No Laptops in Class!

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judgeholden
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby judgeholden » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:36 am

romothesavior wrote:While I am pretty sympathetic to the "It's our legal eduction, we should allowed to zone out if we want to" argument, I am starting to see the prof argument from a different angle. Even if a student uses a laptop exclusively for note-taking, it distracts from their ability to learn because a lot of students turn into little typing zombies... they are more like court reporters than engaged law students.

I've only had one day of classes, and we had students typing almost every word that came out of the prof's mouth. They made zero attempt to discriminate between what was important and what was not. I wanted to lean over and be like, "You do realize that very little of this will actually help you in your notes... you should try to pay attention" but hey, if they want to zone out and transcribe every word, go for it.


Oo, hey, I forgot that point - with laptops everyone takes notes without digesting. You can type faster than the professor can speak so you're taking it all down. Handwritten you can't keep up so you don't try. Instead people tend to listen and write down a few key points. Rather than information going straight from the ears to the fingers it stops at the brain, pokes around a bit, and likely settles there.

Laptop users - admit it: there have been times you've realized that for the past X minutes you've kept complete notes yet had no clue what you'd written. You look up and are surprised to see something in your notes.



Lastly, to the "it's my money and I can learn how I want" point: well, not really. The classroom operates as the professor dictates. You're not paying to learn, you're paying for the privilege to learn. Many educators, and people in general, feel that laptops weaken the learning for everyone. Classes without them seem more dynamic. Sure, you feel you should be able to choose to learn with them and you're harming no one, but you're actually harming the experience for everyone in the room.
Those of you that have taken classes with or without and can subjectively think about whether it made a difference, not in how you enjoyed the class but how much you learned.

I agree that any school not letting you use SecurExam on finals is barbaric, but do any exist? Might be worth handwriting one or two, though, in certain jurisdictions. One of my bar exams didn't let us use laptops, and holy shit, after two previous days of exams spending one handwriting was far more painful than expected. The other state let us use laptops, but a few kids had their essays eaten. Sure, they were eventually recovered, but to flip back two essays to review what you wrote only to find a blank page? That'll ruin your mindset for the rest of the exams.

09042014
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:43 am

I don't think its fair, or responsible to ban laptops because some idiots just transcribe class. I can organize my notes much better in one note, I can edit them later, and it is supremely more legible than my handwriting. Punishing me because Sally Secretary can't take notes is BS.

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kalvano
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby kalvano » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:06 pm

romothesavior wrote:I've only had one day of classes, and we had students typing almost every word that came out of the prof's mouth.


This really amuses me.

keg411
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby keg411 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I don't think its fair, or responsible to ban laptops because some idiots just transcribe class. I can organize my notes much better in one note, I can edit them later, and it is supremely more legible than my handwriting. Punishing me because Sally Secretary can't take notes is BS.


+1

judgeholden
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby judgeholden » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:40 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I don't think its fair, or responsible to ban laptops because some idiots just transcribe class. I can organize my notes much better in one note, I can edit them later, and it is supremely more legible than my handwriting. Punishing me because Sally Secretary can't take notes is BS.


You're punished either way.
Would you rather be with a laptop in a class where the participants are only 30% engaged or without a laptop where the participants are closer to 80% engaged?

Numbers pulled from my ass, obviously, but probably not bad estimates. If you have laptops in the class and most of your peers are hiding behind them and not paying attention then your learning experience will be neutered regardless.

The professors aren't fighting laptops because they're mean, or because they're afraid of technology, or whathaveyou. They do it because they've noticed a serious drop in the quality of class discussions with them versus without them.

09042014
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby 09042014 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:46 pm

judgeholden wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I don't think its fair, or responsible to ban laptops because some idiots just transcribe class. I can organize my notes much better in one note, I can edit them later, and it is supremely more legible than my handwriting. Punishing me because Sally Secretary can't take notes is BS.


You're punished either way.
Would you rather be with a laptop in a class where the participants are only 30% engaged or without a laptop where the participants are closer to 80% engaged?

Numbers pulled from my ass, obviously, but probably not bad estimates. If you have laptops in the class and most of your peers are hiding behind them and not paying attention then your learning experience will be neutered regardless.

The professors aren't fighting laptops because they're mean, or because they're afraid of technology, or whathaveyou. They do it because they've noticed a serious drop in the quality of class discussions with them versus without them.


30% any day of the week.

revolution724
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby revolution724 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:10 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
Sorry, I just woke up and came across as a bit harsh. *twitch*



Have some coffee, and I mean that in the most sincere sense. Half my point, anyway, is that people don't grow up when they're treated like babies.

Baylan
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Baylan » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:19 pm

As an update: I was the one with the prof banning laptops during class, closed book, handwritten final.

He stated today (our first day of torts) that the final will be primarily Multiple Choice, True False, and Short Answer, which makes the "handwritten" final aspect much much much more bearable. I dislike the idea less now. Plus he's an old white bearded man.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:38 pm

Baylan wrote:As an update: I was the one with the prof banning laptops during class, closed book, handwritten final.

He stated today (our first day of torts) that the final will be primarily Multiple Choice, True False, and Short Answer, which makes the "handwritten" final aspect much much much more bearable. I dislike the idea less now. Plus he's an old white bearded man.

Image
He teaches law at 6L level.
He once ratified an Amendment, by himself.
He is the chief, chief justice of the SCOTUS.

Ladies and Gentleman, He is the MOST INTERESTING LAW PROFESSOR IN THE WORLD.

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20160810
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby 20160810 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:02 pm

kalvano wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I've only had one day of classes, and we had students typing almost every word that came out of the prof's mouth.


This really amuses me.

+1. I generally took about 1/2 page of notes per hour. Less for more windy philosophical classes like conlaw, more for more nuts-and-bolts classes like Ks.

The golden rule of note-taking is, has always been, and should ever remain as follows: If you're never going to re-read it, don't write it down.

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Matthies
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Matthies » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:09 pm

judgeholden wrote:Laptop users - admit it: there have been times you've realized that for the past X minutes you've kept complete notes yet had no clue what you'd written. You look up and are surprised to see something in your notes.


This would have required me actually taking notes in law school. They tried that shit in barbri, cut off the internet, thank god for tethering. Sorry i just never got much from class, seeing my freinds and cathcing up on the days internet was why i went.

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Entchen
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Entchen » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:20 pm

So, what do I know, I'm just a lowly 0L, but when I start law school, I was planning on hand-writing my notes and then...not typing them after class either.

Worked for me all through undergrad.

Baylan
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Baylan » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:09 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
Baylan wrote:As an update: I was the one with the prof banning laptops during class, closed book, handwritten final.

He stated today (our first day of torts) that the final will be primarily Multiple Choice, True False, and Short Answer, which makes the "handwritten" final aspect much much much more bearable. I dislike the idea less now. Plus he's an old white bearded man.

Image
He teaches law at 6L level.
He once ratified an Amendment, by himself.
He is the chief, chief justice of the SCOTUS.

Ladies and Gentleman, He is the MOST INTERESTING LAW PROFESSOR IN THE WORLD.


My prof has more white hair.



And while not a 6L prof, amendment ratifier, or the chief, chief justice of the SCOTUS, I did enjoy my first day of Torts with him.

edit: I fail at image linking.

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GeePee
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby GeePee » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:25 pm

I can sympathize with people who can't read their own handwriting, but penmanship is still a fairly valuable skill. What happens when you're in court and need to take notes, are you going to bring your laptop? That's probably not happening anytime soon.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:33 pm

Baylan wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Baylan wrote:As an update: I was the one with the prof banning laptops during class, closed book, handwritten final.

He stated today (our first day of torts) that the final will be primarily Multiple Choice, True False, and Short Answer, which makes the "handwritten" final aspect much much much more bearable. I dislike the idea less now. Plus he's an old white bearded man.

[/img]
He teaches law at 6L level.
He once ratified an Amendment, by himself.
He is the chief, chief justice of the SCOTUS.

Ladies and Gentleman, He is the MOST INTERESTING LAW PROFESSOR IN THE WORLD.


My prof has more white hair.

And while not a 6L prof, amendment ratifier, or the chief, chief justice of the SCOTUS, I did enjoy my first day of Torts with him.

edit: I fail at image linking.


You wish he was though.

All of his students go on to be SCOTUS Justices. They just fight over who'll be the chief.

I should make a comic about this.

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summerstar
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby summerstar » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:29 am

...Some of my Profs split the class up and put laptop users on the other side of the room...it has an interesting psychological effect. She's not saying "no laptops", but she makes you feel segregated if you do use one. Personally, I can't stand the sound of all the acrylic nails chattering away on the keyboards like angry little secretaries. The equivalent of nails on a chalk board while I'm trying to concentrate.

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Duralex
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Duralex » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:07 am

GeePee wrote:I can sympathize with people who can't read their own handwriting, but penmanship is still a fairly valuable skill. What happens when you're in court and need to take notes, are you going to bring your laptop? That's probably not happening anytime soon.


Haven't been to court lately, have you?

U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
Electronic Devices Policy

This policy pertains to the use of electronic devices by the bar, media and the public in the courthouses and other
dedicated spaces housing the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit....The policy also applies to other places in which the court holds session for special sittings...

Visitors to any of the Ninth Circuit courthouses and dedicated spaces are allowed to carry and make use of various
electronic devices as set out by this policy. Different rules may apply when the court meets in another venue,
such as a district courthouse. Where conflicts between this policy and that of a district court become known, the
chief circuit judge and chief district judge, or their designees, will confer to resolve such conflicts.
General Rules:

1. Anyone may bring electronic devices, such as a Blackberry, smart phone, laptop computer or a similar
functioning device having wireless communications capability into the courthouse.

2. Except for courtrooms, persons may use such devices in public areas of the courthouse to make telephone
calls and to transmit and receive data communications, such as email or text messages, or to access the
Internet. For reasons of privacy, safety, and security, use of these devices to take photographs or for audio
or video recording or transmission is prohibited in the courthouse (exceptions for court staff, authorized
vendors or for educational or ceremonial events).

3. In courtrooms, persons may use such devices to take notes, transmit and receive data communications, and
access the Internet
. This includes media members who are transmitting written accounts of the proceeding
to a wider audience using various means. Persons may not use these devices for telephone calls,
photographs or audio or video recording or transmission. Telephone ring tones and other functional sounds
produced by devices must be disabled while in the courtroom. Only quiet keyboards may be used in
the courtrooms.


4. The presiding judge of a judicial panel may prohibit or further restrict use of such devices by all persons
prior to or during a proceeding when necessary to protect the rights of the parties or to assure the orderly
conduct of the proceedings.


5. This policy will be prominently displayed wherever the court holds session and posted on the court’s
website. Failure to adhere to the policy may result in removal from the courtroom or other sanction.
Adopted June 23, 2010

(emphasis added.)

Profs who care about this thing should just walk around the lecture hall while Socratizing people and watch for frantic ALT+TAB action (although very vertical auditorium style rooms or wired/anchored mics make this less practicable.)

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GeePee
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby GeePee » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:22 am

Duralex wrote:
GeePee wrote:I can sympathize with people who can't read their own handwriting, but penmanship is still a fairly valuable skill. What happens when you're in court and need to take notes, are you going to bring your laptop? That's probably not happening anytime soon.


Haven't been to court lately, have you?

U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
Electronic Devices Policy

This policy pertains to the use of electronic devices by the bar, media and the public in the courthouses and other
dedicated spaces housing the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit....The policy also applies to other places in which the court holds session for special sittings...

Visitors to any of the Ninth Circuit courthouses and dedicated spaces are allowed to carry and make use of various
electronic devices as set out by this policy. Different rules may apply when the court meets in another venue,
such as a district courthouse. Where conflicts between this policy and that of a district court become known, the
chief circuit judge and chief district judge, or their designees, will confer to resolve such conflicts.
General Rules:

1. Anyone may bring electronic devices, such as a Blackberry, smart phone, laptop computer or a similar
functioning device having wireless communications capability into the courthouse.

2. Except for courtrooms, persons may use such devices in public areas of the courthouse to make telephone
calls and to transmit and receive data communications, such as email or text messages, or to access the
Internet. For reasons of privacy, safety, and security, use of these devices to take photographs or for audio
or video recording or transmission is prohibited in the courthouse (exceptions for court staff, authorized
vendors or for educational or ceremonial events).

3. In courtrooms, persons may use such devices to take notes, transmit and receive data communications, and
access the Internet
. This includes media members who are transmitting written accounts of the proceeding
to a wider audience using various means. Persons may not use these devices for telephone calls,
photographs or audio or video recording or transmission. Telephone ring tones and other functional sounds
produced by devices must be disabled while in the courtroom. Only quiet keyboards may be used in
the courtrooms.


4. The presiding judge of a judicial panel may prohibit or further restrict use of such devices by all persons
prior to or during a proceeding when necessary to protect the rights of the parties or to assure the orderly
conduct of the proceedings.


5. This policy will be prominently displayed wherever the court holds session and posted on the court’s
website. Failure to adhere to the policy may result in removal from the courtroom or other sanction.
Adopted June 23, 2010

(emphasis added.)

Profs who care about this thing should just walk around the lecture hall while Socratizing people and watch for frantic ALT+TAB action (although very vertical auditorium style rooms or wired/anchored mics make this less practicable.)


That's interesting. I actually was in court quite a bit this summer and last and, in the jurisdiction, there were no laptops or electronic devices allowed. Apparently the 9th circuit is beginning to feel a bit differently.

Most policy seems to be directed toward jurors and media, though, so I think it will be interesting to see whether laptops for attorneys become the norm. I guess we shouldn't rule it out.

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Duralex
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Duralex » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:46 am

That's interesting. I actually was in court quite a bit this summer and last and, in the jurisdiction, there were no laptops or electronic devices allowed. Apparently the 9th circuit is beginning to feel a bit differently.

Most policy seems to be directed toward jurors and media, though, so I think it will be interesting to see whether laptops for attorneys become the norm. I guess we shouldn't rule it out.


I'm pretty sure that every time I've checked court rules out here in CA they've been allowed for attorneys, but not always for the public. Also when watching televised or recorded proceedings they seem to have become the norm in at least most major states/large cities (although that is of course just my impression.)

I think it nearly inevitable that they will be commonplace in courtrooms everywhere sooner than later. From what I've seen in SoCal, even the older technophobes are starting to use notebooks at depos and trial (but not so much for hearings on motions etc.) And assuming that attorneys are more responsible and attentive than law students (questionable, I know, especially in depos--but depos can be mind-numbingly boring) it's probably to everyone's benefit. Certainly less wasteful and more agile than the whole shuffling through piles of trial binders routine.

Amusingly, this month's Judge's Journal is all about the use of technology in court.




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