how long are your outlines thus far?

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Doritos
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby Doritos » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:48 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
OK--- If the chick is really bad I usually come in somewhere around 7.5 inches. Nothing spectacular but it gets the job done.


Your penis size depends on the woman?

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BruceWayne
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:53 pm

Doritos wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
OK--- If the chick is really bad I usually come in somewhere around 7.5 inches. Nothing spectacular but it gets the job done.


Your penis size depends on the woman?


Definitely! If she's lukewarm it's hard to get....well really hard! See how much more you're learning from this than those boring practice tests! :lol:

smizmar
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby smizmar » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:57 pm

Also, I have generally found that the things gone over in the first, say, two weeks of class is the least tested. A lot of times the information is just building blocks (elements of a crime for crim, etc.). I'll echo the advice to wait. One of the most important things you can do is learn to look at the material with a wide-angle lens. That's almost impossible at this point.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:00 pm

53 pages between 4 classes MWUAHAHAHAHA

Dman
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby Dman » Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:20 pm

I am 2L outlining nerd, I love to outline and it is the main way I study. As a 1L, I outlined steadily over the semester and tried several different approaches to it. My methodology on outlining and material organization is like making a nice tight snowball, you scoop up as much snow as you can handle and pack it down, shape it in a perfect sphere. I just keep packing snow and shaping for the entire semester, in the end, the core was rock solid and had a very polished piece of work.

Here is some generalizations that I garnered from my expereince:

1) Outlining completely on your own, starting from scratch, takes way more time and provided no extra benefit over making over an old student outline. The only time such a strategy has ever help is with product liability in torts since I felt all materials that I found were poorly organized to include, my CB, old outlines, E&E and other random supplements. In the end it took me 3 versions of this section to get it in a format usable on exams. I easily had 40+ hours of outlining just on Product liability.

2) I found having a rough outline or a pieced apart old student outline before class, made class easier to follow and made for better precision in my final product. I essentially outlined in class to put exact rule statements from the Prof's mouth into my outline. The classes I did this in, I felt I had a better handle on the big picture early on.

3) Going over notes and my rough class outline at the end of the week, helped me polish material while it was fresh. I noticed the longer I slacked in a class, the harder it was to recall exact reasoning behind some of the nuance. A weekly polish made the material easier for me to handle. it also made it cleaner to go back to in class when Prof's try to tie in later issues into earlier material. I knew exactly where to look, again making class more enjoyable since I was not lost.

4) About 3 weeks before the end of the semester, I polished my outline again and condensed it into pure rule/application format. This acted as a very good review, but it was not stressful or time consuming since I rarely cracked any books, I worked purely off my prior version. I felt I had a much better work product than my classmates with low stress and more time as finals approached (my work habits never changed).

5) since I had a very organized outline and time as finals approached, I really got into taking practice tests. I learned you should save your prof's practice tests till the course is over so you get the biggest bang for your buck (this is even more important if there is very limited tests available). However, I also believe you should select 1 test mid semester to do a full, polished write up and have your prof grade it. It is important to do this early, so 1) you learn what the prof likes to see and can tailor your outline and writing to fit the requirements; and 2) many profs will not have time near the end of the semester to grade a full exam but will do so early on.

That being said, I would start mid semester doing occasional write ups of E &E hypos, and other prof's exams that cover the material. If you can find a like minded person or two to exchange ideas with, that will help as well. You can gain alot from looking at others write ups. I would not kill yourself on this, but I felt that knowing the material and actually spitting it out in a coherent format was two different things. These write ups allowed me to tweak the flow of my outline to match how I would write out issues on an exam. Basically in the end, my outline format was how I would attack fact patterns. The strong structure and format worked very well on test day and was able to spend my time analyzing facts rather than working on flow/format.


All in all, I spent 8-10 hours a day on law school stuff, and 10-12 hours every weekend. If you add that time up, I probably spent more time than most students, but it was spread out over the semester. I like the big picture and can't memorize to save my life (all my exams were closed book), so working the material long term was key. I was pleased with my results.

Good luck on surviving 1L, it seems worse than it really is.

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savagedm
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby savagedm » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:49 pm

disco_barred wrote:
dakatz wrote:The length of your outline is irrelevant. It is all about putting in whatever level of detail YOU need to remember the law, jog your memory about the relevant cases, and see the big picture.


+1

For the record, my longest ever was 30 pages, and I was most proud of my 10-15 pagers. A lot of the challenge of law school is filtering the wheat from the endless fields of hypothetical, fact sensitive, alternative interpretation chaff.


This. I noticed people have dozens of pages of notes already for each class (they are typing pretty much the whole time the professor is talking). I don't get this... shouldnt they be listening and synthesizing the concepts rather than trying to throw so much shit against the wall that they hope most of it sticks? I've already seen some BAD nervous wrecks who are so afraid of failure that they are literally shaking half the time they are studying. It's really quite entertaining.

tingles
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby tingles » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:56 pm

you all crack me up.

charlesjd
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby charlesjd » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:02 pm

.
Last edited by charlesjd on Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

democrattotheend
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby democrattotheend » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:54 pm

Isn't it a little early to be outlining? I was thinking about starting, but thought it might be too early.

I may start outlining torts soon, since I feel like we have covered a lot of cases and I have notes from different sources (briefs, class notes, TA review sessions, etc) and it might be a good idea to organize it all into one place.

Is it best to outline as I go or do it towards the end so that putting it together serves as a refresher?

Like the OP of another thread, I feel like I am not spending as much time studying as my classmates and I don't know whether that means I am slacking or just study smarter.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:58 pm

GeePee wrote:Discussing penis length would be more useful than this.



Are you a splitter?

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worldtraveler
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby worldtraveler » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:25 pm

STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING. Seriously, it's not helpful for anyone. If you're worried about your progress and whether you're getting what you're supposed to, talk to your prof, or maybe a 2L or 3L.

Dman
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby Dman » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:37 pm

betasteve wrote:
Dman wrote:
1) Outlining completely on your own, starting from scratch, takes way more time and provided no extra benefit over making over an old student outline.

Absolute opposite from me. I don't outline to have the outline, it's my way of locking it in my brain, to memorize it. So, if I had someone else's outline, I'd have to type that fucking thing anyway... I'd rather do it myself than trust someone else or where the material has changed...


I think you misunderstand me. I am not trusting anyone. When I say making over an old outline is, I take an outline, cut out the relevant section in to my notes. I then ,add, delete and restructure. In the end I have my own product but it is reverse engineered and improved from prior models. Additionally, It saves time in that most outlines generally follow the book (not always the best for application) and gives me starting point. It takes considerable amount of time to start from nothing, since it requires a creative process that I just don't possess.

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MrKappus
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby MrKappus » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:41 pm

Image

JohnWild
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby JohnWild » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:43 pm

How are you all that are taking practice tests even getting feedback? It seems counterproductive to just be taking them for the heck of it with no feedback.

dakatz
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby dakatz » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:47 pm

There is no reason to start practice exams this early. We are just starting this whole law school thing and we have learned very little of the whole. Those exams are based on everything we will learn all wrapped up into one. What do expect to do? Just write about the issues relating to stuff you learned? You might as well do the E&E's or get some of those study flashcards if you plan on focusing on those isolated small issues (since you would obviously be unable to properly attack the whole). Sure, you will strike absolute fear into your fellow students if you said "Oh yeah, I've already started with practice exams", but you aren't helping yourself one bit by doing so this early. Unless your prof has a ton of exams on file, you want to save each and every one for when you can get the most out of them.

RP1983
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby RP1983 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:55 am

betasteve wrote:
goosey wrote:just want to make sure I'm not going into unnecc detail or conversely, not enough detail.

All intentional torts are done and the outline is 7 pages

up to personal jurisdiction in civpro (consent, general person, specific personal, notice, venue and constitutional tenets) is 5 pages

my crim law outline isnt up to date yet but interested in seeing what other ppl have that have started outlines already

^ Doing it wrong.
rad law wrote:Right now? 0 pages.

^ Doing it right.


Betasteve, since you seem to be reputable on here I wanted to ask you this. When is a good time to start outlining and what kind of information needs to go in it? I have a midterm in about 3 weeks so I will start outlining for that class soon.

Also, since you seem to know alot about torts, a random torts question. With regards to transferred intent, which intentional torts does it apply to?

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lbeezy
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby lbeezy » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:59 am

dakatz wrote:There is no reason to start practice exams this early. We are just starting this whole law school thing and we have learned very little of the whole. Those exams are based on everything we will learn all wrapped up into one. What do expect to do? Just write about the issues relating to stuff you learned? You might as well do the E&E's or get some of those study flashcards if you plan on focusing on those isolated small issues (since you would obviously be unable to properly attack the whole). Sure, you will strike absolute fear into your fellow students if you said "Oh yeah, I've already started with practice exams", but you aren't helping yourself one bit by doing so this early. Unless your prof has a ton of exams on file, you want to save each and every one for when you can get the most out of them.


No. They will laugh at you. You won't notice 90% of the issues, making it an incredibly frustrating waste of time for you. Your classmates will mock you and you will deserve it.

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RUQRU
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby RUQRU » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:43 am

This topic is starting to remind me of the infamous "what is the best backpack to carry my lunch to law school" thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77649

To think that there is some best length for a law class outline is, upon reflection, inane.

Assuming that you have gone through, at least, undergraduate you have 20 years of schooling behind you. Some may even have real-life work experience in the corporate world or government. You have to ask yourself, "do I not have enough security in knowledge of myself to know what I need to do to learn something?"

No one can answer this question but you. Do what you need to do to learn and do not be so concerned about what others are doing that you are not. Why would believe, absent 100% document edproof (a transcript) that any of your classmates has any better sense of what you should be doing than you? Even with such proof, every person has different skills and learning styles. There are literally thousands of studies (probably funded with money stolen from taxpayers) on learning styles that demonstrate this simple fact.

Live your own life. Run your own race. Free your mind...

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savagedm
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby savagedm » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:10 pm

RUQRU wrote:This topic is starting to remind me of the infamous "what is the best backpack to carry my lunch to law school" thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77649

To think that there is some best length for a law class outline is, upon reflection, inane.

Assuming that you have gone through, at least, undergraduate you have 20 years of schooling behind you. Some may even have real-life work experience in the corporate world or government. You have to ask yourself, "do I not have enough security in knowledge of myself to know what I need to do to learn something?"

No one can answer this question but you. Do what you need to do to learn and do not be so concerned about what others are doing that you are not. Why would believe, absent 100% document edproof (a transcript) that any of your classmates has any better sense of what you should be doing than you? Even with such proof, every person has different skills and learning styles. There are literally thousands of studies (probably funded with money stolen from taxpayers) on learning styles that demonstrate this simple fact.

Live your own life. Run your own race. Free your mind...


There is no spoon.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:42 pm

betasteve wrote:
Doritos wrote:
LurkerNoMore wrote:
goosey wrote:

curious about this.

what are the cons of outlining as you finish a section? and what are the pros about doing it towards the end



Because it is it the act of outlining, not the outline that is most valuable. Doing the outline now means that you will be passively going over the outline when it comes time to study for exams. For some people this is enough (though if you are one of them, then you might as well use someone else's outline from the beginning and just annotate it). Generally, though, the act of outlining at the end of the semester is a way of synthesizing the material and thinking about it holistically.


That sounds like cramming to me. Why not think holistically about the subject matter all semester, actively learning it, then just take a ton of practice exams while everyone else is outlining?

LOL.... Not cramming. Or even if it is, it's only cramming by name. I didn't start outlining until thanksgiving break, and had like 1.5-2 wks to review it and take practice tests (except for class I lost outline in.. fucking computer)..

You are doing a semester of review that much closer to the final. You will synthesis better, and more efficiently if you do it this way, imo.

synthesize, dude, synthesize

/journal douche

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savagedm
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby savagedm » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:19 pm

betasteve wrote:
RP1983 wrote:
Betasteve, since you seem to be reputable on here I wanted to ask you this. When is a good time to start outlining and what kind of information needs to go in it? I have a midterm in about 3 weeks so I will start outlining for that class soon.

Also, since you seem to know alot about torts, a random torts question. With regards to transferred intent, which intentional torts does it apply to?

What worked for me: I started about 3/4 of the way through the semester, and ended about a week to week and a half before finals starts. As far as what type of info, in my outlines there is usually a small paragraph of facts (especially where you'd need facts to do analysis, like personal jx), the holding in my own words and made as general as the facts/interpretation will allow, and then maybe a little policy below it if necessary. FOr me it was a mix of class notes and stuff from the book. Relevance, here, is sort of an amorphous definition, you just have to have what is relevant based on what your prof has called attention to.

As far as transferred intent... any sufficient intent transfers to any other intentional tort, except nothing transfer to or from IIED.


The question is, what kind of new drinking games did you learn in your first year? I've only learned a couple new ones, am I behind? Will I not be able to keep up at Bar Reviews unless I study and find more games to introduce?

RP1983
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby RP1983 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:41 pm

savagedm wrote:
betasteve wrote:
RP1983 wrote:
Betasteve, since you seem to be reputable on here I wanted to ask you this. When is a good time to start outlining and what kind of information needs to go in it? I have a midterm in about 3 weeks so I will start outlining for that class soon.

Also, since you seem to know alot about torts, a random torts question. With regards to transferred intent, which intentional torts does it apply to?

What worked for me: I started about 3/4 of the way through the semester, and ended about a week to week and a half before finals starts. As far as what type of info, in my outlines there is usually a small paragraph of facts (especially where you'd need facts to do analysis, like personal jx), the holding in my own words and made as general as the facts/interpretation will allow, and then maybe a little policy below it if necessary. FOr me it was a mix of class notes and stuff from the book. Relevance, here, is sort of an amorphous definition, you just have to have what is relevant based on what your prof has called attention to.

As far as transferred intent... any sufficient intent transfers to any other intentional tort, except nothing transfer to or from IIED.


The question is, what kind of new drinking games did you learn in your first year? I've only learned a couple new ones, am I behind? Will I not be able to keep up at Bar Reviews unless I study and find more games to introduce?


I went to college, what else is there to learn? Its all about beer pong, quarters, and mario kart. Yes mario kart.

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savagedm
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Re: how long are your outlines thus far?

Postby savagedm » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:43 pm

RP1983 wrote:
savagedm wrote:
betasteve wrote:
RP1983 wrote:
Betasteve, since you seem to be reputable on here I wanted to ask you this. When is a good time to start outlining and what kind of information needs to go in it? I have a midterm in about 3 weeks so I will start outlining for that class soon.

Also, since you seem to know alot about torts, a random torts question. With regards to transferred intent, which intentional torts does it apply to?

What worked for me: I started about 3/4 of the way through the semester, and ended about a week to week and a half before finals starts. As far as what type of info, in my outlines there is usually a small paragraph of facts (especially where you'd need facts to do analysis, like personal jx), the holding in my own words and made as general as the facts/interpretation will allow, and then maybe a little policy below it if necessary. FOr me it was a mix of class notes and stuff from the book. Relevance, here, is sort of an amorphous definition, you just have to have what is relevant based on what your prof has called attention to.

As far as transferred intent... any sufficient intent transfers to any other intentional tort, except nothing transfer to or from IIED.



The question is, what kind of new drinking games did you learn in your first year? I've only learned a couple new ones, am I behind? Will I not be able to keep up at Bar Reviews unless I study and find more games to introduce?


I went to college, what else is there to learn? Its all about beer pong, quarters, and mario kart. Yes mario kart.



One Word: Battleshots




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