In which we complain about HelLRW

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neimanmarxist
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby neimanmarxist » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:22 pm

BaiAilian2013 wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:
clintonius wrote:Man, that's fucking brutal. Is that your lawyering class or the entire section? And, how could it have been THAT bad?

Our Lawyering class. Our prof said in the e-mail, "the memos weren't that bad, many of you simply failed to find the seminal case in this issue." But when we were in our prof's office discussing a completely different topic, it was said "the class's interview skills are definitely great, I don't know if I can say the same about the legal writing abilities."

Essentially we're full of fail.

:shock: Dude. But I agree, you're full of priorities. The Title VII thing?


Winners of the "Lawyering with Style" award.

Thank GOD it's not graded.

keg411
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby keg411 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:32 pm

I'd like to reiterate that I really don't like my legal writing TA's. Yes, because I got a citing rule right and you got it wrong means I'm asking "friends" for "help" :roll: :roll: :roll: .

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Stanford4Me
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Stanford4Me » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:38 am

BaiAilian2013 wrote: :shock: Dude. But I agree, you're full of priorities. The Title VII thing?

Yeah. Our prof later explained she had us re-do it because a lot of us didn't find everything we needed to find to go forward with this counseling project we're working on. So, I guess in the long run it will pay off.

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stratocophic
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby stratocophic » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:58 am

wiseowl wrote:
savagecheater wrote:So, I received a LW assignment back -

With exception of "Thesis statement is very strong, it'd be perfect with a cite right after.", I received no remotely critical remarks on the assignment. None. All the rest were quite positive.

Scroll down to the grade.

B

I mean, really? If you're going to effectively say that I did 'middling' work, show me where it is. Out of 19 different comments, one was 'negative'.

My LW professor is very approachable though, so I'm going in to talk to them about this. This just seems absurd.


LOL yep, welcome to the party. Get used to it! I wrote memos that federal judges later told me were among the best they read that year and it was...median or worse.

When you teach everyone how to write exactly the same way, force Bluebook down their throats, and even tell them which authority to use, how do you then put the 25 or 30 of them on a curve? It's lunacy.
--ImageRemoved--
Srsly. I'd rather my professor just threw my open memo into a fire instead of giving it back to me. I'm terrified. And over what? A class that only counts 1/2 as much as a substantive class, is 1/2 the size of my smallest substantive class (resulting in a curve that will be pure raep), is 1/4 the size of my other 2 classes, and can take up twice the amount of time per week that any of those other classes require. AYFKM.

theantiscalia
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby theantiscalia » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:06 am

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Last edited by theantiscalia on Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

uci2013
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby uci2013 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:31 am

klussy wrote:
danidancer wrote:My prof/TAs found something to critique in every single sentence. every. single. sentence. WTF. I'm a good writer, I swear! Or at least I used to be.


This.

This is why I hate LRW. My prof crossed out "criteria" and wrote "element". What fucking difference does that make? They're synonyms. This class sucks so many balls.


Actually element and factor are both key words for memos and it is important to know the difference between the two. The problem with criteria is that it isn't clear if criteria is a factor or an element. But Y - my first memo I was dinged a bit for not using consistent phrasing. Even when words are completely synonymous, they want us to be consistent in our phrasing and to use very specific phraseology.

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jack duluoz
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby jack duluoz » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:45 pm

anyone else have a memo that involves the US and another country? i've spent the past week trying to figure out the rule. FML.

theantiscalia
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby theantiscalia » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:33 pm

wiseowl wrote:
savagecheater wrote:So, I received a LW assignment back -

With exception of "Thesis statement is very strong, it'd be perfect with a cite right after.", I received no remotely critical remarks on the assignment. None. All the rest were quite positive.

Scroll down to the grade.

B

I mean, really? If you're going to effectively say that I did 'middling' work, show me where it is. Out of 19 different comments, one was 'negative'.

My LW professor is very approachable though, so I'm going in to talk to them about this. This just seems absurd.


LOL yep, welcome to the party. Get used to it! I wrote memos that federal judges later told me were among the best they read that year and it was...median or worse.

When you teach everyone how to write exactly the same way, force Bluebook down their throats, and even tell them which authority to use, how do you then put the 25 or 30 of them on a curve? It's lunacy.


I agree. I've done well... for the first big memo and revision, I have the class "model memo"... but I still think it is completely random. I read a close friend's memo and thought it was better than mine, but he got a solid B.

I think it largely comes down to (a) organization, (b) the ability to draw solid synthesis from the cases, and (c) a knack for writing concisely. I don't think it has a lot to do with the ability to write well. Some of my classmates that used to be journalists or english majors aren't doing so hot.

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klussy
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby klussy » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:01 pm

uci2013 wrote:
klussy wrote:
danidancer wrote:My prof/TAs found something to critique in every single sentence. every. single. sentence. WTF. I'm a good writer, I swear! Or at least I used to be.


This.

This is why I hate LRW. My prof crossed out "criteria" and wrote "element". What fucking difference does that make? They're synonyms. This class sucks so many balls.


Actually element and factor are both key words for memos and it is important to know the difference between the two. The problem with criteria is that it isn't clear if criteria is a factor or an element. But Y - my first memo I was dinged a bit for not using consistent phrasing. Even when words are completely synonymous, they want us to be consistent in our phrasing and to use very specific phraseology.


this was actually helpful

Melkaba
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Melkaba » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:17 pm

Count me in on the Post-Memo Blues. And yeah, our class is graded on a curve.

Pretty depressing to get a Memo back slightly below median when you've busted your ass on it and at least have some confidence in being a good writer (I guess at this point, probably not a good legal writer).

The real "Screw this, man!" moment came when I looked at the recent oral presentation scores. "Good job on getting 56/60 on the presentation! MEDIAN." At that point, I just threw my arms in the air saying "This is absolutely ****ing hopeless". Cue the entire "Why in the world am I in law school just to incur debt w/ no job, /self, etc, etc." I'll be okay in a day or so, but seriously, man. At this point, I have a world's more confidence in my substantive classes (where I've gotten good feeback on practice exam answers and good grades on weekly quizzes) than LW. God, what a downer.

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beach_terror
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby beach_terror » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:19 pm

The above is pretty sadistic. I feel for you hombre.

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savagedm
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby savagedm » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:24 pm

My legal writing professor passed our memos back last week. The highest grade was an A- out of both of his sections. On top of that, I got slightly below the median and he completely misread one of my principle arguments for one of his questions asked. I looked over it thinking I might have worded it improperly or something, but sure enough, in looking at it the only way he could have possibly interpreted it that way would have been if he were drunk or simply not paying attention (several classmates had similar sentiments when they looked at it). I dont get this guy, but I'm going to meet with him next week to try and figure this crap out.... I honestly think legal writing is just there to kill your self esteem just a little bit extra your first year. Half of the stuff we learned was useful, but could have been taught elsewhere and far quicker. Sadly, I go to the best LRW school in the country (kind of like saying you're the fastest fat kid).

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Helmholtz
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:44 pm

I think LRW is there to show us the dark side of legal academia.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:56 pm

Is it just me, or is telling someone that a paragraph doesn't "flow" the absolute most vague and fucking lazy way of telling them...I don't even know what because its such a fucking vague term!

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:45 pm

Kobe_Teeth wrote:Is it just me, or is telling someone that a paragraph doesn't "flow" the absolute most vague and fucking lazy way of telling them...I don't even know what because its such a fucking vague term!

Check in the book Legal Writing in Plain English or maybe it's called Plain English for Lawyers--I can't remember. They have a very useful section on writing paragraphs with clarity. They say that every sentence in the paragraph should have the same subject followed as closely as possible by a concrete action verb. They explain that when you need a new subject, you need a new paragraph.

I have found this useful in my journal assignments because clarity of paragraphs means clarity of pages (generally), and clarity of pages means clarity of document. I found that book really helpful--far more helpful than the vague comment "this paragraph doesn't flow." However, I think finding your own answer to the question, "What does she fucking mean?" is what law school is really about.

They will lead you into the forest, give you vague descriptions of the way back out, but only you can find your way.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:06 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote: However, I think finding your own answer to the question, "What does she fucking mean?" is what law school is really about.

They will lead you into the forest, give you vague descriptions of the way back out, but only you can find your way.


Thank you for the help. And I definitely agree that law school is about taking all kinds of info and piecing it together yourself.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:10 pm

I dont get Legal Writing. I thought my Closed Memo was horrid, and it turned out good. I recently had a conference about my Open memo which I thought was so bad I was afraid to put it in my prof's mailbox for review, sure enough when I came to the conference I was told I have no major errors and the minor ones I do have are easy fixes. I am not making this up, my open memo is HORRIBLE, it sounds like gibberish thrown together and held together by scotch tape. I would be embarrassed to use it as my writing example in my resume. Then I have small essay assignments where I think I nail it and I get back a paper that says "adequate" and the prof's comments say I could explain the law more from a layman's point of view. I thought memo's were for lawyer's eyes, why in the world do I need to write for a layman? Idk, this class annoys the hell out of me, and I am not even going to start with the Bluebook...

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kalvano
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby kalvano » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:30 pm

What the fuckity fuck?

Every memo we've done so far has been based on about 2-4 paragraphs of facts. Now, our open memo is like 14 pages.

Fuck you, LRW.

dakatz
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby dakatz » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:37 pm

Not sure if a single person in my section got any level of an A for our first memo assignment, so I guess I wasn't too down about getting a B+. This is especially true since my first memo had some pretty big holes that my professor said I should have addressed. Finishing up final draft of 2nd memo now and feel much better about it. His comments on the first draft were quite positive and I feel like I can read what he wants a bit better than before. An A- on this one would feel pretty good. Fingers crossed.

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IAFG
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby IAFG » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:38 pm

Helmholtz wrote:I think LRW is there to show us the dark side of legal academia.

the sweatshop doc review equivalent of being a prof?

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Helmholtz
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:46 am

IAFG wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:I think LRW is there to show us the dark side of legal academia.

the sweatshop doc review equivalent of being a prof?


spot on

They reek of despair and long for respect, but the world will have none of that.

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wiseowl
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby wiseowl » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:56 am

kalvano wrote:What the fuckity fuck?

Every memo we've done so far has been based on about 2-4 paragraphs of facts. Now, our open memo is like 14 pages.

Fuck you, LRW.


its karma for your avatar change

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stocksly33
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby stocksly33 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:23 am

I've been doing barely above the bare minimum in my substantive classes for the last 2 weeks, due to this fucking memo and my early LRW exam. And I've got one more week of feeling guilty about not supp/hypo'ing my substantive classes... then LRW is slain.

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Borhas
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Borhas » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:01 pm

LWR wasn't that bad, seriously school's not that bad, quit bitching all of you (who are bitching)

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wiseowl
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby wiseowl » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:16 pm

Borhas wrote:LWR wasn't that bad, seriously school's not that bad, quit bitching all of you (who are bitching)


outed as adcom




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