Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

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tobecomealawyer
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Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby tobecomealawyer » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:05 pm

Long-timer lurker, first time poster. But this is a tough question...

I started filling out my character and fitness application, and all of the sudden a bad incident from my past came to the forefront of my mind. I want to get the TLS wisdom regarding the situation. Some background: the character and fitness asks for a listing of previous employers and asks you to identify if you were fired or asked to resign from a position. I think I resigned, but this situation is questionable.

A few years ago, I was very unhappy with my current position, and I was actively searching for new jobs. I found one, and I called my supervisor on Monday to let him know - as soon as possible - that I intended to give my two weeks notice on Friday.

On Wednesday, I was called to his office, and HR was there. They told me that if I intended to resign, they would prefer that I do it that day (since they didn't want me having access to client records). I told them I was stil inclined to resign on Friday. Then they told me if I didn't resign, I would be fired. So I resigned.

In my view, I resigned before I was asked to resign. I clearly wasn't fired. Your thoughts? I know full disclosure is best on character and fitness, but I don't want to indicate that I was asked to resign when I really wasn't... they just wanted me to resign sooner than I intended to.

tobecomealawyer
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby tobecomealawyer » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:47 pm

Also, it turns out that security clearances (needed for government jobs and some clerkships) ask the same question... thoughts?

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Jack Smirks » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:52 pm

You clearly resigned. They simply asked that you resign earlier. I mean had you never brought up your intention to leave the company they would not have asked you to resign, correct?

tobecomealawyer
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby tobecomealawyer » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:54 pm

naterj wrote:You clearly resigned. They simply asked that you resign earlier. I mean had you never brought up your intention to leave the company they would not have asked you to resign, correct?


Yes. They even sent me to training on Monday and Tuesday... companies don't spend thousands of dollars training employees they're going to ask to resign the next day.

You've made me feel a lot better. Thanks.

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danidancer
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby danidancer » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:56 pm

You resigned. The only reason they didn't accept your time line was because they didn't want you to have access to their records.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:09 am

'You resigned' is TCR as already indicated twice: from what I understand it is standard practice for businesses to 'fire' a person/ try and force a resignation on their terms once the person gives notice.. I think it is because they are concerned you will no longer be loyal to the company or put in decent effort (which is probably true in many cases) since you are about to step out the door.

Based on your report there is no question in my mind that the impetus for their request/action was your expressing the intention to resign/leave rather than a predecision on their part to ask you to resign for other reasons (even if they did intend this, unless it was expressed clearly prior to your statement of intent I don't think that there would be any way for them to successfully argue that you resigned because they forced you to).

There are some situations in which the employer will not accept the resignation, which can get trickier.. there is a legal basis for this in some cases, but it can probably also be disputed.

I have given notice and then immediately been asked to leave before (like you have indicated), I have been fired ('dismissed'), and I have been asked to resign (with the company saying that I wasn't a good fit for the position but that I was in 'excellent standing' in that case), so I have some experience in dealing with similar and worse situations (not yet for Bar Application, though I am anticipating it).

As an actual character and fitness evaluator told me in an anonymous conversation about my history (because I have several concerns about it): 'dishonesty is the kiss of death' (other than that, he made it sound like every issue can be worked through- at least the issues I have had, some of which are substantial).

fosterp
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby fosterp » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:37 am

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Last edited by fosterp on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matthies
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Matthies » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:54 am

tobecomealawyer wrote:Long-timer lurker, first time poster. But this is a tough question...

I started filling out my character and fitness application, and all of the sudden a bad incident from my past came to the forefront of my mind. I want to get the TLS wisdom regarding the situation. Some background: the character and fitness asks for a listing of previous employers and asks you to identify if you were fired or asked to resign from a position. I think I resigned, but this situation is questionable.

A few years ago, I was very unhappy with my current position, and I was actively searching for new jobs. I found one, and I called my supervisor on Monday to let him know - as soon as possible - that I intended to give my two weeks notice on Friday.

On Wednesday, I was called to his office, and HR was there. They told me that if I intended to resign, they would prefer that I do it that day (since they didn't want me having access to client records). I told them I was stil inclined to resign on Friday. Then they told me if I didn't resign, I would be fired. So I resigned.

In my view, I resigned before I was asked to resign. I clearly wasn't fired. Your thoughts? I know full disclosure is best on character and fitness, but I don't want to indicate that I was asked to resign when I really wasn't... they just wanted me to resign sooner than I intended to.


Write exactly what you did here. Expa=lain it as above. This will likley habve no effect so long as you tell the the story yu told here and if they respond to the C$F letter sent to them with the same story. He'll i had to disclosed geting fired, and 2 DUIs and a few public intox all well before law school. They did not even bat an eye. What they did send me a letter for and require me to send in a nototrized response was why i still had an out of state lic. I wastold by my a laywer freind who used to review the files that they really don't care what you did a few years ago, short of seriouse meblzemment so long as you tell them about it. Bujt they HATE suprises they find out you did not disclose something, or bent the facts, they go after you with a vegance. The cnsider that being dishionest to the court. You should be really fine with the explaination abouve, at least comapared to what I had to disclose and the things that they thought were imprtant.

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Matthies
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Matthies » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:56 am

fosterp wrote:Just wondering...obviously there are ways to access criminal records even if you take the steps to "remove" them from the public. But when it comes to past employers, I don't see how a background investigation can reveal the nature of departure from former employers short of personally contacting each and every one. How do they gain access to this information?

I got fired from a few jobs when I was a teenager for stealing and some other stupid reasons. Also was arrested as a juvenile for theft and psp. But this was 7 years ago. I'm not even finished with UG yet, so it will probably be a lapse of 11-12 years before I finish law school. Think this would fit in a time frame of "adequate rehabilitation?"


You have to list every job you worked at, adress, phone, email and superviros name for ten years or back to 18 which ever is longer. Same thing with every place you lived. Every arrest nd every tciket, at least in my state. My bar app was 40 typed pages.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:01 am

Matthies wrote:
fosterp wrote:Just wondering...obviously there are ways to access criminal records even if you take the steps to "remove" them from the public. But when it comes to past employers, I don't see how a background investigation can reveal the nature of departure from former employers short of personally contacting each and every one. How do they gain access to this information?

I got fired from a few jobs when I was a teenager for stealing and some other stupid reasons. Also was arrested as a juvenile for theft and psp. But this was 7 years ago. I'm not even finished with UG yet, so it will probably be a lapse of 11-12 years before I finish law school. Think this would fit in a time frame of "adequate rehabilitation?"


You have to list every job you worked at, adress, phone, email and superviros name for ten years or back to 18 which ever is longer. Same thing with every place you lived. Every arrest nd every tciket, at least in my state. My bar app was 40 typed pages.

Good God :shock:

fosterp
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby fosterp » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:28 am

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Last edited by fosterp on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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voice of reason
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby voice of reason » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:08 am

Lawquacious wrote: from what I understand it is standard practice for businesses to 'fire' a person/ try and force a resignation on their terms once the person gives notice.


I hope it's rare and I'm thankful it's never done anywhere I've worked. This is generally a terrible business practice because it incentivizes current employees to quit without notice. It could only be routine at businesses that are in a position to readily exploit the labor pool or that are badly managed.

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jayn3
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby jayn3 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:53 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
Matthies wrote:
fosterp wrote:Just wondering...obviously there are ways to access criminal records even if you take the steps to "remove" them from the public. But when it comes to past employers, I don't see how a background investigation can reveal the nature of departure from former employers short of personally contacting each and every one. How do they gain access to this information?

I got fired from a few jobs when I was a teenager for stealing and some other stupid reasons. Also was arrested as a juvenile for theft and psp. But this was 7 years ago. I'm not even finished with UG yet, so it will probably be a lapse of 11-12 years before I finish law school. Think this would fit in a time frame of "adequate rehabilitation?"


You have to list every job you worked at, adress, phone, email and superviros name for ten years or back to 18 which ever is longer. Same thing with every place you lived. Every arrest nd every tciket, at least in my state. My bar app was 40 typed pages.

Good God :shock:

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Matthies
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Matthies » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:45 am

fosterp wrote:
Matthies wrote:
fosterp wrote:Just wondering...obviously there are ways to access criminal records even if you take the steps to "remove" them from the public. But when it comes to past employers, I don't see how a background investigation can reveal the nature of departure from former employers short of personally contacting each and every one. How do they gain access to this information?

I got fired from a few jobs when I was a teenager for stealing and some other stupid reasons. Also was arrested as a juvenile for theft and psp. But this was 7 years ago. I'm not even finished with UG yet, so it will probably be a lapse of 11-12 years before I finish law school. Think this would fit in a time frame of "adequate rehabilitation?"


You have to list every job you worked at, adress, phone, email and superviros name for ten years or back to 18 which ever is longer. Same thing with every place you lived. Every arrest nd every tciket, at least in my state. My bar app was 40 typed pages.


So what is a person to do if you can't remember every ticket, or all the specific details? I suppose we are supposed to do our own investigation?


Yes, and then if you can't find the info say what you did, where you looked, and that they had no info on you anymore (inlcud a letter if you can get one). Some states seems more lieant on this, but my state wanted everything and if you did not give them enough reasons (i.e explinations and paper trail) they held you app and asked for more. Start your bar app erly, I started in Jan and was done getting everything I need just before the May 1 deadline.

sarahd
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby sarahd » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:08 am

Related question for those who have investigated themselves in filling out this form...how on earth does one go about finding information on old creditors. In my late teens I had a credit card that was charged off...and then I paid it 2 years later. It is obviously not on my credit report, 20 years later. I am assuming this needs to be disclosed, but how on earth to find out information such as dates, etc on this, especially since I don't even recall which card it was. (Lesson here, keep better records than I when in your twenties.)

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Matthies
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Matthies » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:24 am

sarahd wrote:Related question for those who have investigated themselves in filling out this form...how on earth does one go about finding information on old creditors. In my late teens I had a credit card that was charged off...and then I paid it 2 years later. It is obviously not on my credit report, 20 years later. I am assuming this needs to be disclosed, but how on earth to find out information such as dates, etc on this, especially since I don't even recall which card it was. (Lesson here, keep better records than I when in your twenties.)


If you can;t find something then say that, but BACK IT UP. If you say I searched X, conected Y, ran my Credit report, can't find it but know it happened, then at least in my experince, you shoudl be ok. When freinds said stuff Like I got a tciket in Utah but don't have it anymore, that when you get a letter saying prove to us you can't find it. So show a trail of trying to find it, and if you can't, then you should be oK. And yea keeps records over evrything from now on

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kalvano
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby kalvano » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:36 pm

Matthies wrote:Yes, and then if you can't find the info say what you did, where you looked, and that they had no info on you anymore (inlcud a letter if you can get one). Some states seems more lieant on this, but my state wanted everything and if you did not give them enough reasons (i.e explinations and paper trail) they held you app and asked for more. Start your bar app erly, I started in Jan and was done getting everything I need just before the May 1 deadline.



I already did this for my numerous speeding tickets for some schools. The counties don't have any records (I searched their on-line databases), it's not on my record (criminal background check or driving record). Some are from 10, 11 years ago and I can't remember a damn thing about them. Some were dismissed after defensive driving or deferred adjudication and I don't have the records anymore. I can't even remember times, cities, or dates.

I know I have a long time before I even need to think about it, but what am I going to have to do?

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Matthies
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Matthies » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:37 pm

kalvano wrote:
Matthies wrote:Yes, and then if you can't find the info say what you did, where you looked, and that they had no info on you anymore (inlcud a letter if you can get one). Some states seems more lieant on this, but my state wanted everything and if you did not give them enough reasons (i.e explinations and paper trail) they held you app and asked for more. Start your bar app erly, I started in Jan and was done getting everything I need just before the May 1 deadline.



I already did this for my numerous speeding tickets for some schools. The counties don't have any records (I searched their on-line databases), it's not on my record (criminal background check or driving record). Some are from 10, 11 years ago and I can't remember a damn thing about them. Some were dismissed after defensive driving or deferred adjudication and I don't have the records anymore. I can't even remember times, cities, or dates.

I know I have a long time before I even need to think about it, but what am I going to have to do?


Here is what i did, I sent a letter to the X state requesting a druving record (not the state you lic in the state you got the ticket in) and then include it, with nothing on it, in my file. I also conatcted an courts where I got in trouble and got a letter from them saying I hve no recornd anymore. So long as you include SOMETHING showing you looked other then, "hey I googled it, did not infd asnything, wrote up my app in five mins jthxbi" you should be fine. Just make it look like you made a through search and they likley won't care. I thought this might happen six yeras ago so i got letters from all the courts int he twon I lived saying they had no reconrd of my old charges (meaning I completed all the requiremnts) and sent those in. They did not seem to care they were six+ years old, just that I sent them something. My freinds that did not got a letter saying your file is on hold, send us something. So there you go.

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Matthies
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Re: Bar Exam Background Check - Resign or Asked to Resign

Postby Matthies » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:41 pm

Oh yea, and I had to send them a letter explaining why i went to like six diffrent colleges over 15 years in like 4 states, even though i ec=xpolained that on my app, i move alot and back then they did not have software for deslyxics so i failed out a lot. They didn't care about y DUIs, or public intox, or geting fired, cuase I sent them stuff on that, but just listuing my schools was not enough i had to send them an affidavit saying I had not been kicked out of any of these schools, plus a letter saying I was in good standing when i left (not expelled). So keep all the shit from your LSAT file, cuase you can use that later to show you were not expelled. bascilly from thsi point on KEEP EVERYTHING and GET EVERYTHING you can find. Give them so much they won't ask for anything else.




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