xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

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keg411
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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby keg411 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:06 pm

The biggest problem with xeoh's method is burnout. You want to be ready to grind for most of your waking hours during exam period. If you're doing a crapload of work and killing yourself all semester there is a chance you won't have enough energy for the home stretch.

It's not 'how much work you do"; it's how well you write exams. By all means, if you enjoy studying every nuance of the law, go for it... but to me, it seems like a waste of time and likely will not help you come exam time.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby mbusch22 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:30 pm

keg411 wrote:The biggest problem with xeoh's method is burnout. You want to be ready to grind for most of your waking hours during exam period. If you're doing a crapload of work and killing yourself all semester there is a chance you won't have enough energy for the home stretch.

It's not 'how much work you do"; it's how well you write exams. By all means, if you enjoy studying every nuance of the law, go for it... but to me, it seems like a waste of time and likely will not help you come exam time.


This makes sense but personally I found it more beneficial to grind it out all semester, so I could go into exams in an almost relaxed mood, basically just memorizing my outlines and taking a few practice tests, while a lot of other people were freaking out trying to cram a ton of work right in the end. Worked for me, anyway.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby Veyron » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:08 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
and like the guy giving the advice said SLEEPING on the WEEKENDS is KEY.


"catching up on sleep" is a myth. it doesn't do anything.


Placebo effect FTW!!!

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BarbellDreams
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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:30 pm

Everyone would like to just grind it out all semester, but doing it and being efficient are nearly impossible as most people burnout. I turned up the pace around mid October and REALLY turned it up mid November to the point where between mid-November and the end of finals I was staying in the library till 10 p.m. every night. Worked for me in terms of grades, but now I am too paranoid that I can't repeat and am already starting to feel like burnout is approaching.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby A'nold » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:57 pm

I am a "cram it all in in the last month" kind of guy and it works for me.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby lawschooliseasy » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:13 am

keg411 wrote:The biggest problem with xeoh's method is burnout. You want to be ready to grind for most of your waking hours during exam period. If you're doing a crapload of work and killing yourself all semester there is a chance you won't have enough energy for the home stretch.

It's not 'how much work you do"; it's how well you write exams. By all means, if you enjoy studying every nuance of the law, go for it... but to me, it seems like a waste of time and likely will not help you come exam time.


Idk, I front-loaded heavily last semester so by the time exams rolled around I didn't really do much but take a couple of practice exams. I came out top 1-2% at a T30.

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BruceWayne
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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:26 am

jawsthegreat wrote:
Veyron wrote:
KingJames6 wrote:X gets 4-4.5 hours of sleep a night?? How is this possible?


You must not be a law student. Its 2 weeks into the semester and I'm already down to 4-4.5 a night (I read cases VERY slowly and carefully) - takes me about 10 hours a day just to read for class. The first week or two is hard but you get used to it... and like the guy giving the advice said SLEEPING on the WEEKENDS is KEY.


All of the people like you make my LOL so much. The sheer volume over what is required that you spend studying is so LOL, it's not even funny.


One thing that I've got to say that is a bit ugh about UVA is that a lot of people do this: they act like people who study like mad are crazy for doing it, when A LOT of people at UVA study like this. I hate to make a jab at my school but that's one thing that I don't like about UVA. People act like we are the laid back school of the top 14 and that we are "not like those kids at Chicago" etc. Plenty of people here go HARD. They just go hard and then turn around and say they were at a keg or something when you ask them about it.

Frankly to any 0ls reading this thread, xeoh's work ethic is only a little bit above the average student at many of these top schools. Actually if you read the guy's post even he says that he was only barely above in terms of intensity compared to the other students at UCLA.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby keg411 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:52 am

lawschooliseasy wrote:
keg411 wrote:The biggest problem with xeoh's method is burnout. You want to be ready to grind for most of your waking hours during exam period. If you're doing a crapload of work and killing yourself all semester there is a chance you won't have enough energy for the home stretch.

It's not 'how much work you do"; it's how well you write exams. By all means, if you enjoy studying every nuance of the law, go for it... but to me, it seems like a waste of time and likely will not help you come exam time.


Idk, I front-loaded heavily last semester so by the time exams rolled around I didn't really do much but take a couple of practice exams. I came out top 1-2% at a T30.


I don't think what we're saying is all that different. I'm not saying don't front-load and don't have your outlines ready when exam period starts. I'm just saying you don't need to be the last person in the library every night trying to find every nuance in the law to do well.

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Stringer6
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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby Stringer6 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:49 am

Actually if you read the guy's post even he says that he was only barely above in terms of intensity compared to the other students at UCLA.


no he didn't. compared to some other top students, maybe. but not compared to the average student.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:22 am

Stringer6 wrote:
Actually if you read the guy's post even he says that he was only barely above in terms of intensity compared to the other students at UCLA.


no he didn't. compared to some other top students, maybe. but not compared to the average student.


No. He said that he was the hardest worker, but that it wasn't by a large margin. Believe the tls mantra about most people not working that hard if you want to. You need to realize the type of kid who's saying this. You're not getting that answer from an average normal person. You're getting it from hyper type A people who think Duke is an "average" school and anything outside the top 25 is a "TTT". In their minds they aren't gunners etc. but I promise you that a huge percentage of the kids at these top schools work as hard as xeoh. Even at the so called "laid back" UVA they're working like this.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby Stringer6 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:28 am

While I would say that I was probably one of the hardest workers, it was not by a large margin. I would say that maybe 20% of the class about matched my workload in terms of total study hours. Since many people worked from home, I can never be 100% sure.


he said he worked harder than at least 80% of his class. i'm not sure if he means that the other 80% weren't far behind, but that wasn't the impression i got.

Believe the tls mantra about most people not working that hard if you want to.


trust me, i don't believe in ANY tls mantra, about this or anything else. i was just reading what he wrote.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BobSacamano » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:24 pm

How in the world would anybody know how hard they worked relative to other students? That's completely conjecture.

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BruceWayne
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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:10 am

BobSacamano wrote:How in the world would anybody know how hard they worked relative to other students? That's completely conjecture.


Are you in law school? It's actually pretty obvious considering how many people study in the library not to mention seeing things like 100 page made from scratch outlines.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby weee » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:23 am

BruceWayne wrote:
BobSacamano wrote:How in the world would anybody know how hard they worked relative to other students? That's completely conjecture.


Are you in law school? It's actually pretty obvious considering how many people study in the library not to mention seeing things like 100 page made from scratch outlines.


You're right, if they ended up w/ a 100 page outline they clearly didn't work very hard because they didn't even bother to digest and think about the material so they could condense it down into something useful.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BobSacamano » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:41 am

BruceWayne wrote:Are you in law school? It's actually pretty obvious considering how many people study in the library not to mention seeing things like 100 page made from scratch outlines.

Yes, I'm a 2L. I work very hard and I barely ever step in the library and never say a word in class. Only a few of my friends see my outlines (if I make them). I do all my work at home, especially on the weekends. By all appearances I probably don't work very hard, but I assure you that I do. Some people, like myself, see no need to brag about the amount of effort they put in to their work.

It's asinine to think you can slap some sort of percentage on how much you work relative to other students. Whatever number you come up with will not mirror reality. It'll probably mirror your own hopes ("Man, I work so hard!") and fears ("So many people in the library! Must work harder!").

edit: Don't take this as criticism of xeoh. He's done some yeoman's work putting together his guide, which contains a good bit of useful advice.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby cornellbeez » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:57 am

BruceWayne wrote: One thing that I've got to say that is a bit ugh about UVA is that a lot of people do this: they act like people who study like mad are crazy for doing it, when A LOT of people at UVA study like this. I hate to make a jab at my school but that's one thing that I don't like about UVA. People act like we are the laid back school of the top 14 and that we are "not like those kids at Chicago" etc. Plenty of people here go HARD. They just go hard and then turn around and say they were at a keg or something when you ask them about it.

Frankly to any 0ls reading this thread, xeoh's work ethic is only a little bit above the average student at many of these top schools. Actually if you read the guy's post even he says that he was only barely above in terms of intensity compared to the other students at UCLA.


There are gunners at all the top schools, but I'm going to have to disagree that his work ethic is only "a little bit above the average" for these schools. I go to another MVP, and from what I have gathered, the average student does not study nearly as much as this. Most people I know in the top half did not study nearly as much as xeoh, if even a quarter as much. Some people end up median and above just by using a really good outline from a previous student.

People who consistently get As work really hard, but the "average student" (a 3.2/3.3 student after 1L year) does not put in "just a little bit less work" than xeoh. They probably put in far less work. That's why someone who puts in xeoh amount of hours will more likely than not get all As. Law school grades are largely a product of hard work.

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Doritos
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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby Doritos » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:31 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
BobSacamano wrote:How in the world would anybody know how hard they worked relative to other students? That's completely conjecture.


Are you in law school? It's actually pretty obvious considering how many people study in the library not to mention seeing things like 100 page made from scratch outlines.


I dunno man I may tend to agree with Bob. I see a lot of facebook and TLS going on in the library (I am writing this at the library actually). It's hard to tell how hard one works. I have seen an 80 page outline which was essentially a note dump that homie did in 2 days. Mine was a 1/3 as long and I put a lot more time and thought into mine so length does not equal how hard someone works. There were plenty of people in my section who just started outlining maybe 1.5 weeks out from finals...so to make a blanket statement about how hard people work (especially at UVa where we have what like 360 people in the 1L class) is going to be problematic. People generally work hard in law school but xeoh85 is definitely near the top of the heap at least in my limited experience. Moral of the story...do what works for you

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:18 pm

Doritos wrote:I dunno man I may tend to agree with Bob. I see a lot of facebook and TLS going on in the library (I am writing this at the library actually). It's hard to tell how hard one works. I have seen an 80 page outline which was essentially a note dump that homie did in 2 days. Mine was a 1/3 as long and I put a lot more time and thought into mine so length does not equal how hard someone works. There were plenty of people in my section who just started outlining maybe 1.5 weeks out from finals...so to make a blanket statement about how hard people work (especially at UVa where we have what like 360 people in the 1L class) is going to be problematic. People generally work hard in law school but xeoh85 is definitely near the top of the heap at least in my limited experience. Moral of the story...do what works for you


I'll admit that my section is a bit worse than average (I've noticed this recently, and some people have pointed it out to me) but I think you are seriously underestimating people. They may say that they're doing this and that but when you consistently see the same people in the library at 8am and then see them in the exact same spot when you leave campus at 6pm, something isn't adding up.


cornellbeez wrote:There are gunners at all the top schools, but I'm going to have to disagree that his work ethic is only "a little bit above the average" for these schools. I go to another MVP, and from what I have gathered, the average student does not study nearly as much as this. Most people I know in the top half did not study nearly as much as xeoh, if even a quarter as much. Some people end up median and above just by using a really good outline from a previous student.

People who consistently get As work really hard, but the "average student" (a 3.2/3.3 student after 1L year) does not put in "just a little bit less work" than xeoh. They probably put in far less work. That's why someone who puts in xeoh amount of hours will more likely than not get all As. Law school grades are largely a product of hard work.
BruceWayne wrote: One thing that I've got to say that is a bit ugh about UVA is that a lot of people do this: they act like people who study like mad are crazy for doing it, when A LOT of people at UVA study like this. I hate to make a jab at my school but that's one thing that I don't like about UVA. People act like we are the laid back school of the top 14 and that we are "not like those kids at Chicago" etc. Plenty of people here go HARD. They just go hard and then turn around and say they were at a keg or something when you ask them about it.

Frankly to any 0ls reading this thread, xeoh's work ethic is only a little bit above the average student at many of these top schools. Actually if you read the guy's post even he says that he was only barely above in terms of intensity compared to the other students at UCLA.


There are gunners at all the top schools, but I'm going to have to disagree that his work ethic is only "a little bit above the average" for these schools. I go to another MVP, and from what I have gathered, the average student does not study nearly as much as this. Most people I know in the top half did not study nearly as much as xeoh, if even a quarter as much. Some people end up median and above just by using a really good outline from a previous student.

People who consistently get As work really hard, but the "average student" (a 3.2/3.3 student after 1L year) does not put in "just a little bit less work" than xeoh. They probably put in far less work. That's why someone who puts in xeoh amount of hours will more likely than not get all As. Law school grades are largely a product of hard work.


I strongly disagree with this. Too much of your grade on a law school exam is based on an individual professor's tastes, you getting one of the topics that you understood better than the others given during a semester, typing speed, and a professor's propensity to manage the curve in a certain way ( ie one professor who goes for a 3.3 mean by giving out a ton of B+s and no A's v. a professor who gives out A+s and C's). I know people who worked very very hard (xeoh hard) and didn't get a single A or even A-. Law school grading is just too subjective and idiosyncratic (I'm not saying it's totally subjective but it's more subjective than any other academic field) for hard work to be the determining factor. Being in one section vs. being in another can mean the difference between a 3.2 and a 3.6.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby cornellbeez » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:43 am

BruceWayne wrote:I strongly disagree with this. Too much of your grade on a law school exam is based on an individual professor's tastes, you getting one of the topics that you understood better than the others given during a semester, typing speed, and a professor's propensity to manage the curve in a certain way ( ie one professor who goes for a 3.3 mean by giving out a ton of B+s and no A's v. a professor who gives out A+s and C's). I know people who worked very very hard (xeoh hard) and didn't get a single A or even A-. Law school grading is just too subjective and idiosyncratic (I'm not saying it's totally subjective but it's more subjective than any other academic field) for hard work to be the determining factor. Being in one section vs. being in another can mean the difference between a 3.2 and a 3.6.


The top students consistently get As regardless of the prof or the class. Doesn't seem like it's that arbitrary. Maybe some people are just legitimately better test-takers.

Don't your profs have a curve to follow? At M, our profs have rough curve guidelines to follow. If it's a curved class, they have to give around 9-10% straight As +/- 2-3% or something like that.

I don't understand how people who worked xeoh hard didn't get a single A or A-... really? They must waste a lot of time studying inefficiently or something...

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:01 am

cornellbeez wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I strongly disagree with this. Too much of your grade on a law school exam is based on an individual professor's tastes, you getting one of the topics that you understood better than the others given during a semester, typing speed, and a professor's propensity to manage the curve in a certain way ( ie one professor who goes for a 3.3 mean by giving out a ton of B+s and no A's v. a professor who gives out A+s and C's). I know people who worked very very hard (xeoh hard) and didn't get a single A or even A-. Law school grading is just too subjective and idiosyncratic (I'm not saying it's totally subjective but it's more subjective than any other academic field) for hard work to be the determining factor. Being in one section vs. being in another can mean the difference between a 3.2 and a 3.6.


The top students consistently get As regardless of the prof or the class. Doesn't seem like it's that arbitrary. Maybe some people are just legitimately better test-takers.

Don't your profs have a curve to follow? At M, our profs have rough curve guidelines to follow. If it's a curved class, they have to give around 9-10% straight As +/- 2-3% or something like that.

I don't understand how people who worked xeoh hard didn't get a single A or A-... really? They must waste a lot of time studying inefficiently or something...


You're missing the connection between the bolded section of your post. Doing well on exams has more to do with being good at taking law school exams than it does time studied; studying a lot isn't going to suddenly make you better at taking law school exams. The information that you are applying isn't complex enough for studying intensely to give you an advantage over someone else. It's going to come down to who has a knack for taking law exams once you pass a certain studying threshold.

At UVA professors can give out whatever grade they want, and as many as they want, as long as they are able to keep the class to a 3. 3 mean. So a professor can give some D's as long as he balances that out with enough A+s A's etc. to keep the overall mean to a 3.3. This probably leads to one's section assignment being too determinative of what their 1L GPA is at UVA.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby cornellbeez » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:27 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
cornellbeez wrote: The top students consistently get As regardless of the prof or the class. Doesn't seem like it's that arbitrary. Maybe some people are just legitimately better test-takers.

Don't your profs have a curve to follow? At M, our profs have rough curve guidelines to follow. If it's a curved class, they have to give around 9-10% straight As +/- 2-3% or something like that.

I don't understand how people who worked xeoh hard didn't get a single A or A-... really? They must waste a lot of time studying inefficiently or something...


You're missing the connection between the bolded section of your post. Doing well on exams has more to do with being good at taking law school exams than it does time studied; studying a lot isn't going to suddenly make you better at taking law school exams. The information that you are applying isn't complex enough for studying intensely to give you an advantage over someone else. It's going to come down to who has a knack for taking law exams once you pass a certain studying threshold.

At UVA professors can give out whatever grade they want, and as many as they want, as long as they are able to keep the class to a 3. 3 mean. So a professor can give some D's as long as he balances that out with enough A+s A's etc. to keep the overall mean to a 3.3. This probably leads to one's section assignment being too determinative of what their 1L GPA is at UVA.


You could insert an "or" before the first bolded sentence, and I meant to suggest something else with the ellipses in the second bolded sentence. In other words, given similar natural intellectual ability -- which I would expect from people with similar LSAT scores, but who knows -- the more you study, the better you should do. Also, that curving method sounds stupid and gives professors far too much power.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:55 pm

cornellbeez wrote:You could insert an "or" before the first bolded sentence, and I meant to suggest something else with the ellipses in the second bolded sentence. In other words, given similar natural intellectual ability -- which I would expect from people with similar LSAT scores, but who knows -- the more you study, the better you should do. Also, that curving method sounds stupid and gives professors far too much power.


I agree. To a point where I would probably factor that into my decision if I were choosing between UVA and its peers.

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby northwood » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:07 pm

with all of this tagging going on- freeze tag tourney shall be played in this thread ( pereira6 will be it first)

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby holeinone600 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:20 pm

just came across this thread...according to the OP's schedule, when can i plan to get in some rounds of golf? (answer = never)

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Re: xeoh85's Advice for Doing Well in Law School

Postby 071816 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:10 pm

It looks like the way he broke down his material in onenote was by semester (notebook), class (section groups), and outline/brief/notes (sections). Can anyone verify that this is correct?

I've been fiddling around with onenote and this seems like a pretty good way to organize things. I'm looking for the simplest and most efficient way possible.




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