Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

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Would you sign a petition to the ABA requiring a standardized curve for all law schools?

Yes
39
54%
No
33
46%
 
Total votes: 72

Danteshek
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Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Danteshek » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:01 pm

The ABA needs to bring back the 3.0 curve and require a standardized grade distribution for all law schools as a condition of accreditation. No more obfuscation of academic performance. This is the only way to combat grade inflation and restore academic integrity in our law schools. Leave it to employers to determine the value of a 3.0 or a 3.5 at a particular law school. They can make value judgments about students without requiring complex assessments of a school's idiosyncratic grading system. HYS, Berkeley and Chicago would be forced to play by the same rules (i.e. letter grades on a curve). Loyola LA would not need to raise its curve to catch up with USC and UCLA. This is a very easy solution to a problem that is only getting worse.

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:06 pm

I agree with you 100%.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:08 pm

What's more important, GPA or class placement... ie. top 20%, etc.?

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kalvano
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby kalvano » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:09 pm

I think they should do away with a curve entirely and grade you on your performance.

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jgator1
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby jgator1 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:10 pm

I think that solution isn't necessary. Many top schools use a higher curve in order to eliminate cut throat competition between students. If you're at a T14 school, the name speaks for itself and making a more pleasant experience for students outweighs having a slightly more accurately distributed grading system. I agree that grade inflation is a growing problem, but the higher curves at top schools don't necessarily warrant doing away with their current curves.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:14 pm

Dr. Strangelove wrote:I agree with you 100%.


This. While rank is all that really matters, it's a psychological thing in part. I can't imagine what it would be like to work and work and work and land at median with a 2.67... Some employers actually do have strict GPA (not rank) cutoffs, as I believe the Loyola article notes, and this is pretty unfair to students...

I would actually like to see the universal median at a slightly kinder 3.3, however. I wish we had that.

narrowlytailored
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby narrowlytailored » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:18 pm

What are the implications of a school having no curve? My school has a policy to not curve, so the grade you earn is the grade you get. Does this make my 3.65 worse than a curved 3.65?

Thoughts? Thanks!

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:18 pm

Why bother with the grades at all? (seriously). Just have rank and rank alone.

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Billy Blanks
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Billy Blanks » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:25 pm

If you just have rank, then you in effect have the Chicago grading system (minute difference easily differentiated). If you have grades, it seems weird to curve. All the curve does is identify class rank, that's its whole purpose. If you want to do that, then simply do away with grades. Grades, to me, seem a reflection on the quality of work (Superior - A, Excellent - B, Satisfactory - C, etc.), which has nothing to do with the quality of your peer's work. Since these systems all have a teleological function anyway, simply identifying the goal first should make the reporting system obvious.

rundoxierun
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:29 pm

Danteshek wrote:The ABA needs to bring back the 3.0 curve and require a standardized grade distribution for all law schools as a condition of accreditation. No more obfuscation of academic performance. This is the only way to combat grade inflation and restore academic integrity in our law schools. Leave it to employers to determine the value of a 3.0 or a 3.5 at a particular law school. They can make value judgments about students without requiring complex assessments of a school's idiosyncratic grading system. HYS, Berkeley and Chicago would be forced to play by the same rules (i.e. letter grades on a curve). Loyola LA would not need to raise its curve to catch up with USC and UCLA. This is a very easy solution to a problem that is only getting worse.


How would a standardized curve help anything at all??

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capitalacq
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby capitalacq » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:35 pm

don't go to some TTT with a shitty curve. problem solved

09042014
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:37 pm

kalvano wrote:I think they should do away with a curve entirely and grade you on your performance.


How? What does a B look like?

yesofcourse
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby yesofcourse » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:40 pm

kalvano wrote:I think they should do away with a curve entirely and grade you on your performance.


This wouldn't work b/c there is too strong of an incentive for teachers to give their students higher grades than they deserve. E.g. the higher the grades the better the job prospects; the better jobs the more recognized the school gets; and teachers obviously want the school they teach at to be more prestigious.

Danteshek
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Danteshek » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:08 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
Danteshek wrote:The ABA needs to bring back the 3.0 curve and require a standardized grade distribution for all law schools as a condition of accreditation. No more obfuscation of academic performance. This is the only way to combat grade inflation and restore academic integrity in our law schools. Leave it to employers to determine the value of a 3.0 or a 3.5 at a particular law school. They can make value judgments about students without requiring complex assessments of a school's idiosyncratic grading system. HYS, Berkeley and Chicago would be forced to play by the same rules (i.e. letter grades on a curve). Loyola LA would not need to raise its curve to catch up with USC and UCLA. This is a very easy solution to a problem that is only getting worse.


How would a standardized curve help anything at all??


Employers wouldn't have to parse the quantitative difference (implications for class rank) between a 3.2 at one school and a 3.2 at another school. Employers will bring their assumptions to the table regarding student quality, but at least they will be better informed. If an employer thinks that top 20% at one school is equivalent to top 40% at another school, then they can more easily make that distinction where a precise class rank is not listed on the resume.

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truffleshuffle
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby truffleshuffle » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:19 pm

jgator1 wrote:I think that solution isn't necessary. Many top schools use a higher curve in order to eliminate cut throat competition between students. If you're at a T14 school, the name speaks for itself and making a more pleasant experience for students outweighs having a slightly more accurately distributed grading system. I agree that grade inflation is a growing problem, but the higher curves at top schools don't necessarily warrant doing away with their current curves.


God forbid someone be judged for how they performed in law school rather than the name of the school they got accepted to.

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capitalacq
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby capitalacq » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:25 pm

truffleshuffle wrote:
jgator1 wrote:I think that solution isn't necessary. Many top schools use a higher curve in order to eliminate cut throat competition between students. If you're at a T14 school, the name speaks for itself and making a more pleasant experience for students outweighs having a slightly more accurately distributed grading system. I agree that grade inflation is a growing problem, but the higher curves at top schools don't necessarily warrant doing away with their current curves.


God forbid someone be judged for how they performed in law school rather than the name of the school they got accepted to.

because all schools are equal.

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truffleshuffle
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby truffleshuffle » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:45 pm

capitalacq wrote:
truffleshuffle wrote:
jgator1 wrote:I think that solution isn't necessary. Many top schools use a higher curve in order to eliminate cut throat competition between students. If you're at a T14 school, the name speaks for itself and making a more pleasant experience for students outweighs having a slightly more accurately distributed grading system. I agree that grade inflation is a growing problem, but the higher curves at top schools don't necessarily warrant doing away with their current curves.


God forbid someone be judged for how they performed in law school rather than the name of the school they got accepted to.

because all schools are equal.


of course not, but within any particular school there should be a class rank so that the top 10% and the bottom of the class are clearly defined.

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Cavalier
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Cavalier » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:51 pm

capitalacq wrote:don't go to some TTT with a shitty curve. problem solved

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby Danteshek » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:33 pm

The academic integrity issues definitely seem more pronounced the higher you go. Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, Chicago and Stanford are not going to lead the way on this one. This is why ABA action is necessary. This pattern is very similar to what is going on in the business school world.

d34d9823
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:36 pm

Cavalier wrote:
capitalacq wrote:don't go to some TTT with a shitty curve. problem solved

09042014
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:36 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Cavalier wrote:
capitalacq wrote:don't go to some TTT with a shitty curve. problem solved


TCR is to go to a TTT that has an easy curve like Northwestern.

d34d9823
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Cavalier wrote:
capitalacq wrote:don't go to some TTT with a shitty curve. problem solved


TCR is to go to a TTT that has an easy curve like Northwestern.

Lol, DF, don't you go to Northwestern?

09042014
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:39 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Cavalier wrote:


TCR is to go to a TTT that has an easy curve like Northwestern.

Lol, DF, don't you go to Northwestern?


Not until September, but it's got a ridiculous curve.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:41 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Not until September, but it's got a ridiculous curve.



How does it stack up against the new GULC curve

http://www.georgetownsba.com/2009/12/ne ... curve.html

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vanwinkle
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Re: Should the ABA require a curve for all law schools?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:41 pm

Danteshek wrote:The academic integrity issues definitely seem more pronounced the higher you go. Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, Chicago and Stanford are not going to lead the way on this one. This is why ABA action is necessary. This pattern is very similar to what is going on in the business school world.

What academic integrity issues?

If anything, the schools you named are leading the way, away from a traditional grades-based system altogether. Honors/Pass/Low Pass type systems might replace GPAs at more schools.




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