In which we complain about HelLRW

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traehekat
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby traehekat » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:18 pm

dakatz wrote:There is no need for this class to be graded. It is expected that everyone will be inexperienced and fairly weak at legal writing at first. It shouldn't be a competition or pressure-situation to get it right quickly. We aren't lawyers yet, and we should have the time to develop this essential skill at the pace that best suits our learning/writing styles. That is why it seems so logical to do it pass/fail. The professors can still give us full feedback and tell us how we did and how we can improve without grades on LRW assignments.


couldn't agree more.

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LAWYER2
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby LAWYER2 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:43 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:We have had a lot of writing assignments and have only received feedback on one of the assignments, which was very limited in nature. Now we're working on drafting an argument for a motion to dismiss and all of the feedback we have gotten so far has been from peers - i.e. people who have no clue what they're doing.

This class takes up SO MUCH TIME. Also, I hate the blue book.




THIS

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danidancer
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby danidancer » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:56 pm

Nauseous just thinking about getting my "non-graded" closed memo back tomorrow. I've never doubted my writing before, but for some reason I'm just so scared that all the obsessive work I put into it was for naught. What makes it worse is that we're just getting amorphous comments on the memos, but no grades. But of course the class itself is graded and curved. :roll:

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Stanford4Me
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Stanford4Me » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:26 pm

Our class as a whole did so horrible on an open memo that we have to redo the assignment.

New York UniversiTTTy School of Law at its best!

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dailygrind
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby dailygrind » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:47 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:Our class as a whole did so horrible on an open memo that we have to redo the assignment.

New York UniversiTTTy School of Law at its best!


lol. sounds like you guys know how to prioritize.

keg411
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby keg411 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:50 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:Our class as a whole did so horrible on an open memo that we have to redo the assignment.

New York UniversiTTTy School of Law at its best!


Ungraded LRW?

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JazzOne
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby JazzOne » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:52 pm

dailygrind wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:Our class as a whole did so horrible on an open memo that we have to redo the assignment.

New York UniversiTTTy School of Law at its best!


lol. sounds like you guys know how to prioritize.

+1

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Stanford4Me
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Stanford4Me » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:57 pm

keg411 wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:Our class as a whole did so horrible on an open memo that we have to redo the assignment.

New York UniversiTTTy School of Law at its best!


Ungraded LRW?

Yeah. Pass/fail. The majority of us were focusing on our first practice problems handed out by our Contracts and CivPro professors.

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clintonius
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby clintonius » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:58 pm

Man, that's fucking brutal. Is that your lawyering class or the entire section? And, how could it have been THAT bad?

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traehekat
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby traehekat » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:35 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:Our class as a whole did so horrible on an open memo that we have to redo the assignment.

New York UniversiTTTy School of Law at its best!


haha oh man that is nuts. i would be livid.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Stanford4Me » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:37 pm

clintonius wrote:Man, that's fucking brutal. Is that your lawyering class or the entire section? And, how could it have been THAT bad?

Our Lawyering class. Our prof said in the e-mail, "the memos weren't that bad, many of you simply failed to find the seminal case in this issue." But when we were in our prof's office discussing a completely different topic, it was said "the class's interview skills are definitely great, I don't know if I can say the same about the legal writing abilities."

Essentially we're full of fail.

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danidancer
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby danidancer » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:46 pm

My prof/TAs found something to critique in every single sentence. every. single. sentence. WTF. I'm a good writer, I swear! Or at least I used to be.

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klussy
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby klussy » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:39 pm

danidancer wrote:My prof/TAs found something to critique in every single sentence. every. single. sentence. WTF. I'm a good writer, I swear! Or at least I used to be.


This.

This is why I hate LRW. My prof crossed out "criteria" and wrote "element". What fucking difference does that make? They're synonyms. This class sucks so many balls.

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SmittenMitten
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby SmittenMitten » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:25 pm

klussy wrote:
danidancer wrote:My prof/TAs found something to critique in every single sentence. every. single. sentence. WTF. I'm a good writer, I swear! Or at least I used to be.


This.

This is why I hate LRW. My prof crossed out "criteria" and wrote "element". What fucking difference does that make? They're synonyms. This class sucks so many balls.



+100.

My prof. crossed out things and replaced them with words that didn't even make sense. I also heard of another student getting a paper back with "varies" crossed out...with the note "This is wishy-washy"

jdhonest
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby jdhonest » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:04 pm

klussy wrote:
danidancer wrote:My prof/TAs found something to critique in every single sentence. every. single. sentence. WTF. I'm a good writer, I swear! Or at least I used to be.


This.

This is why I hate LRW. My prof crossed out "criteria" and wrote "element". What fucking difference does that make? They're synonyms. This class sucks so many balls.


A lot of time, when seemingly synonymous words are replaced, it's because one of the words is a term of art or denotes a certain connotation in the legal world. Personally, after only a year of law school and a little work this summer, I don't consider element and criteria to be the same (AT ALL). In fact, I don't even consider it to be nit-picky to distinguish between the two words. This isn't meant to sound patronizing, but it's a pretty good example of how law school will shape how you view the usage of certain words.

LRW does suck, and a support group is helpful/fun, but the course will improve your writing, and you will grow to be grateful for it.

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JazzOne
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby JazzOne » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:38 am

jdhonest wrote:
klussy wrote:
danidancer wrote:My prof/TAs found something to critique in every single sentence. every. single. sentence. WTF. I'm a good writer, I swear! Or at least I used to be.


This.

This is why I hate LRW. My prof crossed out "criteria" and wrote "element". What fucking difference does that make? They're synonyms. This class sucks so many balls.


A lot of time, when seemingly synonymous words are replaced, it's because one of the words is a term of art or denotes a certain connotation in the legal world. Personally, after only a year of law school and a little work this summer, I don't consider element and criteria to be the same (AT ALL). In fact, I don't even consider it to be nit-picky to distinguish between the two words. This isn't meant to sound patronizing, but it's a pretty good example of how law school will shape how you view the usage of certain words.

LRW does suck, and a support group is helpful/fun, but the course will improve your writing, and you will grow to be grateful for it.

+1

I was going to post something like this, but I forgot. The term "element" has a very specific meaning in legal writing, and synonyms should not be used in its place. Some of these things may seem nit picky now, but once you all get onto some journals and read more legal writing, you'll see that these conventions were not made up by your professors.

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wiseowl
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby wiseowl » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:28 am

Yep. Criteria and elements aren't the same thing. These are the types of things you learn in LRW.

That being said, it shouldn't be graded, and while people think I'm joking, that should be a not insignificant factor in your school choice.

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Helmholtz
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:07 am

wiseowl wrote:That being said, it shouldn't be graded, and while people think I'm joking, that should be a not insignificant factor in your school choice.


+1, no joke

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BruceWayne
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:30 am

Helmholtz wrote:
wiseowl wrote:That being said, it shouldn't be graded, and while people think I'm joking, that should be a not insignificant factor in your school choice.


+1, no joke


To the max. People who haven't started law school yet really don't understand just how big of a deal it is not to be graded in this class (although I kind of intuitively realized it beforehand, it played a big role in my decision between 2 roughly equal schools). I simply cannot imagine having to deal with the reality that I'm being graded on a curve in LRW--that would be a nightmare. I'll say this, if you're deciding between MVBP and one of DCGN, assuming similiar financial aid packages, you really should consider going to MVBP because of the lack of graded LRW alone.

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beach_terror
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby beach_terror » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:00 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
wiseowl wrote:That being said, it shouldn't be graded, and while people think I'm joking, that should be a not insignificant factor in your school choice.


+1, no joke


To the max. People who haven't started law school yet really don't understand just how big of a deal it is not to be graded in this class (although I kind of intuitively realized it beforehand, it played a big role in my decision between 2 roughly equal schools). I simply cannot imagine having to deal with the reality that I'm being graded on a curve in LRW--that would be a nightmare. I'll say this, if you're deciding between MVBP and one of DCGN, assuming similiar financial aid packages, you really should consider going to MVBP because of the lack of graded LRW alone.


My LRW is graded, but it's not on a curve. A curve in a class of 22 would suck.

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straxen
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby straxen » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:07 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
wiseowl wrote:That being said, it shouldn't be graded, and while people think I'm joking, that should be a not insignificant factor in your school choice.


+1, no joke


To the max. People who haven't started law school yet really don't understand just how big of a deal it is not to be graded in this class (although I kind of intuitively realized it beforehand, it played a big role in my decision between 2 roughly equal schools). I simply cannot imagine having to deal with the reality that I'm being graded on a curve in LRW--that would be a nightmare. I'll say this, if you're deciding between MVBP and one of DCGN, assuming similiar financial aid packages, you really should consider going to MVBP because of the lack of graded LRW alone.


+3, In retrospect I would not have gone to a school with graded LRW if choosing between two schools where the call otherwise was even remotely close.

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traehekat
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby traehekat » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:10 pm

beach_terror wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
wiseowl wrote:That being said, it shouldn't be graded, and while people think I'm joking, that should be a not insignificant factor in your school choice.


+1, no joke


To the max. People who haven't started law school yet really don't understand just how big of a deal it is not to be graded in this class (although I kind of intuitively realized it beforehand, it played a big role in my decision between 2 roughly equal schools). I simply cannot imagine having to deal with the reality that I'm being graded on a curve in LRW--that would be a nightmare. I'll say this, if you're deciding between MVBP and one of DCGN, assuming similiar financial aid packages, you really should consider going to MVBP because of the lack of graded LRW alone.


My LRW is graded, but it's not on a curve. A curve in a class of 22 would suck.


ugh ours is graded on a curve in a class of 20 students. it's horrible.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:57 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
clintonius wrote:Man, that's fucking brutal. Is that your lawyering class or the entire section? And, how could it have been THAT bad?

Our Lawyering class. Our prof said in the e-mail, "the memos weren't that bad, many of you simply failed to find the seminal case in this issue." But when we were in our prof's office discussing a completely different topic, it was said "the class's interview skills are definitely great, I don't know if I can say the same about the legal writing abilities."

Essentially we're full of fail.

:shock: Dude. But I agree, you're full of priorities. The Title VII thing?

savagecheater
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby savagecheater » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:11 pm

So, I received a LW assignment back -

With exception of "Thesis statement is very strong, it'd be perfect with a cite right after.", I received no remotely critical remarks on the assignment. None. All the rest were quite positive.

Scroll down to the grade.

B

I mean, really? If you're going to effectively say that I did 'middling' work, show me where it is. Out of 19 different comments, one was 'negative'.

My LW professor is very approachable though, so I'm going in to talk to them about this. This just seems absurd.

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wiseowl
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Re: In which we complain about HelLRW

Postby wiseowl » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:15 pm

savagecheater wrote:So, I received a LW assignment back -

With exception of "Thesis statement is very strong, it'd be perfect with a cite right after.", I received no remotely critical remarks on the assignment. None. All the rest were quite positive.

Scroll down to the grade.

B

I mean, really? If you're going to effectively say that I did 'middling' work, show me where it is. Out of 19 different comments, one was 'negative'.

My LW professor is very approachable though, so I'm going in to talk to them about this. This just seems absurd.


LOL yep, welcome to the party. Get used to it! I wrote memos that federal judges later told me were among the best they read that year and it was...median or worse.

When you teach everyone how to write exactly the same way, force Bluebook down their throats, and even tell them which authority to use, how do you then put the 25 or 30 of them on a curve? It's lunacy.




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