extra time on exams for disabilities

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 7:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
A'nold wrote:
No. What the hell would be an inherent disability to typing slowly? If someone is missing two fingers and has to type one handed, you bet your freaking ass that I would rather them have extra time.

There is no such thing as being disabled when it comes to typing. You can take a program. If not, maybe you just suck. That is not the case with disabilities. Horrible analogy.


I just have shitty eye hand coordination and frequently hit the wrong key.

Why is sucking at concentrating a disability and sucking at eye hand coordination just "sucking"?

This is just a red herring. Typing involves no hand-eye coordination. The whole point of typing fast is not to look at the keyboard.


Then I have poor finger control. Either way I massive suck at typing.
Is it due to some underlying physical condition, Mr. Rommel?

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LawLucy
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby LawLucy » Sat May 15, 2010 7:16 pm

It is sure as hell is not going to take away my goal (or dream) of going to law school.
Last edited by LawLucy on Wed May 19, 2010 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matthies
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby Matthies » Sat May 15, 2010 7:19 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Then I have poor finger control. Either way I massive suck at typing.


Luckily you only really need to hit 2 keys for dock review :P

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 7:23 pm

http://www.abanet.org/media/youraba/200 ... cle06.html
Best practices for working with lawyers with disabilities

“While the legal profession has shifted to greater recognition of the employment obstacles for traditional minorities, awareness is lacking in the area of disability,” said Prof. Carrie Griffin Basas. The University of Tulsa College of Law professor was one of the panelists presenting at the Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law’s second ABA National Conference on the Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities last month. “Disabilities are still equated with diminished professional abilities, rather than seeing disabilities as mere physical or mental impairments that could have no negative effects on individuals’ abilities to be lawyers.”

People with serious disabilities experience one of the highest rates of unemployment among minority groups. Yet, they can be assets to companies and can help reflect the greater diversity of society and of the customer bases of their employers, Basas said.

Panelist Walter J. Smith of Baker Botts LLP and a parent of a cognitively disabled son, recalled how his son’s first job at his law firm was a transformative experience for him, his son and his staff. The experience motivated Smith to hire more people with disabilities. “Professional service firms—law firms, accounting firms, consulting firms and the like—are ideal places to work for individuals with cognitive or physical disabilities. We have a safe and quiet environment that lends itself to training and mentoring. We have a relatively well-educated and caring workforce. But most importantly, we have important work that needs to get done that they can master. And as I often like to say, we’re not just helping them make a living, we’re helping them make a life.”

What were y'all sayin' about law firmz not giving accommodations?

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 7:27 pm

Three principles for employing lawyers with disabilities.

1. Address less-than-satisfactory performance. It is not helpful to coddle lawyers. Employers should assume that people with disabilities have the same chance at failing as those without disabilities. Many employers make the mistake of thinking of an employee’s disability as the cause for performance issues, when in reality he may need constructive criticism about a specific work habit.
2. Let past functioning be a predictor of future performance. Many new managers wrongly underestimate the capabilities of their staff with disabilities by failing to give the employees work on their proven skill level or, worse, refusing to assign them any work. Top management at law firms should put equal weight on past performance of both employees with disabilities and non-disabled employees.
3. The biggest factor in the retention and promotion of lawyers with disabilities is the availability of a good mentorship program within the firm.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 7:33 pm

LawLucy wrote:
SamSeaborn2016 wrote:
hubtubrub wrote:do you think there are a lot of people with disabilities at t14s?


Probably more than you think but still not enough to qualify as "a lot." I can only speak anecdotally but a significiant number of the disabled law students I know are within the t14. Also keep in mind that many disabilities aren't obvious to others and many students don't report their disability for various reasons.


True comment
I didn't report my injury/disability throughout my MBA, didn't need to, they put everyone at a level field to begin with. I should have requested accommodation for the GMAT, but I didn't and it hosed me. I have an LSAC accommodation to take the LSAT, but let me emphasize, extra time does not equal doing better. LSAC was a tough cookie to deal with, but after jumping through ALL their hoops and providing 1-inch thick docomentation, I got my approval letter in two days.
My neck was broken in a car accident and the C4 was removed. I literally have a titanium neck. It sucks to be so young and have had this happen, however, accommodation is there for a reason. I obviously cannot bend my neck down for long durations or sit for hours on end.
I am also concerned about how I will be viewed when applications are sent out. If I don't get a 170, will my app be tossed to the side by a T14? (very strong softs)
I am really no different than anyone else, I just cant snow/water ski anymore or do flips down a hallway and I tend to get tired more quickly.
It is sure as hell is not going to take away my goal (or dream) of going to law school.

My app was treated like any other student's in the good way and the bad way. I sure as hell got no bump. I did get merit aid I probably didn't deserve.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 7:33 pm

Matthies wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Then I have poor finger control. Either way I massive suck at typing.


Luckily you only really need to hit 2 keys for dock review :P

Which keys?

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LawLucy
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby LawLucy » Sat May 15, 2010 7:36 pm

.[/quote]
My app was treated like any other student's in the good way and the bad way. I sure as hell got no bump. I did get merit aid I probably didn't deserve.[/quote]

Reassuring to know. I may PM you with more questions

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Matthies
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby Matthies » Sat May 15, 2010 7:37 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
Matthies wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Then I have poor finger control. Either way I massive suck at typing.


Luckily you only really need to hit 2 keys for dock review :P

Which keys?


Y or N

09042014
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby 09042014 » Sat May 15, 2010 7:43 pm

Matthies wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Then I have poor finger control. Either way I massive suck at typing.


Luckily you only really need to hit 2 keys for dock review :P


Hahaha I feel better now.

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20160810
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby 20160810 » Sat May 15, 2010 7:57 pm

I deleted some of my trolls because I was bored and just being a bit of a dick, but I do stand by a suspicion ADD is overdiagnosed.

transferornot
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby transferornot » Sat May 15, 2010 8:02 pm

so I'm guessing disabled people get a hiring "bump" b/c of their disability at some firms like Patton?

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A'nold
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby A'nold » Sat May 15, 2010 8:19 pm

T14donewith1L wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
A'nold wrote:
No. What the hell would be an inherent disability to typing slowly? If someone is missing two fingers and has to type one handed, you bet your freaking ass that I would rather them have extra time.

There is no such thing as being disabled when it comes to typing. You can take a program. If not, maybe you just suck. That is not the case with disabilities. Horrible analogy.


I just have shitty eye hand coordination and frequently hit the wrong key.

Why is sucking at concentrating a disability and sucking at eye hand coordination just "sucking"?

This.

If you're so bad at focusing that you can't read a hypo and issue spot it in 3 hours like anyone else, then you're going to be a shitty attorney and should stop kidding yourself.


TITCR, if you think biglaw sweatshops are gonna cut you slack because you have trouble focusing, you are sorely mistaken. I know someone with a serious chronic Physical Illness who was forced to quit because he couldn't do the hours. Anyways, I like to think it really doesn't matter that these people get special accommodations and get better grades, because it will come back to haunt them when they aren't able to work as efficiently as fellow employees who earned their grades fairly.


That was one of the most idiotic things I've ever read on this board. See? I don't think you should get extra time for your idiocy, but I do think Mikey should get extra time because he is clearly smarter than you. I would be an injustice to allow your quicker reading ability to put you ahead of one that is obviously more mentally capable.

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Matthies
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby Matthies » Sat May 15, 2010 8:40 pm

SoftBoiledLife wrote:I deleted some of my trolls because I was bored and just being a bit of a dick, but I do stand by a suspicion ADD is overdiagnosed.


I don't think anyone would arguge that ADD is over dignosied. Although from what i have heard fewer and fewer general MDs are diganosiing it now and refering to people who specialize in the type of testing you need to determine just how bad your ADD is and if its just ADD or perhapse anouther leraning disablity or something else all together.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 9:00 pm

A'nold wrote:
T14donewith1L wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:This.

If you're so bad at focusing that you can't read a hypo and issue spot it in 3 hours like anyone else, then you're going to be a shitty attorney and should stop kidding yourself.


TITCR, if you think biglaw sweatshops are gonna cut you slack because you have trouble focusing, you are sorely mistaken. I know someone with a serious chronic Physical Illness who was forced to quit because he couldn't do the hours. Anyways, I like to think it really doesn't matter that these people get special accommodations and get better grades, because it will come back to haunt them when they aren't able to work as efficiently as fellow employees who earned their grades fairly.


That was one of the most idiotic things I've ever read on this board. See? I don't think you should get extra time for your idiocy, but I do think Mikey should get extra time because he is clearly smarter than you. I would be an injustice to allow your quicker reading ability to put you ahead of one that is obviously more mentally capable.

You're just sucking up now because you called Macempress' 'tar better than mine.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 9:11 pm

transferornot wrote:so I'm guessing disabled people get a hiring "bump" b/c of their disability at some firms like Patton?

I don't have any quantifiable data supporting that proposition. There might be a bump soon, though.

I think each firm will make its own decision on hiring lawyers with disabilities. Obviously, not even the ABA can force firms to hire lawyers with disabilities. Compounding this problem, discrimination can be really hard to prove for persons with disabilities. You would likely have to prove that you were as qualified, if not more qualified, than the person they hired. Also, qualification in the legal profession is subject to all sorts of prestige factors. Like me, lots of us don't go to T14s.

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wiseowl
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby wiseowl » Sat May 15, 2010 9:21 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:http://www.abanet.org/media/youraba/200907/article06.html
Best practices for working with lawyers with disabilities

“While the legal profession has shifted to greater recognition of the employment obstacles for traditional minorities, awareness is lacking in the area of disability,” said Prof. Carrie Griffin Basas. The University of Tulsa College of Law professor was one of the panelists presenting at the Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law’s second ABA National Conference on the Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities last month. “Disabilities are still equated with diminished professional abilities, rather than seeing disabilities as mere physical or mental impairments that could have no negative effects on individuals’ abilities to be lawyers.”

People with serious disabilities experience one of the highest rates of unemployment among minority groups. Yet, they can be assets to companies and can help reflect the greater diversity of society and of the customer bases of their employers, Basas said.

Panelist Walter J. Smith of Baker Botts LLP and a parent of a cognitively disabled son, recalled how his son’s first job at his law firm was a transformative experience for him, his son and his staff. The experience motivated Smith to hire more people with disabilities. “Professional service firms—law firms, accounting firms, consulting firms and the like—are ideal places to work for individuals with cognitive or physical disabilities. We have a safe and quiet environment that lends itself to training and mentoring. We have a relatively well-educated and caring workforce. But most importantly, we have important work that needs to get done that they can master. And as I often like to say, we’re not just helping them make a living, we’re helping them make a life.”

What were y'all sayin' about law firmz not giving accommodations?


Didn't you bite someone's head off a few pages back for saying one anecdote does not a trend make? *CHOMP* What goes around comes around.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 9:29 pm

wiseowl wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:http://www.abanet.org/media/youraba/200907/article06.html
Best practices for working with lawyers with disabilities

“While the legal profession has shifted to greater recognition of the employment obstacles for traditional minorities, awareness is lacking in the area of disability,” said Prof. Carrie Griffin Basas. The University of Tulsa College of Law professor was one of the panelists presenting at the Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law’s second ABA National Conference on the Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities last month. “Disabilities are still equated with diminished professional abilities, rather than seeing disabilities as mere physical or mental impairments that could have no negative effects on individuals’ abilities to be lawyers.”

People with serious disabilities experience one of the highest rates of unemployment among minority groups. Yet, they can be assets to companies and can help reflect the greater diversity of society and of the customer bases of their employers, Basas said.

Panelist Walter J. Smith of Baker Botts LLP and a parent of a cognitively disabled son, recalled how his son’s first job at his law firm was a transformative experience for him, his son and his staff. The experience motivated Smith to hire more people with disabilities. “Professional service firms—law firms, accounting firms, consulting firms and the like—are ideal places to work for individuals with cognitive or physical disabilities. We have a safe and quiet environment that lends itself to training and mentoring. We have a relatively well-educated and caring workforce. But most importantly, we have important work that needs to get done that they can master. And as I often like to say, we’re not just helping them make a living, we’re helping them make a life.”

What were y'all sayin' about law firmz not giving accommodations?


Didn't you bite someone's head off a few pages back for saying one anecdote does not a trend make? *CHOMP* What goes around comes around.

Trend:

Sponsorship from ABA’s 2nd Annual Conference on Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities
Platinum Donors
Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft LLP
Jenner & Block, LLP
Gold Donors
Jackson Lewis, LLP
LexisNexis®
Littler Mendelson,
P.C. Schiff Hardin, LLP
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, LLP
WalMart Stores, Inc.
Silver Donors
ABA Office of the President
Baker Botts, LLP
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher, LLP
Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP

But you're right; it's just an anecdote.

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wiseowl
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby wiseowl » Sat May 15, 2010 9:32 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
wiseowl wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:http://www.abanet.org/media/youraba/200907/article06.html
Best practices for working with lawyers with disabilities

“While the legal profession has shifted to greater recognition of the employment obstacles for traditional minorities, awareness is lacking in the area of disability,” said Prof. Carrie Griffin Basas. The University of Tulsa College of Law professor was one of the panelists presenting at the Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law’s second ABA National Conference on the Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities last month. “Disabilities are still equated with diminished professional abilities, rather than seeing disabilities as mere physical or mental impairments that could have no negative effects on individuals’ abilities to be lawyers.”

People with serious disabilities experience one of the highest rates of unemployment among minority groups. Yet, they can be assets to companies and can help reflect the greater diversity of society and of the customer bases of their employers, Basas said.

Panelist Walter J. Smith of Baker Botts LLP and a parent of a cognitively disabled son, recalled how his son’s first job at his law firm was a transformative experience for him, his son and his staff. The experience motivated Smith to hire more people with disabilities. “Professional service firms—law firms, accounting firms, consulting firms and the like—are ideal places to work for individuals with cognitive or physical disabilities. We have a safe and quiet environment that lends itself to training and mentoring. We have a relatively well-educated and caring workforce. But most importantly, we have important work that needs to get done that they can master. And as I often like to say, we’re not just helping them make a living, we’re helping them make a life.”

What were y'all sayin' about law firmz not giving accommodations?


Didn't you bite someone's head off a few pages back for saying one anecdote does not a trend make? *CHOMP* What goes around comes around.

Trend:

Sponsorship from ABA’s 2nd Annual Conference on Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities
Platinum Donors
Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft LLP
Jenner & Block, LLP
Gold Donors
Jackson Lewis, LLP
LexisNexis®
Littler Mendelson,
P.C. Schiff Hardin, LLP
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, LLP
WalMart Stores, Inc.
Silver Donors
ABA Office of the President
Baker Botts, LLP
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher, LLP
Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP

But you're right; it's just an anecdote.


Dude firms will sponsor a bathroom if you put their name and logo in the program. This doesn't equal "accomodations" and you know it.

honestabe84
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby honestabe84 » Sat May 15, 2010 10:31 pm

What if someone is a defense attorney? Are their clients required by the ADA to tolerate them missing deadlines, because they can't finish their work in time?
Last edited by honestabe84 on Sat May 15, 2010 10:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

transferornot
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby transferornot » Sat May 15, 2010 10:31 pm

ugh. but aren't firms supposed to give accomodations to b/c of the ADA act? Or is it that they can't fire you b/c of a disability?

transferornot
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby transferornot » Sat May 15, 2010 10:32 pm

honestabe84 wrote:What if someone is a defense attorney? Are their clients required by the ADA to tolerate them missing deadlines, because they can't finish your work in time?


i think there would be a way to balance it out

honestabe84
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby honestabe84 » Sat May 15, 2010 10:43 pm

transferornot wrote:ugh. but aren't firms supposed to give accomodations to b/c of the ADA act? Or is it that they can't fire you b/c of a disability?


I think they are just required to give 'reasonable' accommodations. For example, a construction company is not required to accommodate someone with cerebral palsy.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat May 15, 2010 11:11 pm

The thing about the ADD extra time accomodation is that it is made in a blanket sense. Officially, I have ADD. I haven't taken medications or gotten treatment for it for years and I no longer list it on things where I list disabilities. However, if I wanted to, I could very easily go through all the hoops of getting an extra 1.5 hours of time on my exams.

That would be so incredibly unfair. As it stands, I already write more than most people and score near the top of most classes. Given another 1.5 hours, I can say with near certainty that I would book pretty much every exam that doesn't have a word limit. In my case, the accomodation is far, far too generous.

Giving an extra 1.5 hours to everyone with ADD just doesn't make sense. It's far too much extra time for some people, and probably not enough for others. ADD simply doesn't effect everyone the same way.

Also, I realize it makes me a terrible person, but the argument isn't going to fly in a firm. It is not a "reasonable accomodation" if you have to bill a client for 6 hours of work for a task that would have taken a non-disabled person 4 hours. That is ignoring the obvious problem of time-intense projects, because I suppose you could figure out a way to avoid assigning "this needs to be done 5 minutes ago" work to people who have an "extra time" accomodation--but I think even that is pushing it.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 11:57 pm

honestabe84 wrote:What if someone is a defense attorney? Are their clients required by the ADA to tolerate them missing deadlines, because they can't finish their work in time?

I want to know what you edited out of this post.




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