No Laptops in Class!

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:35 pm

MrKappus wrote:@B-Roman: Law students will, when they become lawyers, lack proficiency with technology b/c one of their profs banned laptops? If that were true, I wish your prof would ban laptops. It'd keep you from posting ITT.


Our generation(s) are gifted by being born "into" technology. There are people in their late 30's and 40's who did not have much experience with computers and are still technically challenged.

Although, on the other side of things: Taking an "Intro to Microcomputers" course will familiarize yourself with MS Office, the Internet, and so on. Pretty handy course when I was doing classes on it; not at the college, think of it as group tutoring with a workable class.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:38 pm

JazzOne wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Sorry, I wasn't aware that law professors at your school had mirrors positioned at the back of your class.

I submit.

The exam software does not permit you to access anything on your computer except the exam. Happy now? Freakin' smart ass 0Ls.


For a LS, you're horrible at deciphering the details sir.

I'll reiterate, with emphasis to help you out, smart ass:

Although I'm not in LS, I have profs who do law school classes and they do not allow any material that is not in the syllabus in the classroom or any part of the class. You can easily disguise where you get your information on with a laptop vs. actually having a book in front of the prof.

Ah, I thought we were talking about exams. You are correct. Carry on.



Thank you.

You know it does bring a thought: Can't believe an enterprising CS student hasn't worked a spellchecker and a bunch of goodies into the program; obviously it'd get people kicked out for trying to use it if caught.. but that's nothing on the author since the court is going all liberal and junk ruling that patching software which isn't yours is totally legal now. Gotta love precedent!

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JazzOne
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby JazzOne » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:48 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Thank you.

You know it does bring a thought: Can't believe an enterprising CS student hasn't worked a spellchecker and a bunch of goodies into the program; obviously it'd get people kicked out for trying to use it if caught.. but that's nothing on the author since the court is going all liberal and junk ruling that patching software which isn't yours is totally legal now. Gotta love precedent!

The exam software already has spell checker. The software is decent actually.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:56 pm

JazzOne wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Thank you.

You know it does bring a thought: Can't believe an enterprising CS student hasn't worked a spellchecker and a bunch of goodies into the program; obviously it'd get people kicked out for trying to use it if caught.. but that's nothing on the author since the court is going all liberal and junk ruling that patching software which isn't yours is totally legal now. Gotta love precedent!

The exam software already has spell checker. The software is decent actually.


That's actually very nice of them. I did some research, came up with some pretty interesting stuff.. but for obvious reasons I won't post it here. Instead, I'll post an exploit which no longer works. NO WONDER YOU GUYS LIKE MACS SO MUCH! I jest, but here's the article:
http://lawfranklin.com/2008/05/how-to-c ... msoft.html

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wiseowl
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby wiseowl » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:21 am

prezidentv8 wrote:My two worst grades = two classes where I could not use my laptop. Slow and crappy handwriting and ADD and narcoleptic tendencies for the loss.


Same here. I didn't have enough time in 1L to go to the bathroom, let alone retype all of my indecipherable notes each day in 3 classes. The fact that it's now happening again in upper level classes is somewhere between hilarious and infuriating.

Here's a hint profs: be interesting and you won't have websurfing. When you read off the same materials you've been teaching for decades, send slides/notes out after class, and record audio of the class - what exactly is my incentive to sit pen in hand waiting for your every word? There's a Coase theorem hypo for you.

Lady Finch
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Lady Finch » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:22 am

ResolutePear wrote:
legalease9 wrote:My LS forbids laptop bans, which is pretty cool!


Brings up a good criteria when choosing a law school, although it doesn't help the OP any.. :/

Also, with a laptop ban, would they expect you to handwrite your final? How archaic.


In one of my classes we are allowed a laptop for notes, but the final must be handwritten.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:54 am

Lady Finch wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
legalease9 wrote:My LS forbids laptop bans, which is pretty cool!


Brings up a good criteria when choosing a law school, although it doesn't help the OP any.. :/

Also, with a laptop ban, would they expect you to handwrite your final? How archaic.


In one of my classes we are allowed a laptop for notes, but the final must be handwritten.


You just gotta ask yourself.. as a professor, why in the hell would you want to deal with people's bad handwritting? Because he's into BDSM, obviously.

revolution724
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby revolution724 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:59 am

Gasp! I've seen this thread and felt sorry for you all because I had no professor lay down a no-laptops policy all throughout 1L.

Then I checked out the syllabus for my first 2L class, which is Family Law this afternoon. No laptops.

Nooooooo!

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:01 am

revolution724 wrote:Gasp! I've seen this thread and felt sorry for you all because I had no professor lay down a no-laptops policy all throughout 1L.

Then I checked out the syllabus for my first 2L class, which is Family Law this afternoon. No laptops.

Nooooooo!


Thinking back on it, I've seen professors who outline in their syllabus against laptop use... but people use them anyways. Did it affect their grade? Well, I sure wouldn't want to be in between an A and A- by a fraction of a point.

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romothesavior
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby romothesavior » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:15 am

Lady Finch wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
legalease9 wrote:My LS forbids laptop bans, which is pretty cool!


Brings up a good criteria when choosing a law school, although it doesn't help the OP any.. :/

Also, with a laptop ban, would they expect you to handwrite your final? How archaic.


In one of my classes we are allowed a laptop for notes, but the final must be handwritten.


That is just beyond absurd.

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kazu
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby kazu » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:16 am

ResolutePear wrote:You just gotta ask yourself.. as a professor, why in the hell would you want to deal with people's bad handwritting? Because he's into BDSM, obviously.


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: I love what comes out of the Pear's mouth sometimes.

Connelly
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Connelly » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:16 am

I'm fine with no laptop policies (for class - no laptops on the exam is just sadistic in nearly every case) as long as the professor takes pedagogical advantage of it. Law students made it through law school without laptops for generations. Surely we aren't so frail that we can't go without. Some of my favorite classes (and some of the ones where I did my best) were no-laptop classes. This was mainly from the professors being amazing. Also, if you're having to type/write down a lot during class, either you or the professor are doing it wrong. Class shouldn't be a time to dump a ton of material that needs to be memorized on students.

But just because we can go without doesn't mean we should. Ideally, a professor would leverage laptop use to involve his students more in class and help them get more out of it. Technology can actually aid classroom discussion and student involvement. As long as a professor is constantly asking at least themselves what they can do better, I'm fine with experimenting with no laptop policies, but restricting laptop use because you're too boring to hold students' attention is lame.

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Iconoclast
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby Iconoclast » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:52 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Just use your fountain pens on the mimeographed exams and write fast to save candlelight. This is simple stuff, people!

Seriously, though, a rule against laptops seems increasingly difficult to justify since the legal field, as every other field in the world it seems, is becoming increasingly digitized.


It's a stupid rule b/c it handicaps the pedagogical process, not b/c the field is "increasingly digitized." Surgery's "increasingly robotized," but med students still learn how to use a scalpel.


I am saying that there is no reasonable justification for restricting the use of laptops in class that can be based on the requirements of the profession after graduation. Actually, because lawyers are almost entirely dependent now on computers in their work (for research, for word processing, for organization, etc) removing this competency training from the classroom by banning these important tools of the trade actually works to the detriment of the law student. It not only handicaps the pedagogical process, it also holds students back from adapting their methods in class to the methods they will use in the profession. Do lawyers typically write up documents by hand, or do they type them? Do lawyers typically rely on notes taken by hand, or do they transcribe them with a computer? The fact that lawyers are increasingly reliant on computers means that the restriction on their use is not just hurting their ability to take notes, it's also hurting their ability to be lawyers. One major complaint I hear from law school graduates is that law school teaches the law, but it does a poor job of teaching a student how to be a lawyer. A laptop ban in class only contributes to that problem,

The reason your analogy is so stupid is that it compares apples and oranges. A surgeon learns to use a scalpel because they still need to use a scalpel frequently in their profession. Robotization of surgery is happening, but learning the core competency of scalpel work is still absolutely necessary to be a surgeon. A lawyer, however, does not need to learn how to take notes by hand beyond the basic competency that somebody already brings in that skill from their 12+ years of education up to that point. A lawyer is better served by being encouraged to use the technology that will define their career.


Faulty logic is faulty. In a classroom, the professor is presenting information and then discussing that information with students. It is a conversation. It is where you get the information that you later use to start that research which will then lead to your writing of that paper.

You say that lawyers don't need to take notes by hand or be able to "pedagogically" assimilate information without the aid of a computer.

Have you ever been interviewed by a lawyer? I have (on a couple occasions) and guess what? They didn't break out their laptops and start typing notes on what I said. They had a pen and paper and wrote down the important points.

Have you ever watched a real trial? I had a front row seat at a recent one and yes, the lawyers for both sides used computers. But NONE of the 4 lawyers involved took notes on their computers during open court. Every one of them used pens and paper to jot stuff down throughout the trial. (Noticing a theme here?)

You try to make a claim that by restricting laptop use in the classroom that professors are preventing you from "adapting their methods in class to the methods they will use in the profession" but in fact the exact opposite is true. You will NOT bust out a laptop to take notes while you are interviewing clients or having other discussions with other people involved in your work. You will either record the conversations or (more likely) you will take notes with a good ol' pen and paper.

After you have completed your interview with your client, you will start using the "important tools of the trade" to research, organize, and produce documents. Just like after class you will use those "important tools of the trade" to research, organize, study, and produce documents.

Don't get me wrong, I think banning laptops in class is a bad decision. But I certainly wouldn't try to use such a faulty line of reasoning to justify my position.

judgeholden
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby judgeholden » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:13 am

My law degree was with laptops in classes. People shopped for shoes during class. Some people played games. At least one kid watched movies. Plenty used AIM/gchat/facebook to communicate with others in the class, right down to passing answers when someone was called on. One kid liked to send unassumingly dirty links to people in the front rows, hoping they'd open it and embarrass themselves to all behind them. I used digital books and, when called on when unprepared (100% of the time I was called on), a quick ctrl-f would give me whatever answer I needed.

Plenty of people, perhaps the majority, perhaps just under, did not spend much time abusing the entertainment advantages of the laptops. But they'd still end up distracted by others whose monitors were in view (it's amazing how much time we spent IMing mocking what others were choosing to do over learn...), and they were still hiding behind the monitors. Regardless of anything, if you've got a 15.4" or greater monitor in front of you and you're sitting above the professor then your face is mostly hidden.

Professors hate this. And they hate knowing that a huge chunk of students are occupied with other things. That their lecture is being ignored. It affects how well they're giving the lecture. Constantly calling on those too busy on perez hilton to pay attention slows things down. Having half the class playing solitaire drastically reduces the quality of questions being posed.

My MBA had a very strict no-laptop policy. At first I thought it was barbaric. Beyond note-taking, I wanted Excel. It only seemed to make sense.
Turns out it was a fantastic decision. The students tended to be far more engaged and the classes far more dynamic. To an extent this is due to the nature of the program itself, but the lack of laptops does make a huge difference. Not having a huge rectangle separating everyone makes a huge difference. You simply learned better.
As for notes, well, notes aren't too important with MBA programs. You tend to have handouts for every class. The first half of the class is usually a discussion where note-taking isn't too needed, the second half would be a recap and a bit of a lecture, where you just take notes to supplement the handouts, generally writing on the handout itself.
Then again, I never used notes in law school, anyway. Sure, I kind of took some, sort of, maybe something, but in the end I always tracked down either the outline for the professor that's been passed from class to class for decades or a friend who took detailed notes and used his outline. I don't think I ever once referred back to my notes.

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kalvano
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby kalvano » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:46 pm

I use GChat a little bit with a couple people in class, but really, I'm paying a shit-ton of money to be able sit there and listen to these people.

I prefer to, you know, do so.

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20160810
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby 20160810 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:54 pm

Stop whining.

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evilxs
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby evilxs » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:55 am

I had a professor put this up on the overhead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCLpk0WR058&p=E746C0EF4B234F92&playnext=1&index=2

And then tell us that is why everyone is moving away from computers.

revolution724
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby revolution724 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:27 am

evilxs wrote:I had a professor put this up on the overhead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCLpk0WR058&p=E746C0EF4B234F92&playnext=1&index=2

And then tell us that is why everyone is moving away from computers.


Yeah, that's all kinds of infantilizing. You know what? Everyone in law school is an adult, with the remote possibility that there's some random solitary Doogie Howser exception out there. It's our money, our time, our career prospects, our interest in learning, and we are paying dearly for it. I can deal without a laptop in the class that bans them, fine; it's not a note-intensive class. That's not the point. I just don't entirely appreciate the parent/elementary school teacher-like attitude of a professor forbidding common and useful technology because of wanting to make sure that adult, college-educated law students behave themselves, pay attention in class, and don't write down too many things said. We can figure that out for ourselves, thanks, and if we don't, it'll no doubt reflect in our grades and the professor's willingness to give us references.

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romothesavior
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby romothesavior » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:05 am

While I am pretty sympathetic to the "It's our legal eduction, we should allowed to zone out if we want to" argument, I am starting to see the prof argument from a different angle. Even if a student uses a laptop exclusively for note-taking, it distracts from their ability to learn because a lot of students turn into little typing zombies... they are more like court reporters than engaged law students.

I've only had one day of classes, and we had students typing almost every word that came out of the prof's mouth. They made zero attempt to discriminate between what was important and what was not. I wanted to lean over and be like, "You do realize that very little of this will actually help you in your notes... you should try to pay attention" but hey, if they want to zone out and transcribe every word, go for it.

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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby romothesavior » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:08 am

ResolutePear wrote:Our generation(s) are gifted by being born "into" technology. There are people in their late 30's and 40's who did not have much experience with computers and are still technically challenged.


Eh... I dunno if that's all of it. I have three profs for my core classes, and one has banned them, one is not a fan but he allows them, and another is a really big fan of laptops and highly encouraged us to bring them. The guy who is a big fan is over 80 years old, while the other two are probably in their 30s-40s. I think there is just a recognition among profs that they aren't that helpful in the first place.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:08 am

revolution724 wrote:
evilxs wrote:I had a professor put this up on the overhead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCLpk0WR058&p=E746C0EF4B234F92&playnext=1&index=2

And then tell us that is why everyone is moving away from computers.


Yeah, that's all kinds of infantilizing. You know what? Everyone in law school is an adult, with the remote possibility that there's some random solitary Doogie Howser exception out there. It's our money, our time, our career prospects, our interest in learning, and we are paying dearly for it. I can deal without a laptop in the class that bans them, fine; it's not a note-intensive class. That's not the point. I just don't entirely appreciate the parent/elementary school teacher-like attitude of a professor forbidding common and useful technology because of wanting to make sure that adult, college-educated law students behave themselves, pay attention in class, and don't write down too many things said. We can figure that out for ourselves, thanks, and if we don't, it'll no doubt reflect in our grades and the professor's willingness to give us references.


What's up with people making bold assumptions like this?

You're an adult when you have a family and contribute to the real world(meaningful work). I know I'm being very generalized but, unless you're talking about part-time LS, chances are law school students don't fall under those criteria; even in their late 20's.

revolution724
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby revolution724 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:16 am

ResolutePear wrote:
What's up with people making bold assumptions like this?

You're an adult when you have a family and contribute to the real world(meaningful work). I know I'm being very generalized but, unless you're talking about part-time LS, chances are law school students don't fall under those criteria; even in their late 20's.


As far as I know, everyone attains majority status upon reaching age 18; possibly 21 to get all rights and responsibilities associated with it. Everyone in law school, with some rare exceptions, is legally an adult. That's hardly a bold assumption. When most of the rest of the world considers a person an adult in terms of not requiring parental supervision or assistance in decision-making, I do find it problematic for law professors to hand down rules indicating a belief that such behavior-monitoring is still appropriate.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:17 am

romothesavior wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Our generation(s) are gifted by being born "into" technology. There are people in their late 30's and 40's who did not have much experience with computers and are still technically challenged.


Eh... I dunno if that's all of it. I have three profs for my core classes, and one has banned them, one is not a fan but he allows them, and another is a really big fan of laptops and highly encouraged us to bring them. The guy who is a big fan is over 80 years old, while the other two are probably in their 30s-40s. I think there is just a recognition among profs that they aren't that helpful in the first place.


Contrary of popular belief, older people are more accepting of technology. Why? Well, have you seen *the way* people invented crap 70 years ago? There was no doubt in a product; if it says it did something, then it did that and there was no questioning. Hell, technology(nukes) was an "automatic end war" button back then; why wouldn't it be? This is also very generalized but from talking to various older people in one of my majors and related majors.

People in their 30's and 40's on the other hand were born into a generation when computers were this "thing that gets in your way". Think.. LotusNotes for DOS. I don't blame the computer hate after that crap; some people just havn't come out of that yet. It didn't do anything amazing for them either; no internet, so if something didn't work.. you'd have to suck nerd cock to get the solution to something.

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ResolutePear
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:29 am

revolution724 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
What's up with people making bold assumptions like this?

You're an adult when you have a family and contribute to the real world(meaningful work). I know I'm being very generalized but, unless you're talking about part-time LS, chances are law school students don't fall under those criteria; even in their late 20's.


As far as I know, everyone attains majority status upon reaching age 18; possibly 21 to get all rights and responsibilities associated with it. Everyone in law school, with some rare exceptions, is legally an adult. That's hardly a bold assumption. When most of the rest of the world considers a person an adult in terms of not requiring parental supervision or assistance in decision-making, I do find it problematic for law professors to hand down rules indicating a belief that such behavior-monitoring is still appropriate.


Sorry, I just woke up and came across as a bit harsh. *twitch*

Okay, legally you're an adult at 18 or 21. But, are you really an adult if you can't support yourself or a family of your own? I fear that increasingly, people are relying on their parents for longer durations; well into their 30's. Might not be the case with law students, but chances are that most younger law students havn't worked a day in their life. How are they going to know what to expect?

You see time and time again people come onto these forums and bitch and moan because they have to work 80 hours for 160k/year + bonus. Oh, how dreadful! When you instead make 60k for the same hours, a 100k raise doesn't seem so bad.

You'll also see people go scream horrors that they didn't understand what being a lawyer entailed and it's soooo horrible being cramped in an office alllll day long. Yeah, well.. being a metal worker/underwater welder isn't paradise either.

I mean, these are questions and concerns posed by kids. You're an adult when you know what you have to do in life and stick with the plan, in my book.

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romothesavior
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Re: No Laptops in Class!

Postby romothesavior » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:58 am

RP, for the purposes of how I expect my professors and colleagues to treat me, I am an adult. Doesn't require any more explanation than that.




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