cases in outline?

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goosey
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cases in outline?

Postby goosey » Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:32 pm

Is this necessary? I hardly have any cases in my outlines--only major ones like int'l shoe, mottley, etc for civ pro..a few cases my torts professor spent a lot of time on or talks abt often..none in my crim outline.

I absolutely do not have every case or even half of the cases we've covered. Is this unwise?

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zeth006
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby zeth006 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:48 pm

Would like to know this too.

I've been popping mini-briefs after my rules along with a bit of analysis to go with them. I'm afraid my outline might grow too long.

Lion8974
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby Lion8974 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:14 pm

Disclaimer: Fellow 1L.

Do what works for you, but if you are interested to see what the norm is for your particular school go to http://www.outlinedepot.com and the school and corresponding course and "Preview" the outlines.

I haven't been putting cases in my outlines just the principle the professor wants us to take away from it.

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traehekat
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby traehekat » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:39 pm

I've just been putting the case name in parenthesis after the rule. I figure this will help kinda jog the memory that a particular case stands for a particular rule, and you then you can kind of compare and contrast the facts as necessary. We'll have to see how well I can recall the facts, though...

Braindead
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby Braindead » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:46 pm

I'm a 1L so take my words with a grain of salt. But it would be best to rely on your professor's method of teaching. I actually asked all my professors whether case names are relevant on the exam, and they have all said no. A student who remembers a case and applies it to an exam question will earn the same points as someone who applied the same rule but did not have the case name. Just my 2 cents.

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kalvano
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:00 pm

I will put cases in my outline, but not very detailed. More like this -

--- Civ Pro ---

Rules 7, 8

Iqbal v. Ashcroft -
* Iqbal sued - alleged he was detained specifically because of his race / religion / creed and alleged FBI policy of doing so.
* Partially overruled Conley.
* RULE - Mere concusory allegations in a complaint are not enough. Must be "probable", not merely "possible".
** Changed notice pleading standards.






Obviously, Iqbal was a big case, as was Twombly. I probably wouldn't spend as much space on something lesser.


Disclaimer - I read and retain exceptionally well. I can recall most important stuff by jogging my brain with that one line of fact. Put in more if you need to, but don't overload yourself.

Disclaimer 2 - I've heard that a lot of my profs give "bonus" points for correctly correlating cases with exam answers. Might as well do it, can't hurt.
Last edited by kalvano on Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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inchoate_con
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby inchoate_con » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:08 pm

1L also... although I did take Criminal law during the summer. I explicitly asked my bitch professor through email, in person and during class, if case names would or should be used on the exam. Of course, she said "no, it will do nothing to harm, hurt, or improve your grade." Four days before the exam, she starts this spiel about exam competitiveness, and then, proceeds to say something like: case references to rules and elements will separate the A+'s from the rest. After a bit of mouth vomiting and fantasies of punching her in the face, I asked her about it. She denied it. I, then, showed the email she wrote me... "oops, I was wrong." Thanks, bitch.

Anyhow, I do include them... for example, with adverse possession, I list the elements and the relevant cases. Additionally, I'll add the cases for the element/rule elaboration, too. Further, I add a generic response section. Someone wrote about it in the competition or blogs forums. Of course, I'm constantly reviewing and revising the outline as I do hypos. After a few times, I can remove the "exam spiel" section. For me, this helpful since writing the exam rather than analysis is the struggle.

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inchoate_con
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby inchoate_con » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:11 pm

kalvano wrote:--- Civ Pro ---

Rules 7, 8

Iqbal v. Ashcroft -
* Iqbal sued - alleged he was detained specifically because of his race / religion / creed and alleged FBI policy of doing so.
* Partially overruled Conley.
* RULE - Mere concusory allegations in a complaint are not enough. Must be "possible", not merely "probable".
** Changed notice pleading standards.

I wish this were all I needed for Civ Pro because it would be 50% of my entire outline. We've spent seven weeks on Iqbal and Twombly.

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stocksly33
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby stocksly33 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:21 pm

I just take a student's outline from last year, and copy/paste their case summaries into my outline... it's nice to have examples, and it's quick/easy.

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kalvano
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:23 pm

stocksly33 wrote:I just take a student's outline from last year, and copy/paste their case summaries into my outline... it's nice to have examples, and it's quick/easy.



That misses the point of outlining - the very act of making it is studying.

bleedcubbieblue
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby bleedcubbieblue » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:04 pm

kalvano wrote:
stocksly33 wrote:I just take a student's outline from last year, and copy/paste their case summaries into my outline... it's nice to have examples, and it's quick/easy.



That misses the point of outlining - the very act of making it is studying.


While this may be true, I don't think it's the most important part of an outline. Personally, I'm using an outline from a student last year but adding to it here and there as I go along. Every weekend I update that outline into flash card format and then go over them until I fall over (sort of). It's amazing how much I personally forget after one week if I don't keep on top of it this way, especially with all of the new material building on it.

The point is to memorize a good outline and have it down cold on test day. I don't think you can do that just by "making it."

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traehekat
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby traehekat » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:39 pm

bleedcubbieblue wrote:The point is to memorize a good outline and have it down cold on test day. I don't think you can do that just by "making it."


Memorizing an outline, even if it is the best outline ever created, is of little use if you don't know how to apply it.

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GeePee
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby GeePee » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:22 pm

kalvano wrote:RULE - Mere concusory allegations in a complaint are not enough. Must be "possible", not merely "probable".
** Changed notice pleading standards.

This doesn't really make sense. Maybe you mean "Must be 'plausible,' not merely possible?" Iqbal applied a code pleading standard rather than a notice pleading standard.

@OP- My understanding is that you should use cases in your outline (and, in turn, on your exams) when doing so would save you time and words. I can think of 2 good examples from Civ Pro off of the top of my head, and usually they're for cases where stating and applying a rule itself isn't particularly clean.

The first is Colorado River v. U.S. As we can tell by Clark v. Lacy, which decided to go ahead and interpret Colorado River as a 10-factor test with nonsensical loopholes such as including both "preventing duplicative litigation" and "preventing piecemeal litigation," the BLL of the case is hard to parse. Instead, just being able to cite Colorado River on the test, and then applying the rule from the case to the facts, will save you a lot of time and a lot of words if your exam is word limited.

Another good example is Erie v. Tompkins. The Court still hasn't a freaking clue how it should be interpreting or applying Erie, so how are us mere 1Ls going to extract clean, applicable BLL from it?

I think these are the times where having cases in your notes are most important. Otherwise, having the rules is going to be of much greater value to you.

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kalvano
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:18 pm

GeePee wrote:
kalvano wrote:RULE - Mere concusory allegations in a complaint are not enough. Must be "possible", not merely "probable".
** Changed notice pleading standards.

This doesn't really make sense. Maybe you mean "Must be 'plausible,' not merely possible?" Iqbal applied a code pleading standard rather than a notice pleading standard.



Oops. Mixed them up. Must be "probable", not merely "possible".

Iqbal still allows notice pleadings, but you can't simply throw out accusations. You must state things with sufficient facts as to nudge the allegations from "possible" to "probable".

bleedcubbieblue
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby bleedcubbieblue » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:30 pm

traehekat wrote:
bleedcubbieblue wrote:The point is to memorize a good outline and have it down cold on test day. I don't think you can do that just by "making it."


Memorizing an outline, even if it is the best outline ever created, is of little use if you don't know how to apply it.


Agreed - but you can't apply something you don't know :D

frost
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby frost » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:32 pm

2L, fwiw. Ask your professors what they expect on the final exam. I found this out the hard way last year-- I did my own outlines for every class and found out about 3 weeks before the end of classes that my Contracts prof wanted case citations in the exam. I know people say this is abnormal but I actually had three professors that wanted citations (Contracts, Torts, CivPro). Other professors don't care at all whether you refer to cases. Find out from your professors or from previous students, it'll save you from having to change your outline last minute.

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stocksly33
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby stocksly33 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:34 pm

kalvano wrote:
stocksly33 wrote:I just take a student's outline from last year, and copy/paste their case summaries into my outline... it's nice to have examples, and it's quick/easy.


That misses the point of outlining - the very act of making it is studying.


I completely agree. But I only said to copy/paste case summaries... not rules, nuances, policy, etc. Everyone knows what happens in the cases... no reason to reinvent the wheel and type out your own case summaries when you have an A+ outline that has already typed out case summaries.

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inchoate_con
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby inchoate_con » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:44 pm

traehekat wrote:
bleedcubbieblue wrote:Memorizing an outline, even if it is the best outline ever created, is of little use if you don't know how to apply it.

So true... while I memorize rules, it is probably the least important part. For me, writing out hypos is working. I am learning to apply law to facts, which obviously facilitates memorizing the elements. Most efficiency method I've tried, but I'm constantly looking to improve efficiency.

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traehekat
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby traehekat » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:56 pm

inchoate_con wrote:
traehekat wrote:
bleedcubbieblue wrote:Memorizing an outline, even if it is the best outline ever created, is of little use if you don't know how to apply it.

So true... while I memorize rules, it is probably the least important part. For me, writing out hypos is working. I am learning to apply law to facts, which obviously facilitates memorizing the elements. Most efficiency method I've tried, but I'm constantly looking to improve efficiency.


Completely agree that one of the best methods of memorization, if not THE best, is when it is coupled with application. As you do more problems, you eventually stop constantly looking back to see what the rule is, since you have applied it so many times. Eventually, the rule is more than just words. It becomes a tool.

--ImageRemoved--

Headybrah
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby Headybrah » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:16 pm

where you gettin all the hypos?

bleedcubbieblue
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby bleedcubbieblue » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:42 am

Headybrah wrote:where you gettin all the hypos?


I'd like to know as well. Are you guys using practice mid-terms off sites like Pepperdine or something different?

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inchoate_con
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby inchoate_con » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:40 pm

Headybrah wrote:where you gettin all the hypos?

Legit question.

Started with EE's, Emmanuel crunch-time, Gilbert's outlines, Ace series, Prof's old exams, other schools prof's exams (check the sticky thread). Additionally, I learned to be creative - change fact patterns of the cases I'm reading, would the outcome change? Look to the news -> my favorite is adverse possession, with all the squatters and boundary disputes, you're gonna find plenty.

Real life examples are a tremendous tool. For example, with Criminal law, I thought of my kids to learn actus reus and mens rea. If the dishes do not get done, younger kid is probably negligent - no intent - BUT apply the law to the facts for the result, older kid, straight up malevolent intent - purposely creates a scheme to get out of it, which leads to policy issues, blah, blah... and eventually a felony-murder charge. Using examples I care about were unbelievably helpful, particularly with policy.

rynabrius
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby rynabrius » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:00 pm

Why would you include cases in outlines? 1) Because the professor says it will give you points if you cite a case with a rule. In that case, include them. 2) Because they will jog your memory and thus help you on the exam, in that case, include them. 3) Because there are peculiarities in the law which are best embodied by not abstracting too far from the case. In that case, include them. 4) There might be other reasons.

The general point I am trying to make is that no general answer will tell you whether to include a specific case. Just think through the rationale for including or not including a case and you should be fine.

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Amy wineBerry
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby Amy wineBerry » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:54 pm

My contract's professor gave us some great exam taking tips today in regards to studying and outlining. He said first, we should read the cases as assigned. Then a little later in the semester, read through them again. After, create a detailed outline, paying attention as to what counts as an issue and how the issues fit together. Focus on ONE issue at a time. This will teach how to develop the skill of looking at one issue without thinking about all simultaneously. After, give each case a "read" through, or that is go through the cases and try to remember the general fact situations, making special note of ambiguities/gray areas. Although we don't need to know the names of the cases for the exam, we'll have a general description to compare fact patterns too, which is something he emphasizes we should do. Granted, our contracts book is pretty good, and the bigger cases are easily memorable. Don't know if this will help you guys, but I wanted to share what may be some useful advise.

kalvano wrote:I will put cases in my outline, but not very detailed. More like this -

--- Civ Pro ---

Rules 7, 8

Iqbal v. Ashcroft -
* Iqbal sued - alleged he was detained specifically because of his race / religion / creed and alleged FBI policy of doing so.
* Partially overruled Conley.
* RULE - Mere concusory allegations in a complaint are not enough. Must be "probable", not merely "possible".
** Changed notice pleading standards.


Sweeeeet, I like this. I am playing with formats now. May be utilizing this. Right now, I'm doing this:

Rule (BLL)
Case title
Issue in case
Facts to issue in case
Brief notes about case
Exceptions to rule
Ambiguities in rule

I'll also have flow charts.

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goosey
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Re: cases in outline?

Postby goosey » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:04 pm

out of curiousity, what program do you use for flowcharts?
id like to make some but am technologically challenged




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