CivPro -- Domicile

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Doritos
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CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Doritos » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:59 am

So, the Glannon E&E appears @ odds with something my professor said. I won't see him til next week so I turn to the internet. Question 8(c) on p. 95 of the E&E gives a hypo that turns on the domicile of this guy. He is born and raised in New York and now intends to move to arizona for a new job but on his drive there he gets in a car accident in oklahoma and is hospitalized. After six months he is released from the hospital and the company who offered him the arizona job rescinds it. This guy still has six months of rehabilitation ahead of him which he will stay in oklahoma for and after that he is going to look for a job somewhere, anywhere, in the oil industry. Question: Which state is he a citizen of?

Glannon: He says Oklahoma because his plans are indefinite with respect to leaving. He is going to be OK for at least 6 months but could be there forever for all he knows

My prof: says that us out of staters for law school are not residents of VA because we are just coming here for school. This seems like identical to the situation above (im going to be here for at least 3 years but am open to finding a job somewhere, anywhere, in the legal industry)

wtf?

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ChattTNdt
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby ChattTNdt » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:26 pm

My professor distinguished between citizenship for tuition purposes and citizenship for diversity jurisdiction purposes. States can make whatever rules they want for citizenship purposes, but in determining diversity jurisdiction the domicile standard (no immediate plans to leave state) applies.

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Doritos
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Doritos » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:40 pm

Perhaps he meant that but he was speaking of domicile. He said the out of staters are still citizens of our home states. I am thinking perhaps he misspoke (or I just misunderstood him). But the general consensus is the Glannon is correct here? He says in the explanation that it is a difficult case and he has had generations of students disagree and contest it. Is this the sort of thing that is going to depend on the D ct. judge or is it well settled this guy is a citizen of OK?

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ChattTNdt
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby ChattTNdt » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:49 pm

-
Last edited by ChattTNdt on Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doritos
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Doritos » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:03 pm

Thanks, I will ask for clarification in office hours

keg411
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby keg411 » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:09 pm

Doritos, if you're curious, I got what you go out of my own CivPro class discussion on domicile. I think it depends what cases you read in class. We also talked about students not being domiciled where they go to school, and if someone was a Jack Kerouac type and was always on the road, their domicile would be the last place where they were domiciled and not "nowhere" or "wherever they are currently".

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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Renzo » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:14 pm

He intends to stay in OK indefinitely, so he is (domiciled and) a citizen there. Indefinitely doesn't mean permanently, it just means he hasn't defined when he will leave. You are not a citizen of the state where you attend law school, because you are there for a finite, defined period of time (ending when you graduate).

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Doritos
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Doritos » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:28 pm

Renzo wrote:He intends to stay in OK indefinitely, so he is (domiciled and) a citizen there. Indefinitely doesn't mean permanently, it just means he hasn't defined when he will leave. You are not a citizen of the state where you attend law school, because you are there for a finite, defined period of time (ending when you graduate).


This is assuming that I plan on leaving the state. I plan on going wherever I get a job and that could be in state. So I will be in this state for 3 years AT LEAST and perhaps 100 for all I know. Therein lies the rub.

keg, that makes sense to me but it kind of runs contrary to mr. glannon. He says (along w/ renzo) that as long as you are there indefinitely (aka you have no plans to leave) then you are a citizen. If this kerouac-like character is on the road a lot and does not necessarily have a gameplan (e.g. I will leave this state in 2 weeks) but is just kind of going wherever the wind blows that seems to satisfy glannon's conception of domicile.

keg411
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby keg411 » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:04 pm

I think I get what the E&E is saying now. That just wasn't relevant to the case we looked at or the way we discussed it.

Renzo
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Renzo » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Doritos wrote:
Renzo wrote:He intends to stay in OK indefinitely, so he is (domiciled and) a citizen there. Indefinitely doesn't mean permanently, it just means he hasn't defined when he will leave. You are not a citizen of the state where you attend law school, because you are there for a finite, defined period of time (ending when you graduate).


This is assuming that I plan on leaving the state. I plan on going wherever I get a job and that could be in state. So I will be in this state for 3 years AT LEAST and perhaps 100 for all I know. Therein lies the rub.

Understood, but all you are then saying is that you are currently in Va for the fixed, finite term of law school, but if you got a job after that fixed, finite term you would then plan on staying indefinitely and you would become a citizen. You plan on leaving, unless a job compels you to stay; Mr. Hypo plans on staying, unless a job compels him to leave. As a third example, I am in NYC for school, but I plan to stay indefinitely: I have only applied to jobs in NY, I have surrendered my home-state driver's license and obtained an NY license, I registered to vote as an NY citizen, filed NY taxes, etc. If I don't get a job here, I might leave too, but my plan is to remain indefinitely.

All that said, the above poster is correct in that some states have very specific statutes about "citizenship" for university tuition purposes that are very different, and not to be confused with common law citizenship.

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vamedic03
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:31 am

Doritos wrote:So, the Glannon E&E appears @ odds with something my professor said. I won't see him til next week so I turn to the internet. Question 8(c) on p. 95 of the E&E gives a hypo that turns on the domicile of this guy. He is born and raised in New York and now intends to move to arizona for a new job but on his drive there he gets in a car accident in oklahoma and is hospitalized. After six months he is released from the hospital and the company who offered him the arizona job rescinds it. This guy still has six months of rehabilitation ahead of him which he will stay in oklahoma for and after that he is going to look for a job somewhere, anywhere, in the oil industry. Question: Which state is he a citizen of?

Glannon: He says Oklahoma because his plans are indefinite with respect to leaving. He is going to be OK for at least 6 months but could be there forever for all he knows

My prof: says that us out of staters for law school are not residents of VA because we are just coming here for school. This seems like identical to the situation above (im going to be here for at least 3 years but am open to finding a job somewhere, anywhere, in the legal industry)

wtf?


There's a strong argument that the guy is a citizen of New York - as it was the last place where he was a citizen. Its not clear that he has formed an intent to stay in OK indefinitely, as he plans on moving once a 6 month period is over.

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moandersen
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby moandersen » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:21 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Doritos wrote:So, the Glannon E&E appears @ odds with something my professor said. I won't see him til next week so I turn to the internet. Question 8(c) on p. 95 of the E&E gives a hypo that turns on the domicile of this guy. He is born and raised in New York and now intends to move to arizona for a new job but on his drive there he gets in a car accident in oklahoma and is hospitalized. After six months he is released from the hospital and the company who offered him the arizona job rescinds it. This guy still has six months of rehabilitation ahead of him which he will stay in oklahoma for and after that he is going to look for a job somewhere, anywhere, in the oil industry. Question: Which state is he a citizen of?

Glannon: He says Oklahoma because his plans are indefinite with respect to leaving. He is going to be OK for at least 6 months but could be there forever for all he knows

My prof: says that us out of staters for law school are not residents of VA because we are just coming here for school. This seems like identical to the situation above (im going to be here for at least 3 years but am open to finding a job somewhere, anywhere, in the legal industry)

wtf?


There's a strong argument that the guy is a citizen of New York - as it was the last place where he was a citizen. Its not clear that he has formed an intent to stay in OK indefinitely, as he plans on moving once a 6 month period is over.


this is what I believe as well.

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Doritos
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Doritos » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:45 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Doritos wrote:So, the Glannon E&E appears @ odds with something my professor said. I won't see him til next week so I turn to the internet. Question 8(c) on p. 95 of the E&E gives a hypo that turns on the domicile of this guy. He is born and raised in New York and now intends to move to arizona for a new job but on his drive there he gets in a car accident in oklahoma and is hospitalized. After six months he is released from the hospital and the company who offered him the arizona job rescinds it. This guy still has six months of rehabilitation ahead of him which he will stay in oklahoma for and after that he is going to look for a job somewhere, anywhere, in the oil industry. Question: Which state is he a citizen of?

Glannon: He says Oklahoma because his plans are indefinite with respect to leaving. He is going to be OK for at least 6 months but could be there forever for all he knows

My prof: says that us out of staters for law school are not residents of VA because we are just coming here for school. This seems like identical to the situation above (im going to be here for at least 3 years but am open to finding a job somewhere, anywhere, in the legal industry)

wtf?


There's a strong argument that the guy is a citizen of New York - as it was the last place where he was a citizen. Its not clear that he has formed an intent to stay in OK indefinitely, as he plans on moving once a 6 month period is over.


well he does not plan on moving he plans on looking for a job. that job could be in oklahoma. the only thing he's certain of is that he will be in OK for 6 months. I feel like more info is needed, what are his kids doing? his wife? did he sign a lease?

Renzo
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Renzo » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:46 pm

vamedic03 wrote:There's a strong argument that the guy is a citizen of New York - as it was the last place where he was a citizen. Its not clear that he has formed an intent to stay in OK indefinitely, as he plans on moving once a 6 month period is over.
There's an argument, but I wouldn't say it's strong.
The hypo doesn't say he's going to leave OK in 6 months. It says he will be in OK for at least six months, and then until he finds a job, wherever that job is. Staying unless and until some as-yet undefined job might (or might not) possibly cause him to leave is intent to remain indefinitely.

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soaponarope
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby soaponarope » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:37 pm

Doritos wrote:So, the Glannon E&E appears @ odds with something my professor said. I won't see him til next week so I turn to the internet. Question 8(c) on p. 95 of the E&E gives a hypo that turns on the domicile of this guy. He is born and raised in New York and now intends to move to arizona for a new job but on his drive there he gets in a car accident in oklahoma and is hospitalized. After six months he is released from the hospital and the company who offered him the arizona job rescinds it. This guy still has six months of rehabilitation ahead of him which he will stay in oklahoma for and after that he is going to look for a job somewhere, anywhere, in the oil industry. Question: Which state is he a citizen of?

Glannon: He says Oklahoma because his plans are indefinite with respect to leaving. He is going to be OK for at least 6 months but could be there forever for all he knows

My prof: says that us out of staters for law school are not residents of VA because we are just coming here for school. This seems like identical to the situation above (im going to be here for at least 3 years but am open to finding a job somewhere, anywhere, in the legal industry)

wtf?


There must be something missing from the original fact pattern.

Definition of domicile: The place in which you intend to return (not verbatim, but that is the definition).

In order to obtain domicile of any State you need to first sign a declaration of domicile. For example, i just moved from FL, to NY. My domicile is registered in FL, under the Leon County Court. Until I sign a declaration of Domicile in NY, I am (in the eyes of the law) a domiciled citizen in the State of Fl, and only a temporary resident in NY. Now, perhaps there is an exception. You could argue that I am domiciled in NY (regardless if I signed the declaration of domicile) if I sold all of my FL property, and purchased a house in NY, and had several substantial contacts in NY (and it appeared that I intended to remain in NY).

In your scenario, there aren't enough facts to clearly determine his domicile. Did he have any property in OU, or contacts? Surely, he doesn't intend to say there, or remain there. That said, he certainly could still be brought to suit in OU. When you use State highways you ought to reasonably anticipate being brought to suit there if you commit a negligent act. Moreover, you purposely avail yourself to the State of OU and receive the benefits of their highways, ambulance (if you so need one), and protection provided by OU police. Additionally, you may be brought to suit in NY as well... depending on if you still held at least minimum contacts. That said, there still isn't enough info in the hypo to determine 100% which State ("guy") is domiciled.

jmo.

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MrKappus
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby MrKappus » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:00 am

^ So...much...fail.

Domicile = (1) Residence + (2) Intent to Remain Indefinitely. Intent to remain indefinitely is not just a lack of a concrete plan to move, but a true intention to remain in that state. For that reason, alien law students are not residents, b/c their residence in the state is tied to their status as students and they have no basis upon which to prove by a preponderance that they intend to remain there after they graduate.

That's all it really is...try not to over-think things. Especially when it comes to PJ.

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soaponarope
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby soaponarope » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:30 am

MrKappus wrote:^ So...much...fail.

Domicile = (1) Residence + (2) Intent to Remain Indefinitely. Intent to remain indefinitely is not just a lack of a concrete plan to move, but a true intention to remain in that state. For that reason, alien law students are not residents, b/c their residence in the state is tied to their status as students and they have no basis upon which to prove by a preponderance that they intend to remain there after they graduate.



That's all it really is...try not to over-think things. Especially when it comes to PJ.



Uh... you just wrote what I wrote in different words. I said the definition of domicile is where you intend to return, i.e. the place in which you intend to remain indefinitely. I'm domiciled in FL, however, I"m attending law school in NY... I intend to return to Fl, however, I am temporary resident of NY. Hence why I said, domicile= place where you intend to return. You can be a resident of another state, and domiciled in a different State. As for signing a declaration of domicile (as tangible evidence of your intent), is 100% fact. I've had to do it myself...

And PJ is much more hazy/ fact dependent than you think...

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MrKappus
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby MrKappus » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:49 am

soaponarope wrote:
MrKappus wrote:^ So...much...fail.

Domicile = (1) Residence + (2) Intent to Remain Indefinitely. Intent to remain indefinitely is not just a lack of a concrete plan to move, but a true intention to remain in that state. For that reason, alien law students are not residents, b/c their residence in the state is tied to their status as students and they have no basis upon which to prove by a preponderance that they intend to remain there after they graduate.



That's all it really is...try not to over-think things. Especially when it comes to PJ.



Uh... you just wrote what I wrote in different words. I said the definition of domicile is where you intend to return, i.e. the place in which you intend to remain indefinitely. I'm domiciled in FL, however, I"m attending law school in NY... I intend to return to Fl, however, I am temporary resident of NY. Hence why I said, domicile= place where you intend to return. You can be a resident of another state, and domiciled in a different State. As for signing a declaration of domicile (as tangible evidence of your intent), is 100% fact. I've had to do it myself...

And PJ is much more hazy/ fact dependent than you think...


We'll go bold by bold...

No.
Nope again.
No shit. See my two-part definition, supra.
Cool story, brah. It's still not necessary for a court to establish PJ over you.

I took Civ Pro and didn't find it that "hazy," sorry.

EDIT: SMJ. Diversity. Not PJ. Jesus.

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soaponarope
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby soaponarope » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:56 am

MrKappus wrote:
soaponarope wrote:
MrKappus wrote:^ So...much...fail.

Domicile = (1) Residence + (2) Intent to Remain Indefinitely. Intent to remain indefinitely is not just a lack of a concrete plan to move, but a true intention to remain in that state. For that reason, alien law students are not residents, b/c their residence in the state is tied to their status as students and they have no basis upon which to prove by a preponderance that they intend to remain there after they graduate.



That's all it really is...try not to over-think things. Especially when it comes to PJ.



Uh... you just wrote what I wrote in different words. I said the definition of domicile is where you intend to return, i.e. the place in which you intend to remain indefinitely. I'm domiciled in FL, however, I"m attending law school in NY... I intend to return to Fl, however, I am temporary resident of NY. Hence why I said, domicile= place where you intend to return. You can be a resident of another state, and domiciled in a different State. As for signing a declaration of domicile (as tangible evidence of your intent), is 100% fact. I've had to do it myself...

And PJ is much more hazy/ fact dependent than you think...


We'll go bold by bold...

No.
Nope again.
No shit. See my two-part definition, supra.
Cool story, brah. It's still not necessary for a court to establish PJ over you.

I took Civ Pro and didn't find it that "hazy," sorry.



Yes.
Yes again.
Your definition is the same as mine (i.e. the place you intend to return=the place you intend to remain indefinitely)
It is a cool story.

I doubt you received above a C in Civ Pro.

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joeshmo39
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby joeshmo39 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:06 am

Dear Mr. Dorito,

So there are 3 states at play here: AZ, NY, and OK. It is clear he is not domiciled in AZ. Now you said he has rehab for some months but after that plans to move somewhere, anywhere, for a job. My impression is that he is then not manifesting an intention to remain in OK permanently. Also, given the sudden circumstances that brought him to OK, I think he did not establish domicile there. This means he is still a citizen of the last state he was domiciled in, NY. That is my read and similar to what my professor said. Maybe we'll discuss this the next time I run into you.

Renzo
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Re: CivPro -- Domicile

Postby Renzo » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:19 am

joeshmo39 wrote:Dear Mr. Dorito,

So there are 3 states at play here: AZ, NY, and OK. It is clear he is not domiciled in AZ. Now you said he has rehab for some months but after that plans to move somewhere, anywhere, for a job. My impression is that he is then not manifesting an intention to remain in OK permanently. Also, given the sudden circumstances that brought him to OK, I think he did not establish domicile there. This means he is still a citizen of the last state he was domiciled in, NY. That is my read and similar to what my professor said. Maybe we'll discuss this the next time I run into you.


You are saying that permanent and indefinite mean the same thing. He doesn't need to plan on staying permanently, he need only have no definite plans to leave (in-definite plans, if you will).




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