation between LSAT score and IQ, I don't think it's a direct relationship because so many factors are at play in a person's LSAT score.

As for the original question, I do think exams are probably harder at higher-ranked schools, if only because more highly qualified professors tend to end up at higher-ranked schools because the job market for law professors is hyper-competitive (much more so than law school admissions IMO) and higher-ranked schools tend to hire very highly qualified professors to begin with and poach particularly good professors from lower-ranked schools.

That said, students who are able to transfer up because they were highly ranked at their old school tend to end up top of the class at their new school as well, even if the school itself is a much more highly-ranked school. This seems to indicate that there is some sort of universality about what it takes to do well in law school, but I don't know how it reflects on the relative level of vigor at differently-ranked schools.

User avatar
shanemahsa
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:46 am

Re: Are law school finals roughly the same difficulty everywhere

Postby shanemahsa » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:28 pm

rayiner wrote:It's pretty obvious that exams at better schools will be more difficult.

/thread




Return to “Forum for Law School Students”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Justtrying2help, wg6524 and 14 guests