extra time on exams for disabilities

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A'nold
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby A'nold » Thu May 13, 2010 3:45 pm

SamSeaborn2016 wrote:
A'nold wrote:Wait, so there are law firms that hire disabled people specifically? Links?



A'nold. I don't think there are firms specifically looking for disabled people but there seems to be a greater awareness in the legal field to recognize and hire capable lawyers who may be disabled.

The impact career fair might be a good starting point. The 2009 list of participating employers has a number of BigLaw firms as well as some smaller ones and government offices.

--LinkRemoved--


I wonder what the odds are of landing a job at this fair if you have a pretty big disability AND you have top grades. I can't believe some of the names I see on there.

hubtubrub
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 13, 2010 5:03 pm

A'nold wrote:
SamSeaborn2016 wrote:
A'nold wrote:Wait, so there are law firms that hire disabled people specifically? Links?



A'nold. I don't think there are firms specifically looking for disabled people but there seems to be a greater awareness in the legal field to recognize and hire capable lawyers who may be disabled.

The impact career fair might be a good starting point. The 2009 list of participating employers has a number of BigLaw firms as well as some smaller ones and government offices.

--LinkRemoved--


I wonder what the odds are of landing a job at this fair if you have a pretty big disability AND you have top grades. I can't believe some of the names I see on there.



Very high I'm guessing? But most people who have a disability (i'm guessing) don't do really well on law school exams because of "extra time." These people need accomodations to just get by average... and getting accomodations (by the way some people have described it on this thread) is REALLLY HARD.

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SamSeaborn2016
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:15 pm

A'nold wrote:
SamSeaborn2016 wrote:
A'nold wrote:Wait, so there are law firms that hire disabled people specifically? Links?



A'nold. I don't think there are firms specifically looking for disabled people but there seems to be a greater awareness in the legal field to recognize and hire capable lawyers who may be disabled.

The impact career fair might be a good starting point. The 2009 list of participating employers has a number of BigLaw firms as well as some smaller ones and government offices.

--LinkRemoved--


I wonder what the odds are of landing a job at this fair if you have a pretty big disability AND you have top grades. I can't believe some of the names I see on there.


I'm really curious myself. I don't have any anecdotal evidence or numbers showing how jobs shake out. It is important to note that it is for law students AND practicing lawyers so that could make a huge difference. I may make some inquiries with the coordinators of the events to see if they have hiring numbers from previous years.

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SamSeaborn2016
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:16 pm

hubtubrub wrote:
A'nold wrote:
SamSeaborn2016 wrote:
A'nold wrote:Wait, so there are law firms that hire disabled people specifically? Links?



A'nold. I don't think there are firms specifically looking for disabled people but there seems to be a greater awareness in the legal field to recognize and hire capable lawyers who may be disabled.

The impact career fair might be a good starting point. The 2009 list of participating employers has a number of BigLaw firms as well as some smaller ones and government offices.

--LinkRemoved--


I wonder what the odds are of landing a job at this fair if you have a pretty big disability AND you have top grades. I can't believe some of the names I see on there.



Very high I'm guessing? But most people who have a disability (i'm guessing) don't do really well on law school exams because of "extra time." These people need accomodations to just get by average... and getting accomodations (by the way some people have described it on this thread) is REALLLY HARD.


I suspect you are right regarding the prospects. If someone has the grades that would make them a competitive hire for those firms AND they can help the firm be more diverse, it could be a definite win-win for the firms.

I would disagree, though, with the assumption that those with disabilities aren't going to get score highly on exams. While I can't speak to cognitive disabilities, I don't think my mobility issues are going to have a drastic effect on my ability to take exams.

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A'nold
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby A'nold » Thu May 13, 2010 6:08 pm

hubtubrub wrote:
A'nold wrote:
SamSeaborn2016 wrote:
A'nold wrote:
A'nold. I don't think there are firms specifically looking for disabled people but there seems to be a greater awareness in the legal field to recognize and hire capable lawyers who may be disabled.

The impact career fair might be a good starting point. The 2009 list of participating employers has a number of BigLaw firms as well as some smaller ones and government offices.

--LinkRemoved--


I wonder what the odds are of landing a job at this fair if you have a pretty big disability AND you have top grades. I can't believe some of the names I see on there.



Very high I'm guessing? But most people who have a disability (i'm guessing) don't do really well on law school exams because of "extra time." These people need accomodations to just get by average... and getting accomodations (by the way some people have described it on this thread) is REALLLY HARD.


I suspect you are right regarding the prospects. If someone has the grades that would make them a competitive hire for those firms AND they can help the firm be more diverse, it could be a definite win-win for the firms.

I would disagree, though, with the assumption that those with disabilities aren't going to get score highly on exams. While I can't speak to cognitive disabilities, I don't think my mobility issues are going to have a drastic effect on my ability to take exams.


Credited. Accomodations are supposed to equal the playing field, not bring the disabled person up to "passing" level. It is supposed to make it like everyone has 3 hours according to their own capabilities. Then it all comes down to whoever writes the better exam.

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Andreeai
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby Andreeai » Thu May 13, 2010 6:54 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:If y'all want something to bitch about: ESL students also get extra time in some instances.

GO!


I am a 0L so I can't speak of how it is during law school, but for undergrad, grad or LSAT, ESLs DO NOT get extra time, or any kind of accomodation for that matter

hubtubrub
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 13, 2010 7:03 pm

Andreeai wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:If y'all want something to bitch about: ESL students also get extra time in some instances.

GO!


I am a 0L so I can't speak of how it is during law school, but for undergrad, grad or LSAT, ESLs DO NOT get extra time, or any kind of accomodation for that matter


how do you REALLY know?

hubtubrub
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 13, 2010 7:05 pm

A'nold wrote:I would disagree, though, with the assumption that those with disabilities aren't going to get score highly on exams. While I can't speak to cognitive disabilities, I don't think my mobility issues are going to have a drastic effect on my ability to take exams.


Credited. Accomodations are supposed to equal the playing field, not bring the disabled person up to "passing" level. It is supposed to make it like everyone has 3 hours according to their own capabilities. Then it all comes down to whoever writes the better exam.[/quote]

that's what I meant.

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Andreeai
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby Andreeai » Thu May 13, 2010 7:44 pm

hubtubrub wrote:
Andreeai wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:If y'all want something to bitch about: ESL students also get extra time in some instances.

GO!


I am a 0L so I can't speak of how it is during law school, but for undergrad, grad or LSAT, ESLs DO NOT get extra time, or any kind of accomodation for that matter


how do you REALLY know?


Maybe because I am an ESL :roll:

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A'nold
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby A'nold » Thu May 13, 2010 8:07 pm

List of employers from '09:

IMPACT Career Fair – 2009 Employer Participants
EMPLOYER LOCATION
Bingham McCutchen
Washington, DC
Comptroller of the Currency
Washington, DC
Debevoise & Plimpton, LLP
New York, NY
Dewey & LeBouef, LLP
New York, NY
Dickstein Shapiro, LLP
Washington, DC
Disability Rights North Carolina
Raleigh, NC
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Enforcement
Washington, DC
Federal Election Commission
Washington, DC
Federal Trade Commission – Bureau of Competition
Washington, DC
Federal Trade Commission – Bureau of Consumer Protection
Washington, DC
Fried Frank Harris Shirver & Jacobson, LLP
New York, NY
Husch Blackwell Sanders, LLP
St. Louis, MO
Internal Revenue Service, Office of Chief Counsel
Washington, DC
Mayer Brown LLP
Washington, DC
New York Lawyers for the Public Interest
New York, NY
Patton Boggs LLP
Washington, DC
Perkins Coie LLP
Menlo Park, CA
Quarles & Brady, LLP
Phoenix, AZ
Reed Smith LLP
Washington, DC
San Diego County Office of the Public Defender
San Diego, CA
Skadden Arps
Washington, DC
Social Security Administration, Office of General Counsel
Woodlawn, MD
U.S. Court of Appeals, 2nd Circuit
New York, NY
U.S. Dept. of Justice, Office of Attorney Recruitment & Management
Washington, DC
U.S. Dept. of Justice, Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys
Washington, DC
U.S. Dept. of Housing & Urban Development
Washington, DC
U.S. Dept. of Labor, Office of Admin. Law Judges
Washington, DC
U.S. Dept. of Labor, Employee Benefits Security Admin.
Washington, DC
U.S. Dept. of Labor, Office of the Solicitor
Washington, DC
U.S. Dept. of the Navy, Office of General Counsel
Washington, DC
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region 9
San Francisco, CA
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Office of Legal Counsel
Washington, DC
University Legal Services
Washington, DC
Wiley Rein LLP
Washington, DC
Weil Gotshal & Manges LLP
New York, NY
Wiley Rein LLP
Washington, DC

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wiseowl
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby wiseowl » Thu May 13, 2010 8:27 pm

Back to an old point that jks made, I don't think anyone denies that those who need accomodations should get it. However, it's the "demonstrated and legitimate" part that I think some people have a problem with. ADD is over-diagnosed and overhyped in this country. In my opinion, you should get a choice: Adderall or extra time. Either taken alone levels the playing field. Both is an unfair advantage.

As mentioned, what does this really accomplish in the end? Courts and law firms do not give accomodations.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Thu May 13, 2010 9:24 pm

wiseowl wrote:Back to an old point that jks made, I don't think anyone denies that those who need accomodations should get it. However, it's the "demonstrated and legitimate" part that I think some people have a problem with. ADD is over-diagnosed and overhyped in this country. In my opinion, you should get a choice: Adderall or extra time. Either taken alone levels the playing field. Both is an unfair advantage.


I agree on the need for credible documentation. Giving accommodations to the undeserving only stokes the fires of discrimination.

Your "Adderall or extra time" standard is highly over simplified. Certainly, if Adderall really levels the playing field, then they shouldn't get extra time. However, that's a huge and entirely unsubstantiated if. Disabilities affect different people differently. There is no way in hell Adderall completely levels the playing field for every person with ADD.

As mentioned, what does this really accomplish in the end? Courts and law firms do not give accomodations.

As mentioned, firms, judges, government agencies, and businesses are bound by the law just like law schools. Also the ABA has been telling them to make accommodations for years.

hubtubrub
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 13, 2010 9:28 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
wiseowl wrote:Back to an old point that jks made, I don't think anyone denies that those who need accomodations should get it. However, it's the "demonstrated and legitimate" part that I think some people have a problem with. ADD is over-diagnosed and overhyped in this country. In my opinion, you should get a choice: Adderall or extra time. Either taken alone levels the playing field. Both is an unfair advantage.


I agree on the need for credible documentation. Giving accommodations to the undeserving only stokes the fires of discrimination.

Your "Adderall or extra time" standard is highly over simplified. Certainly, if Adderall really levels the playing field, then they shouldn't get extra time. However, that's a huge and entirely unsubstantiated if. Disabilities affect different people differently. There is no way in hell Adderall completely levels the playing field for every person with ADD.

As mentioned, what does this really accomplish in the end? Courts and law firms do not give accomodations.

As mentioned, firms, judges, government agencies, and businesses are bound by the law just like law schools. Also the ABA has been telling them to make accommodations for years.


wait... law firms give accomodations?

hubtubrub
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 13, 2010 9:28 pm

Andreeai wrote:
hubtubrub wrote:
Andreeai wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:If y'all want something to bitch about: ESL students also get extra time in some instances.

GO!


I am a 0L so I can't speak of how it is during law school, but for undergrad, grad or LSAT, ESLs DO NOT get extra time, or any kind of accomodation for that matter


how do you REALLY know?


Maybe because I am an ESL :roll:


hahaha... sorry :P

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Thu May 13, 2010 9:34 pm

hubtubrub wrote:
Andreeai wrote:
hubtubrub wrote:
Andreeai wrote:
I am a 0L so I can't speak of how it is during law school, but for undergrad, grad or LSAT, ESLs DO NOT get extra time, or any kind of accomodation for that matter


how do you REALLY know?


Maybe because I am an ESL :roll:


hahaha... sorry :P

On the form I fill out every semester at law school, there is a box for ESL.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Thu May 13, 2010 9:36 pm

hubtubrub wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:
wiseowl wrote:Back to an old point that jks made, I don't think anyone denies that those who need accomodations should get it. However, it's the "demonstrated and legitimate" part that I think some people have a problem with. ADD is over-diagnosed and overhyped in this country. In my opinion, you should get a choice: Adderall or extra time. Either taken alone levels the playing field. Both is an unfair advantage.


I agree on the need for credible documentation. Giving accommodations to the undeserving only stokes the fires of discrimination.

Your "Adderall or extra time" standard is highly over simplified. Certainly, if Adderall really levels the playing field, then they shouldn't get extra time. However, that's a huge and entirely unsubstantiated if. Disabilities affect different people differently. There is no way in hell Adderall completely levels the playing field for every person with ADD.

As mentioned, what does this really accomplish in the end? Courts and law firms do not give accomodations.

As mentioned, firms, judges, government agencies, and businesses are bound by the law just like law schools. Also the ABA has been telling them to make accommodations for years.


wait... law firms give accomodations?

Under the ADA, they cannot discriminate in hiring or in retention because someone needs accommodations.

holborn
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby holborn » Thu May 13, 2010 9:47 pm

icydash wrote:
stinger35 wrote:I 100% agree with you. As someone who has CALI'd several classes in normal time, an extra 1.5 hours, I guarantee a cali on 90% of my exams.

what is CALI?

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wiseowl
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby wiseowl » Thu May 13, 2010 10:04 pm

julesm2200 wrote:
icydash wrote:
stinger35 wrote:I 100% agree with you. As someone who has CALI'd several classes in normal time, an extra 1.5 hours, I guarantee a cali on 90% of my exams.

what is CALI?


highest grade in the class

hubtubrub
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby hubtubrub » Thu May 13, 2010 10:15 pm

wiseowl wrote:
julesm2200 wrote:
icydash wrote:
stinger35 wrote:I 100% agree with you. As someone who has CALI'd several classes in normal time, an extra 1.5 hours, I guarantee a cali on 90% of my exams.

what is CALI?


highest grade in the class


hmmmmm.... that's isn't a really good example is it? Maybe people are not as smart as you to cali at all (even in normal time). It says nothing about anyone else who may be disabled...

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rbgrocio
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby rbgrocio » Thu May 13, 2010 10:18 pm

I do not agree with it. We are going to law school to become lawyers, to become professionals. What are you going to do when a client comes in 5 days before the Statute of Limitations runs out? Ask another associate to do the job for you? We live in a world of time constraints, and this is a profession with such constraints. If one can't deal with it, then one should not sign up for it. I know lots of you are going to disagree, but if I'm fat I can't be a model; if I can't speak English, I should not go to college in the U.S. I understand that you can change your weight and that you can learn the language, but the case with ADD just pisses me off. You can take the appropriate medicine for it, and that should allow you to work just fine.

I would like to clarify that this rant refers ONLY to the case of ADD. And I know a 0L here mentioned that what is 1.5 hours more going to do to you? that actually made me laugh. Yes, in law school you need to know your stuff, but when someone makes you write five essays (very long ones) and you also have to do multiple choice and raise about 15 issues (joinder, SMJ, PJ, Erie, venue....) 1.5 hours can go a long way for you.

Baylan
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby Baylan » Fri May 14, 2010 12:19 am

rbgrocio wrote:I do not agree with it. We are going to law school to become lawyers, to become professionals. What are you going to do when a client comes in 5 days before the Statute of Limitations runs out? Ask another associate to do the job for you? We live in a world of time constraints, and this is a profession with such constraints. If one can't deal with it, then one should not sign up for it. I know lots of you are going to disagree, but if I'm fat I can't be a model; if I can't speak English, I should not go to college in the U.S. I understand that you can change your weight and that you can learn the language, but the case with ADD just pisses me off. You can take the appropriate medicine for it, and that should allow you to work just fine.

I would like to clarify that this rant refers ONLY to the case of ADD. And I know a 0L here mentioned that what is 1.5 hours more going to do to you? that actually made me laugh. Yes, in law school you need to know your stuff, but when someone makes you write five essays (very long ones) and you also have to do multiple choice and raise about 15 issues (joinder, SMJ, PJ, Erie, venue....) 1.5 hours can go a long way for you.


I'm going to jump on this wagon here. There are many disabilities where you might be able to quantifiably adjust the amount of time one has, or create accommodations which will level the playing field, but I believe that it is doing a disservice to those that are given the accommodations. How can they be expected to perform on the same level as any other student if they have a different set of rules? The real world is far from fair, and in all honesty, how is it perfectly equitable for two separate sets of rules to exist?

I am honestly sick and tired of government attempting to create equality for people with different talents, abilities, and work ethic. One must perform to the best of their abilities and find their own way in the world.

I am also in favor of equal benchmarks between men and women in professions that have physical components. I don't understand why firefighters, police officers, and other professions which have a physical component would hire and allow for what would be a "substandard" employee, because of being a different gender.

I know this sounds harsh to those with disabilities, but in the same vein, if you don't have legs, you can't be a fireman. Why go into a profession that involves lots of high level reading, quickly, and writing, quickly, if you can't do the work at the same level as everyone else?

And so you don't all hate me, some of the inspiration from this is coming from a man much greater than I, Martin Luther King Jr.

"If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

blzrchick2
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby blzrchick2 » Fri May 14, 2010 1:34 am

Here's my short take from my experiences at my school. A select few people at my school caused issues with the extra time thing, one in particular, who was already at the top of her class and got extra time for some anxiety related "test-taking" problem (seemed very sketchy to me). She didn't need the time, she'd have done fine anyway (based on where she was ranked already and the many conversations I'd had with her). But she wanted As and wanted to transfer (she constantly told everyone that was her only goal). Word got around that she was doing this and there was a lot of irritation. For me that comes from, and from what others on this thread have said, the fact that everyone has something they could get extra time for in order to beat the system but would rather do it the same as everyone else. ADD, Anxiety, Depression, you name it. It's the idea of using that NOT to make a level playing field but instead to propel yourself to the very top that is obnoxious.

I do have to say that I have no problem at all with someone with legitimate medical issues getting extra time. It's not someone getting extra time that bugs me and others, it's that they are trying to get it specifically for the purpose to get ahead, to the very top. This whole thing was an issue my first year, people would count who was in their exam room and realize how many people were taking it separately and had gotten extra time.

Anyway, my two cents! I say if you're using it to help yourself get ahead to the top of the class, then ditch it and come down into the trenches and battle it out with the rest of us who all have ridiculous things about us too making it hard to study or whatever else. I told my buddy at school once, who's married with 2 kids, that if someone can get extra time for ADD maybe he should get it for all the time his kids and wife take from his studies. Obviously thats extreme and not serious, but its the same idea...we all have something keeping us from acing an exam. Now if you need extra time just to feel like you can survive in the test, then your issue is bad enough you should use the free time....feel free without judgment.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 am

Baylan wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:I do not agree with it. We are going to law school to become lawyers, to become professionals. What are you going to do when a client comes in 5 days before the Statute of Limitations runs out? Ask another associate to do the job for you? We live in a world of time constraints, and this is a profession with such constraints. If one can't deal with it, then one should not sign up for it. I know lots of you are going to disagree, but if I'm fat I can't be a model; if I can't speak English, I should not go to college in the U.S. I understand that you can change your weight and that you can learn the language, but the case with ADD just pisses me off. You can take the appropriate medicine for it, and that should allow you to work just fine.

I would like to clarify that this rant refers ONLY to the case of ADD. And I know a 0L here mentioned that what is 1.5 hours more going to do to you? that actually made me laugh. Yes, in law school you need to know your stuff, but when someone makes you write five essays (very long ones) and you also have to do multiple choice and raise about 15 issues (joinder, SMJ, PJ, Erie, venue....) 1.5 hours can go a long way for you.


I'm going to jump on this wagon here. There are many disabilities where you might be able to quantifiably adjust the amount of time one has, or create accommodations which will level the playing field, but I believe that it is doing a disservice to those that are given the accommodations. How can they be expected to perform on the same level as any other student if they have a different set of rules? The real world is far from fair, and in all honesty, how is it perfectly equitable for two separate sets of rules to exist?

I am honestly sick and tired of government attempting to create equality for people with different talents, abilities, and work ethic. One must perform to the best of their abilities and find their own way in the world.

I am also in favor of equal benchmarks between men and women in professions that have physical components. I don't understand why firefighters, police officers, and other professions which have a physical component would hire and allow for what would be a "substandard" employee, because of being a different gender.

I know this sounds harsh to those with disabilities, but in the same vein, if you don't have legs, you can't be a fireman. Why go into a profession that involves lots of high level reading, quickly, and writing, quickly, if you can't do the work at the same level as everyone else?

And so you don't all hate me, some of the inspiration from this is coming from a man much greater than I, Martin Luther King Jr.

"If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

No one is saying that you should be able to be a lawyer if you don't have a brain. We're not asking for the government to be the Wizard of Oz. There is a reason that it's called reasonable accommodations. It isn't that there are two standards, but that the standard is inaccurate. Grades from race horse examinations don't measure our ability to be lawyers. Exams are only a rough proxy for ability. Having a disability doesn't mean we were called to be street sweepers. Calling is about personality not ability, jack ass.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 1:54 am

If anyone really wants to probe the nether regions of this issue, see the Ethics article in the newest edition of the ABA Journal. It's on lawyers with Alzheimer's. Even I agree that people with Alzheimer's shouldn't be lawyers. Of course, the disease comes in stages. I' not sure what stage should be the cutoff but there should be a cutoff.

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pugalicious
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby pugalicious » Fri May 14, 2010 2:05 am

mikeytwoshoes wrote: Calling is about personality not ability, jack ass.


I sort of agree with everything else you said, but I really hope I never have, say, a heart surgeon who agrees with the above.




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