Bar Review Support Group

(Study Tips, Dealing With Stress, Maintaining a Social Life, Financial Aid, Internships, Bar Exam, Careers in Law . . . )
User avatar
AR75
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:59 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby AR75 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:57 pm

Barely. Just barely.

Congraduations, slugger. Post-bar plans (besides a three-day coke binder)?

User avatar
chris0805
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby chris0805 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:52 am

Does anyone know of any place on the web that lists even a hint of what MBE conversion scales/percentiles look like. I mean, 120 raw score is only 60 %, but what would that equal because I don't really have any idea?

I haven't taken a full exam yet or anything, just curious.

User avatar
ggocat
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:51 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby ggocat » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:39 am

chris0805 wrote:Does anyone know of any place on the web that lists even a hint of what MBE conversion scales/percentiles look like. I mean, 120 raw score is only 60 %, but what would that equal because I don't really have any idea?

I haven't taken a full exam yet or anything, just curious.

I am curious about this, too. I would have thought barbri/kaplan would be able to say, if anyone. But they didn't.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby Matthies » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:43 am

chris0805 wrote:Does anyone know of any place on the web that lists even a hint of what MBE conversion scales/percentiles look like. I mean, 120 raw score is only 60 %, but what would that equal because I don't really have any idea?

I haven't taken a full exam yet or anything, just curious.


I'm not sure what your asking here, cuase well i suck at math. But MBE is 200 questions, 1 point per question, but the scale is going to range from state to state, the MBE while a national test, is scaled based on state perforamce not national performace (so not like the LSAT). Each state will set the scale based on how that states test takers did, then determine what % of the over all bar the MBE portion counts for in that state.

User avatar
nealric
Posts: 2391
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:53 am

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby nealric » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:56 am

chris0805 wrote:Does anyone know of any place on the web that lists even a hint of what MBE conversion scales/percentiles look like. I mean, 120 raw score is only 60 %, but what would that equal because I don't really have any idea?

I haven't taken a full exam yet or anything, just curious.


http://seperac.com/bar/

User avatar
chris0805
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby chris0805 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:05 pm

nealric wrote:
chris0805 wrote:Does anyone know of any place on the web that lists even a hint of what MBE conversion scales/percentiles look like. I mean, 120 raw score is only 60 %, but what would that equal because I don't really have any idea?

I haven't taken a full exam yet or anything, just curious.


http://seperac.com/bar/


Thanks, the MBE calculator here is exactly what I was looking for. It seems that 65 - 70 % correct puts you at the median and 80-85 % correct puts you in the 95th percentile.

User avatar
ggocat
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:51 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby ggocat » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:26 pm

chris0805 wrote:Thanks, the MBE calculator here is exactly what I was looking for. It seems that 65 - 70 % correct puts you at the median and 80-85 % correct puts you in the 95th percentile.

Do you determine this by fiddling with the scaled score until the raw score for 80% (for example) is 160 (assuming that raw score is simply the number correct divided by 200)?

User avatar
chris0805
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby chris0805 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:03 pm

ggocat wrote:
chris0805 wrote:Thanks, the MBE calculator here is exactly what I was looking for. It seems that 65 - 70 % correct puts you at the median and 80-85 % correct puts you in the 95th percentile.

Do you determine this by fiddling with the scaled score until the raw score for 80% (for example) is 160 (assuming that raw score is simply the number correct divided by 200)?


Yep. Also, your raw score didn't need to be as high in FEB 2008 as it had to be in July 2008 to get the same scale scores apparently.

User avatar
PKSebben
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby PKSebben » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:12 pm

that website is pretty solid, I meant to post up the link earlier.

User avatar
NewHere
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby NewHere » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:12 pm

Does anyone know whether essays are graded on a separate curve for handwriters and computer users?

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby Matthies » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:10 pm

NewHere wrote:Does anyone know whether essays are graded on a separate curve for handwriters and computer users?


Same curve in my state for computer or handwritten

User avatar
NewHere
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby NewHere » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:39 pm

Sorry, I think I phrased that clumsily. (Although maybe you understood what I meant and answered accordingly.) What I meant to ask was: are the handwriters curved against other handwriters or against everyone else?

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby Matthies » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:13 pm

NewHere wrote:Sorry, I think I phrased that clumsily. (Although maybe you understood what I meant and answered accordingly.) What I meant to ask was: are the handwriters curved against other handwriters or against everyone else?


Just to give you an idea of how it works, at least in my state the grading is like this:

They score the MBE for all takers in the state, then based on the states pass score for the whole exam(276 need to pass out of a possible, but impossible, 400 total points for MBE + essay). Then based on how well the MBE takers did in the state and the states pass rate they set the curve for the MBE part.

The essays are farmed out to lawyers and judges who have volunteered to grade them. We use the MEE essays, which are written for several states, but Colorado picks the correct answers and how many points each item on the check list gets. So its not what the NBE thinks is the right answers, its what the CO board of law examers think are the right answers.

So you essays go to two lawyers. Each one grades them indepandalty of the other using the bar exam point sheet. They are then averaged and that's the score you get on the essay section. Once all the essays are graded the bar, again looking at the overall score and the states bar passage rate and the minimum to pass then sets the curve for the essay section.

So each section gets curved by the state based on the states numbers and results. The two scores MBE and ESSAy are then added together and if you get a 276 or better you pass, if not you fail. So the curve for the exam changes ever time its given. And its usually a better curve for July (meaning you can miss more and get a higher score) than for Feb. because in July we have about 1000 test takers in Feb its usually around 300. So you have to get more "right" in Feb's curve than July's curve. This is why allot of people will tell you the Feb bar is "harder" is really just that the curve is more brutal becuase there are fewer folks taking it.

User avatar
TTT-LS
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby TTT-LS » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:33 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NewHere
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby NewHere » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:55 pm

That's a good score! BarBri told us today that generally people only go up from their practice score. (Ours isn't until next Tuesday.)

User avatar
NewHere
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby NewHere » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:26 am

I don't understand that Seperac site. I see how it would help analyze your weaknesses after you've taken the bar once, but before taking the bar . . . has anyone figured out how essays are scored?

For example, the Feb 2009 calculator says that if your MBE raw score is 131, you need a score of 49.2 on the essays + MPT to pass. What does that mean? What kind of essay grades?

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby Matthies » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:33 pm

NewHere wrote:I don't understand that Seperac site. I see how it would help analyze your weaknesses after you've taken the bar once, but before taking the bar . . . has anyone figured out how essays are scored?

For example, the Feb 2009 calculator says that if your MBE raw score is 131, you need a score of 49.2 on the essays + MPT to pass. What does that mean? What kind of essay grades?


Its toally going to vary with the essays your given for each bar exam and what your state weights them, really no way to know, as they chage each time, sometimes a wills essay will be worth a possible 20 points, next time only 15 beucase of he issues adressed, but MPTS are usually worth the same ampunt each time.

User avatar
NewHere
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby NewHere » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:28 pm

Right, so what does that site do? I mean, even if you have an idea how well you will do on the MBE, you still have no clue what kind of essay score you'll need.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby Matthies » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:54 pm

NewHere wrote:Right, so what does that site do? I mean, even if you have an idea how well you will do on the MBE, you still have no clue what kind of essay score you'll need.


Yea agree, hence why I don't undertsand this what do you need to get X mentality, its not the LSAT, all you need to is to pass the damn thing. :) Your local barbri should give you idea where you should be scoring or how many issues to hit on essays to pass

User avatar
NewHere
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby NewHere » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:18 pm

hence why I don't undertsand this what do you need to get X mentality, its not the LSAT, all you need to is to pass the damn thing. :) Your local barbri should give you idea where you should be scoring or how many issues to hit on essays to pass


What BarBri tells you is that the average passing candidate scores (this is for NY) are 125-130 on the MBE; 5/10 on each of the essays; 5 on the MPT, and 60% on the NYMC. And that's useful information. But what you say is exactly right: "all you need is to pass the damn thing"! And so it would be good to know, if you feel confident about one part, how badly you can do on the other parts and still pass. Or if you feel you are terrible at one part, how well you need to do on the other parts and still pass.

The closest to an answer BarBri has given so far is that (again, for NY) there have been people who passed with an MBE score of 90, and that people who score 145 or higher generally don't fail.

I guess what I'm looking for doesn't exist. (Something like if you get 135 on the MBE, you can get a 4 average on the essays. If you get a 115 on the MBE, you'll need an average of 6 on the essays.)

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby Matthies » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:30 pm

NewHere wrote:
hence why I don't undertsand this what do you need to get X mentality, its not the LSAT, all you need to is to pass the damn thing. :) Your local barbri should give you idea where you should be scoring or how many issues to hit on essays to pass


What BarBri tells you is that the average passing candidate scores (this is for NY) are 125-130 on the MBE; 5/10 on each of the essays; 5 on the MPT, and 60% on the NYMC. And that's useful information. But what you say is exactly right: "all you need is to pass the damn thing"! And so it would be good to know, if you feel confident about one part, how badly you can do on the other parts and still pass. Or if you feel you are terrible at one part, how well you need to do on the other parts and still pass.

The closest to an answer BarBri has given so far is that (again, for NY) there have been people who passed with an MBE score of 90, and that people who score 145 or higher generally don't fail.

I guess what I'm looking for doesn't exist. (Something like if you get 135 on the MBE, you can get a 4 average on the essays. If you get a 115 on the MBE, you'll need an average of 6 on the essays.)


Yea bascilly there is no way to tell unless your state allways uses the same curve. Here bascilly I knew if I got a 140+ on the MBE I could skip 2 full esssyas assuming I got half the points on the other essays. bascilly here is was whatever you got on the MBE - from 276 the remainder is what you need on the essays to pass. Since the only thing I could really preidct was about where my MBE might land based on % of questions I was getting right, and that the 2 MPTS here were worth 2.5 essays each, when I got my exam I quickly read all the essays, picked the ones i felt I knew best, stared those, started the MPT, then when that was done did the essays in order of how well i thought I new them saving my worst subjects for last and the least amount of time.

User avatar
TTT-LS
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby TTT-LS » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:02 pm

,
Last edited by TTT-LS on Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NewHere
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby NewHere » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:32 pm

TTT-LS wrote:Wait -- 130 MBE is clearly passing on the NY Bar (assuming average-ish state essays/MPT)? Scaled? If that's true, then NY's reputation as a tough bar exam should seriously be reconsidered.

No, raw. If you get 130 out of 200 questions right, you pass if you also get average-ish essays/MPT/state MC.

User avatar
observationalist
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:55 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby observationalist » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:44 am

NewHere wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:Wait -- 130 MBE is clearly passing on the NY Bar (assuming average-ish state essays/MPT)? Scaled? If that's true, then NY's reputation as a tough bar exam should seriously be reconsidered.

No, raw. If you get 130 out of 200 questions right, you pass if you also get average-ish essays/MPT/state MC.



Bump... self-studying here in Nashville for the summer, taking NY bar (White Plains... going straight to Mamaroneck after things wrap up on Wednesday), then moving to Chile in the fall. Figure I could use all the Matthies advice I can get before I go off saving trees in South America.

The seperac website is pretty interesting, so thanks.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Bar Review Support Group

Postby Matthies » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:11 pm

observationalist wrote:
NewHere wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:Wait -- 130 MBE is clearly passing on the NY Bar (assuming average-ish state essays/MPT)? Scaled? If that's true, then NY's reputation as a tough bar exam should seriously be reconsidered.

No, raw. If you get 130 out of 200 questions right, you pass if you also get average-ish essays/MPT/state MC.



Bump... self-studying here in Nashville for the summer, taking NY bar (White Plains... going straight to Mamaroneck after things wrap up on Wednesday), then moving to Chile in the fall. Figure I could use all the Matthies advice I can get before I go off saving trees in South America.

The seperac website is pretty interesting, so thanks.


WTF your going to practice international environmental law, and you did not go to Yale? The world as TLS knows it is crumbling forever.

PS. Today I picked up my first case where I'm actually using the ESA to try and kill another species. Crazy world we live in.


Good luck on the bar my friend.




Return to “Forum for Law School Students”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: addie1412, Gunner19, lymenheimer and 6 guests