Share 1L Gunner Stories

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skoobily doobily
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby skoobily doobily » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:41 pm

charlesjd wrote:
solidsnake wrote:
rynabrius wrote:I think people worry way too much about gunner/non-gunner. If you want to raise your hand and ask a question, so long as it is not inane, I think you should do so. I think the "gunner" stigma creates a bimodal distribution of participation, thus exacerbating the 'gunner' problem. In other words, if people weren't so worried about being perceived as gunners, the class would be livelier, and the true gunners wouldn't be so annoying.

Take it from me, I was a gunner.



cr


No one wants to hear what others, especially in 1L classes has to say because it is usually a STUPID question/ a STUPID hypo/ etc/ etc. Yes there is such a thing as a stupid question and yes the profs have office hours, and no people should not raise their hands in class.


if you meant "no, people should not raise their hand in class" I vehemently disagree with you. Class is not just for lecture, it's for interaction.

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savagedm
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby savagedm » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:37 pm

rynabrius wrote:I think people worry way too much about gunner/non-gunner. If you want to raise your hand and ask a question, so long as it is not inane, I think you should do so. I think the "gunner" stigma creates a bimodal distribution of participation, thus exacerbating the 'gunner' problem. In other words, if people weren't so worried about being perceived as gunners, the class would be livelier, and the true gunners wouldn't be so annoying.

Take it from me, I was a gunner.

PS: I much prefer an honest gunner--one who shows up to class on time and prepared, asks good questions, but is not arrogant/filibustering--to a lazy slacker who thinks they are entitled to speak despite quite obviously not preparing. If you're going to make comments like, "Who's Lord Coke? His name is _awesome_," then perhaps silence should be your path to eloquence.

PPS: Regarding hypos--if you can construct good hypos that get at unresolved problems in the caselaw, by all means proffer them if the professor is receptive. One of my hypos more or less made it onto the final exam, and I breezed through that issue. Also, it's fun, and might even turn into a note topic! Just don't feel the "need" to present hypos--in general, don't speak unless you have something interesting to say, and honestly want to learn. If your motive is to impress others, reconsider raising that hand :)


Well it's not a question of making intelligent statements. I mean, ultimately if what you are saying pertains to the discussion and it doesn't take you 5 minutes to say an idea that takes most people 30 seconds, then you're fine and wont be looked down upon. The problem is there are about 4 or 5 people in every sections who insist on hearing themselves speak long and often.

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Adjudicator
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby Adjudicator » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:42 pm

savagedm wrote:
rynabrius wrote:I think people worry way too much about gunner/non-gunner. If you want to raise your hand and ask a question, so long as it is not inane, I think you should do so. I think the "gunner" stigma creates a bimodal distribution of participation, thus exacerbating the 'gunner' problem. In other words, if people weren't so worried about being perceived as gunners, the class would be livelier, and the true gunners wouldn't be so annoying.

Take it from me, I was a gunner.

PS: I much prefer an honest gunner--one who shows up to class on time and prepared, asks good questions, but is not arrogant/filibustering--to a lazy slacker who thinks they are entitled to speak despite quite obviously not preparing. If you're going to make comments like, "Who's Lord Coke? His name is _awesome_," then perhaps silence should be your path to eloquence.

PPS: Regarding hypos--if you can construct good hypos that get at unresolved problems in the caselaw, by all means proffer them if the professor is receptive. One of my hypos more or less made it onto the final exam, and I breezed through that issue. Also, it's fun, and might even turn into a note topic! Just don't feel the "need" to present hypos--in general, don't speak unless you have something interesting to say, and honestly want to learn. If your motive is to impress others, reconsider raising that hand :)


Well it's not a question of making intelligent statements. I mean, ultimately if what you are saying pertains to the discussion and it doesn't take you 5 minutes to say an idea that takes most people 30 seconds, then you're fine and wont be looked down upon. The problem is there are about 4 or 5 people in every sections who insist on hearing themselves speak long and often.


This is giving me flashbacks of my undergraduate years studying Philosophy... there was always that guy in every class who would raise his hand and offer some objection, hypothetical, or other rambling, incoherent thought that was relevant to nothing in particular.

And then there was the guy who got up in front of the class to give a presentation while wearing no shoes and eating an apple with a knife. When his presentation made no sense to anyone in the class he got defensive and started glaring at people while licking the blade.

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kalvano
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby kalvano » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:33 pm

You should absolutely participate in class...provided you have something on point or relevant to say, and that isn't repetitive. Ask questions about things that are confusing, or about ideas the professor proposes. Participating in class makes it way more interesting, especially if you disagree with what the professor / another student is saying.

That's not being a gunner.

A gunner is some jackdouche who almost explodes waiting to be called on, offers some 5-minute hypothetical on every goddamn thing he can think of, challenges the professor, tells other students that they are "wrong" instead of saying that he disagrees with them, and in general acts like a total tool.

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romothesavior
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby romothesavior » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:50 pm

Kalvano is spot on.

I'll also add that I'd guess that most people who call "Gunner!" on everyone who offers an idea are likely big state school, non-liberal arts students... aka people who rarely had to chime in with their opinion in undergrad. (That's just a total hypothesis... I have nothing to back it up other than my own personal experience).

To me, offering my opinion in class has always just been part of my education. I majored in philosophy at a small liberal arts school and I took classes with usually no more than 15 students, and they were typically as engaged and as willing to share as I was. I'm socially aware enough to know that I should definitely scale back in law school, and I don't plan on being any sort of a "gunner." But to me, sharing my thoughts (so long as they are relevant and somewhat insightful) during a class discussion is just a way of life. People shouldn't be afraid to ask questions and contribute when appropriate out of fear of being labeled a gunner.

That said, we all know a gunner when we see one, and there is nothing worse.

dudders
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby dudders » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:53 pm

Haven't any true gunner sightings yet (unless you maybe count that one guy who wore a suit to the orientation keg bbq).

There is a gunner prof in another section though who apparently memorized everyone's photos in advance of the first class so she knew all their names when they raised their hands. That would freak me out.

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traehekat
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby traehekat » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:55 pm

dudders wrote:Haven't any true gunner sightings yet (unless you maybe count that one guy who wore a suit to the orientation keg bbq).

There is a gunner prof in another section though who apparently memorized everyone's photos in advance of the first class so she knew all their names when they raised their hands. That would freak me out.


lol gunner prof, nice. he'll probably have his exam hypos finished at LEAST a week in advance, too.

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DeSimone
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby DeSimone » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:04 pm

dudders wrote:Haven't any true gunner sightings yet (unless you maybe count that one guy who wore a suit to the orientation keg bbq).

There is a gunner prof in another section though who apparently memorized everyone's photos in advance of the first class so she knew all their names when they raised their hands. That would freak me out.

lawl. that's a first!

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dresden doll
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby dresden doll » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:11 pm

DeSimone wrote:
dudders wrote:Haven't any true gunner sightings yet (unless you maybe count that one guy who wore a suit to the orientation keg bbq).

There is a gunner prof in another section though who apparently memorized everyone's photos in advance of the first class so she knew all their names when they raised their hands. That would freak me out.

lawl. that's a first!


My Contracts prof did the same. I actually found it to be a nice touch. Much more endearing than the professor who didn't bother to remember anyone 10 weeks into the class and couldn't recognize any of my classmates in the hallways.

sibley
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby sibley » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:12 pm

DeSimone wrote:
dudders wrote:Haven't any true gunner sightings yet (unless you maybe count that one guy who wore a suit to the orientation keg bbq).

There is a gunner prof in another section though who apparently memorized everyone's photos in advance of the first class so she knew all their names when they raised their hands. That would freak me out.

lawl. that's a first!


She has a photographic memory. She also memorized where a lot of people are from and what their backgrounds are. It's really only freaky when she goes "Bob, you know about mechanical engineering, what is the...." or something along those lines.

rynabrius
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby rynabrius » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:15 pm

sibley wrote:
DeSimone wrote:
dudders wrote:Haven't any true gunner sightings yet (unless you maybe count that one guy who wore a suit to the orientation keg bbq).

There is a gunner prof in another section though who apparently memorized everyone's photos in advance of the first class so she knew all their names when they raised their hands. That would freak me out.

lawl. that's a first!


She has a photographic memory. She also memorized where a lot of people are from and what their backgrounds are. It's really only freaky when she goes "Bob, you know about mechanical engineering, what is the...." or something along those lines.


Put her so-called photographic memory to test with a random-dot stereogram test. (Show her half a magic-eye puzzle, then a distractor stimulus, then the other half, and have her tell you what pops out.) I'd be willing to be a large sum she does not have true eidetic recall.

Link: http://www.slate.com/id/2140685

People who train their memories are capable of amazing feats.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Lorayne
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Memory_Championships

EDIT: I realize that this reply is, itself, gunnerish, but I wish more people knew about the benefits of mnemonics :(

sibley
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby sibley » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:23 pm

rynabrius wrote:Put her so-called photographic memory to test with a random-dot stereogram test. (Show her half a magic-eye puzzle, then a distractor stimulus, then the other half, and have her tell you what pops out.) I'd be willing to be a large sum she does not have true eidetic recall.

Link: http://www.slate.com/id/2140685

People who train their memories are capable of amazing feats.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Lorayne
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Memory_Championships

EDIT: I realize that this reply is, itself, gunnerish, but I wish more people knew about the benefits of mnemonics :(


You really think she's so interested in showing off to her students that she spent years perfecting her talent? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that her actual interest is law.
The term photographic memory doesn't even have to assume that someone can use their brain like film. It can just be a description of extraordinary recall.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:26 pm

sibley wrote:
rynabrius wrote:Put her so-called photographic memory to test with a random-dot stereogram test. (Show her half a magic-eye puzzle, then a distractor stimulus, then the other half, and have her tell you what pops out.) I'd be willing to be a large sum she does not have true eidetic recall.

Link: http://www.slate.com/id/2140685

People who train their memories are capable of amazing feats.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Lorayne
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Memory_Championships

EDIT: I realize that this reply is, itself, gunnerish, but I wish more people knew about the benefits of mnemonics :(


You really think she's so interested in showing off to her students that she spent years perfecting her talent? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that her actual interest is law.
The term photographic memory doesn't even have to assume that someone can use their brain like film. It can just be a description of extraordinary recall.


Maybe, instead of attempting to ascribe mythic powers to her in the form of a photographic memory, she could just be described as having very good memory. I've had professors memorize everyone's name the first day of class; while impressive, it's not a particularly rare skill.

rynabrius
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby rynabrius » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:27 pm

You really think she's so interested in showing off to her students that she spent years perfecting her talent?


Yes, because that's what she is doing when she memorizes your names and details. It doesn't take years, though. I see now that you were using the term in a more informal way. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I assumed you meant the term literally.

sibley
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby sibley » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:28 pm

rynabrius wrote:
You really think she's so interested in showing off to her students that she spent years perfecting her talent?


Yes, because that's what she is doing when she memorizes your names and details. It doesn't take years, though. I see now that you were using the term in a more informal way. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I assumed you meant the term literally.


I just said what was told to be my upperclassmen.

solidsnake
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby solidsnake » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:38 pm

dudders wrote:
There is a gunner prof in another section though who apparently memorized everyone's photos in advance of the first class so she knew all their names when they raised their hands. That would freak me out.


Had two different profs 1L yr that did this. It is behavior-shaping in a way because they can walk in on the first day and start with hard socratic. Students, upon witnessing that, feel like they can't hide, so they do their reading.

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Duralex
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby Duralex » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:25 am

FWIW, hard to know if they've already memorized the entire chart or just preliminarily memorized a handful of preselected names sufficient to carry out their little demonstration (only calling on people whose details they remembered--although if they took all comers, I suppose that'd be unlikely.) By tradition/legend a good proportion of law school profs like to ham it up (esp. at first.)

solidsnake
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby solidsnake » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:00 am

Duralex wrote:FWIW, hard to know if they've already memorized the entire chart or just preliminarily memorized a handful of preselected names sufficient to carry out their little demonstration (only calling on people whose details they remembered--although if they took all comers, I suppose that'd be unlikely.) By tradition/legend a good proportion of law school profs like to ham it up (esp. at first.)


One prof made a show of it at some point in that first class by going around the room and saying everybody's first and last name. The other answered enough questions by calling on a wide enough sample of students by using their last names that it became quite evident s/he knew everybody's face and name prior to walking into that room. They want you to know that they know that you know that they know. Behavior-shaping.

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kalvano
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby kalvano » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:17 am

This is all very weird. All of my profs ask that we introduce ourselves when we speak with them or speak in class, assured us they will learn our names soon enough, and had us fill out a seating chart.

ViIIager
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby ViIIager » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:27 am

Wow, people defending gunners popping into the thread already. That's funny, for one simple reason.

This is the second week of 1L.

Which students are actually qualified to spout off any legal distinctions/opinions that run counter to their professor's?

If you're raising your hand to "challenge" your professor at this point in LS, you're trying to gun, pure and simple. Even if you've read every case in your casebook, have your outline ready to go, and polished your brown nose before class, you're still not ready to take on a professional. I almost wish my professors let us record class so that three years from now we can look back on our ignorance as a lesson, though I'm sure the true gunners will just look back on it and wonder (incorrectly) why their professor was so stupid.

My favorite gunner in our class raises his hand at least three times a class, tries to take on the professor with some wrongheaded philosophical point from a totally irrelevant source, and starts every comment with "Well, I submit that blahblahblah..." while everyone in class tries to count ceiling tiles. Future professors, take note: institute a "no questions in the last five minutes of class" rule. Your students will thank you (before or after class).

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romothesavior
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby romothesavior » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:32 am

ViIIager wrote:Wow, people defending gunners popping into the thread already. That's funny, for one simple reason.

This is the second week of 1L.

Which students are actually qualified to spout off any legal distinctions/opinions that run counter to their professor's?

If you're raising your hand to "challenge" your professor at this point in LS, you're trying to gun, pure and simple. Even if you've read every case in your casebook, have your outline ready to go, and polished your brown nose before class, you're still not ready to take on a professional. I almost wish my professors let us record class so that three years from now we can look back on our ignorance as a lesson, though I'm sure the true gunners will just look back on it and wonder (incorrectly) why their professor was so stupid.

My favorite gunner in our class raises his hand at least three times a class, tries to take on the professor with some wrongheaded philosophical point from a totally irrelevant source, and starts every comment with "Well, I submit that blahblahblah..." while everyone in class tries to count ceiling tiles. Future professors, take note: institute a "no questions in the last five minutes of class" rule. Your students will thank you (before or after class)
.


You clearly didn't read one damn word of anything anyone said ITT. We aren't defending the working definition of gunner that you just threw out there. We all recognize that people who try to argue with profs or throw out absurd hypotheticals are idiots. In fact, no one really defended "gunners" at all in this thread; people defended students who occasionally offer their thoughts in class against the possibility of being labeled a gunner. Big distinction.

Next time you're thinking about writing some multi-paragraph rant that relies on a ridiculous strawman of what other people said, just save yourself the keystrokes.

sibley
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby sibley » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:35 am

Duralex wrote:FWIW, hard to know if they've already memorized the entire chart or just preliminarily memorized a handful of preselected names sufficient to carry out their little demonstration (only calling on people whose details they remembered--although if they took all comers, I suppose that'd be unlikely.) By tradition/legend a good proportion of law school profs like to ham it up (esp. at first.)


She called on the students who volunteered. She knew the names of every one of them. It wasn't as if she could select from a wide group at that point either as there were only a few with their hands raised at any given time.

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traehekat
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby traehekat » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:46 am

Man, Romo is touchy in the AM, lol.

And no, there is no defense of gunners up in hurr.

rynabrius
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby rynabrius » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:38 pm

I should mention that I think I can top the gunner professor stories. At the start of my 1L year, the incoming Dean claimed to have memorized everybody's name and face. He got peeved when it turned out that some people's names had been misprinted.

And yes, nobody is defending gunners, I just thought I'd do a public service by alleviating some of the anxiety about being a gunner. If you are worried about being a gunner, you are almost certainly not a gunner. Please raise your hand, because if you don't, the floor is open to gunners.

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vamedic03
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Re: Share 1L Gunner Stories

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:27 pm

romothesavior wrote:
ViIIager wrote:Wow, people defending gunners popping into the thread already. That's funny, for one simple reason.

This is the second week of 1L.

Which students are actually qualified to spout off any legal distinctions/opinions that run counter to their professor's?

If you're raising your hand to "challenge" your professor at this point in LS, you're trying to gun, pure and simple. Even if you've read every case in your casebook, have your outline ready to go, and polished your brown nose before class, you're still not ready to take on a professional. I almost wish my professors let us record class so that three years from now we can look back on our ignorance as a lesson, though I'm sure the true gunners will just look back on it and wonder (incorrectly) why their professor was so stupid.

My favorite gunner in our class raises his hand at least three times a class, tries to take on the professor with some wrongheaded philosophical point from a totally irrelevant source, and starts every comment with "Well, I submit that blahblahblah..." while everyone in class tries to count ceiling tiles. Future professors, take note: institute a "no questions in the last five minutes of class" rule. Your students will thank you (before or after class)
.


You clearly didn't read one damn word of anything anyone said ITT. We aren't defending the working definition of gunner that you just threw out there. We all recognize that people who try to argue with profs or throw out absurd hypotheticals are idiots. In fact, no one really defended "gunners" at all in this thread; people defended students who occasionally offer their thoughts in class against the possibility of being labeled a gunner. Big distinction.

Next time you're thinking about writing some multi-paragraph rant that relies on a ridiculous strawman of what other people said, just save yourself the keystrokes.


Unless the professor has specifically set aside time for questions or random 1L expounding, its not appropriate. A gunner is someone who interrupts class to ask some inane hypothetical or make some inane comment. IT DETRACTS FROM THE CLASS AND HARMS OTHER'S UNDERSTANDING. Usually the prof is trying to get to some point or is purposely leading things a certain way and when some jackass raises his hand to offer his hypothetical or ask some unrelated question or just keeps the prof from getting to the point it ruins the f'ing class for everyone else.

If you have a question or comment that has not been specifically solicited by the professor, save it for office hours.




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