extra time on exams for disabilities

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hubtubrub
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby hubtubrub » Fri May 14, 2010 4:13 pm

apper123 wrote:tbh I really have enjoyed reading the conversation and debate on this thread. It's an interesting topic, especially in today's world/legal industry. The post about what you need to go through to get accommodations with the LSAC was pretty eye-opening as well. Did not realize it was such an expensive (seemingly almost prohibitively so) and time-consuming process. I must say if these are the hoops people must jump through to get accommodations, then they do not bother me at all.


+1

getting accomodations seems really hard.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 7:02 pm

hubtubrub wrote:
apper123 wrote:tbh I really have enjoyed reading the conversation and debate on this thread. It's an interesting topic, especially in today's world/legal industry. The post about what you need to go through to get accommodations with the LSAC was pretty eye-opening as well. Did not realize it was such an expensive (seemingly almost prohibitively so) and time-consuming process. I must say if these are the hoops people must jump through to get accommodations, then they do not bother me at all.


+1

getting accomodations seems really hard.

+1

This is the best serious thread ever. See the 0L URM threads for useful comparison.

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SamSeaborn2016
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:07 pm

I'm pretty pleased this thread remained civil and serious. Disabilities don't get nearly enough discussion.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 7:15 pm

SamSeaborn2016 wrote:I'm pretty pleased this thread remained civil and serious. Disabilities don't get nearly enough discussion.

I called that one guy a jack ass. I did try to do it in a civil manner.

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SamSeaborn2016
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:18 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
SamSeaborn2016 wrote:I'm pretty pleased this thread remained civil and serious. Disabilities don't get nearly enough discussion.

I called that one guy a jack ass. I did try to do it in a civil manner.


Well, I guess I was speaking relative to the grenade tossing messes these threads can turn into. :lol:

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 7:23 pm

SamSeaborn2016 wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:
SamSeaborn2016 wrote:I'm pretty pleased this thread remained civil and serious. Disabilities don't get nearly enough discussion.

I called that one guy a jack ass. I did try to do it in a civil manner.


Well, I guess I was speaking relative to the grenade tossing messes these threads can turn into. :lol:

This thread would have gone differently in the admissions forum or, God forbid, the lounge.

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rbgrocio
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby rbgrocio » Fri May 14, 2010 7:47 pm

I was also surprised on how polite everyone has been. I was expecting a round of bashing for my opposition. But I'm glad we can all agree to disagree. I think it is true that if I were not graded on a curve I would think differently about this. Selfish, I know... but as I have mentioned before law school is about survival of the fittest.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 8:27 pm

rbgrocio wrote:I was also surprised on how polite everyone has been. I was expecting a round of bashing for my opposition. But I'm glad we can all agree to disagree. I think it is true that if I were not graded on a curve I would think differently about this. Selfish, I know... but as I have mentioned before law school is about survival of the fittest.

Earlier you qualified your opposition as only applying to ADD. Here you seem to have much more broad opposition. Am I misreading you?

2009 Prospective
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby 2009 Prospective » Fri May 14, 2010 9:43 pm

JPU wrote:Hey guys there has been a lot of discussion of this issue at my current school and I wanted to hear what the rest of the law school community had to say on the subject.

Basically, about 5% of the total class (1L, 2L, and 3L) get an extra 1.5 hours per exam because of various disabilities, mainly ADD. Some students seem to think that this is a major issue and inherently unfair, etc, etc but the school's response is that they are just complying with the Americans with Disabilities Act. The bar exam also allows for extra time for disabilities.

Personally, I am all for disadvantaged students getting an equal playing field, but I am apparently in an extreme minority on this. If I had a disability, I would 100% use it to get every advantage that I could and think that others should be given the same opportunity.

So TLS community, does this happen at your schools too and what is the student/faculty reaction to it?


Coming from someone that is writing down to the very last second on all my exams, 1.5 hours just seems extreme assuming it's a 4 hour exam. Also, where can the line of demarcation be drawn for someone that is disabled yet doesn't necessarily need 1.5 hours to "even the playing field?" Not only do you have to worry about intentional abuse of these accommodations but also those borderline students who think they need accommodations that really don't deserve them. I would be particularly nervous of those hypersensitive students who simply have test anxiety + some borderline disability being able to take advantage of this system. I think it's just too tough to draw the line in any fair way.

honestabe84
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby honestabe84 » Fri May 14, 2010 10:10 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Obviously ADD is real, but how is it any different than just not being intelligent? Both are likely a bad roll of the genetic dice. Why is having a hard time concentrate a disability but having a hard time grasping logic not? ADD is treatable, they should be held to the same standard.


Fox, there you go again with logic.

I think everyone with below average intelligence should also be accommodated. After all, they were born that way and can't do anything about it.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 10:26 pm

2009 Prospective wrote:
JPU wrote:Hey guys there has been a lot of discussion of this issue at my current school and I wanted to hear what the rest of the law school community had to say on the subject.

Basically, about 5% of the total class (1L, 2L, and 3L) get an extra 1.5 hours per exam because of various disabilities, mainly ADD. Some students seem to think that this is a major issue and inherently unfair, etc, etc but the school's response is that they are just complying with the Americans with Disabilities Act. The bar exam also allows for extra time for disabilities.

Personally, I am all for disadvantaged students getting an equal playing field, but I am apparently in an extreme minority on this. If I had a disability, I would 100% use it to get every advantage that I could and think that others should be given the same opportunity.

So TLS community, does this happen at your schools too and what is the student/faculty reaction to it?


Coming from someone that is writing down to the very last second on all my exams, 1.5 hours just seems extreme assuming it's a 4 hour exam. Also, where can the line of demarcation be drawn for someone that is disabled yet doesn't necessarily need 1.5 hours to "even the playing field?" Not only do you have to worry about intentional abuse of these accommodations but also those borderline students who think they need accommodations that really don't deserve them. I would be particularly nervous of those hypersensitive students who simply have test anxiety + some borderline disability being able to take advantage of this system. I think it's just too tough to draw the line in any fair way.

Your concerns were addressed earlier in this thread, and most people feel that the safeguards in place are adequate. Also, everyone agrees with you about the borderline cases.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 10:32 pm

Jesusshit, people. No one says schools should give accommodations to people with treatable disabilities. Why do we have the same ADD arguments on every fucking page? If you only want to talk about ADD, this thread serves no further purpose.

honestabe84
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby honestabe84 » Fri May 14, 2010 10:35 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:Jesusshit, people. No one says schools should give accommodations to people with treatable disabilities. Why do we have the same ADD arguments on every fucking page? If you only want to talk about ADD, this thread serves no further purpose.



What if you have an untreatable condition like imbecility?

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Fri May 14, 2010 10:38 pm

honestabe84 wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:Jesusshit, people. No one says schools should give accommodations to people with treatable disabilities. Why do we have the same ADD arguments on every fucking page? If you only want to talk about ADD, this thread serves no further purpose.



What if you have an untreatable condition like imbecility?

I don't know, how does your school handle the issue? 8)

I assume the admissions process weeds out most of the imbeciles.

fenway
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby fenway » Fri May 14, 2010 11:48 pm

I think it can become complicated when ADD is co-morbid with another condition--it's hard to attribute cognitive impairments to one or the other. as someone who gets extra-time, i shared a lot of the ethical concerns of equity when i was first given accommodations. but I ultimately realized there was no way for me to objectively know if its "fair" one way or the other. its not like I am qualified or trained to have diagnosed myself nor could I do the same for any other person in deciding whether he or she had a disability. i always hear about some suggested line that divides real and fake diagnoses. short of being an MD (and a good one at that) how can anyone else chirp in on how to determine where this line is drawn--perhaps with a degree in testing accommodations from Clown College? in the case of ADD, the whole concept of summarily refuting its legitimacy is mystifying assuming the condition was properly diagnosed by a licensed physician. what better practice do we have for diagnosing mental impairments that fall under the ADA? i don't think the counter-argument to this reasoning pushes past self-interest, though I can certainly empathize with the direction its coming from. Going back the other way though, I doubt many people would enjoy taking 100mg adderall/300mg provigil per day (sucks) in order to read. i dont mean this as cry me a river, more so just as be glad you don't have to deal with a disability. as far as the kids who fake it, karmas a bitch

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A'nold
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby A'nold » Sat May 15, 2010 12:29 am

You know, many of you guys have a horrible idea of what ADD is or if it is "treatable." Some people cannot actually function without meds and basically just get by with it.

honestabe84
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby honestabe84 » Sat May 15, 2010 5:47 am

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
honestabe84 wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:Jesusshit, people. No one says schools should give accommodations to people with treatable disabilities. Why do we have the same ADD arguments on every fucking page? If you only want to talk about ADD, this thread serves no further purpose.



What if you have an untreatable condition like imbecility?

I don't know, how does your school handle the issue? 8)

I assume the admissions process weeds out most of the imbeciles.



I'll admit that was a good one. :D

With that said, it seems like the direction we're going in is social engineering with some idealistic attempt to make everyone equal. If someone has an actual disability (but STILL has what it takes), I have no problem with helping them out. What pisses me off is that everyone seems to have a learning disability these days. If someone is not able to keep up with their peers, it's all of sudden 'he/she evidently has some sort of disability.'

It starts in grade school. Whenever some kid has zero self control (or is just plain apathetic or lazy) there is always some fat ass overzealous soccer mom medicating her moronic child and demanding that he/she get some kind of special treatment. We're always so quick to try and explain why someone is unable to succeed. As if everyone is capable of the same thing.

I guess what I'm driving at is that the fraud is what pisses people off most of all. I would wager that half of the people who get accommodated simply don't have the ability to do well, but have been told their entire life that they have a learning disability and are thus entitled to special treatment.

Dyslexia (and other actual disabilities that you can actually test for) are legit IMO. What's ridiculous is how psychiatrists are trying to diagnose every idiot who walks into their office with some sort of disorder. EVERYTHING seems to be a learning disability. I guarantee that if I went into a psychiatrists office and told him/her that I feel that I have a problem because I'm not doing well in school, that doctor would never think 'gee, this person is just an average/below average individual'. No, there would be a rush to diagnose me with some sort of disability.

Note - I'm not for a second suggesting that you or anyone else does not have a legitimate disability that necessitates accommodated testing. I'm just talking about the accommodated testing population in general.

rant/

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rbgrocio
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby rbgrocio » Sat May 15, 2010 7:47 am

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:I was also surprised on how polite everyone has been. I was expecting a round of bashing for my opposition. But I'm glad we can all agree to disagree. I think it is true that if I were not graded on a curve I would think differently about this. Selfish, I know... but as I have mentioned before law school is about survival of the fittest.

Earlier you qualified your opposition as only applying to ADD. Here you seem to have much more broad opposition. Am I misreading you?



Yes, you are misreading me.... or I'm not expressing myself clearly enough.... either one! My opposition deals with ADD ONLY because of the fact that is over-diagnosed, easy to fake, etc...

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AlasLavinia
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby AlasLavinia » Sat May 15, 2010 12:03 pm

I just wanted to post a few anecdotes from a different perspective, involving people very close to me.

My husband is enrolled in a med/PhD program at an Ivy school. When he was younger, he had a seizure disorder that left him with cognitive disabilities and a mild specific language impairment. As an undergraduate and in medical school, he was offered ADA accommodations. But, he refused extra time on exams, a less demanding exam schedule, assistance with notes, etc. Maybe it's ego, but he has always competed with the non-disabled students and been at the top of his class. I know that he struggles with reading and focus, but he has proven that he can overcome his diagnosis and perform as well (better than) the rest of his class.

Also, this issue has come up at my law school. Particularly because we have several students who take the accommodations for their mild ADD, while another student with a serious physical disability takes his exams along with the rest of us and kicks ass.

I admire everyone in competitive academic programs who is able to succeed with a disability. However, I have even more admiration for students who do it with no accommodation. As my husband says, he will not be accommodated in the professional world, and university is the proving ground for future success.

My $.02.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 12:28 pm

AlasLavinia wrote:I just wanted to post a few anecdotes from a different perspective, involving people very close to me.

My husband is enrolled in a med/PhD program at an Ivy school. When he was younger, he had a seizure disorder that left him with cognitive disabilities and a mild specific language impairment. As an undergraduate and in medical school, he was offered ADA accommodations. But, he refused extra time on exams, a less demanding exam schedule, assistance with notes, etc. Maybe it's ego, but he has always competed with the non-disabled students and been at the top of his class. I know that he struggles with reading and focus, but he has proven that he can overcome his diagnosis and perform as well (better than) the rest of his class.

Also, this issue has come up at my law school. Particularly because we have several students who take the accommodations for their mild ADD, while another student with a serious physical disability takes his exams along with the rest of us and kicks ass.

I admire everyone in competitive academic programs who is able to succeed with a disability. However, I have even more admiration for students who do it with no accommodation. As my husband says, he will not be accommodated in the professional world, and university is the proving ground for future success.

My $.02.

If that is the case, it is only because he chooses that route. The professional world is accommodating because it is our legal right. Why would you admire a person who physically can succeed without accommodations more than someone like me who could not possibly read fast enough to do so?

I admire anyone with a documented disability who succeeds period.

transferornot
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby transferornot » Sat May 15, 2010 1:01 pm

this is a stupid thread. I feel like from reading everything each person is a case by case basis to see if they are "gaming the system."

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat May 15, 2010 1:20 pm

transferornot wrote:this is a stupid thread. I feel like from reading everything each person is a case by case basis to see if they are "gaming the system."

That was a stupid post, but it is a case by case basis. This thread has been extremely enlightening and useful.

transferornot
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby transferornot » Sat May 15, 2010 1:24 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
transferornot wrote:this is a stupid thread. I feel like from reading everything each person is a case by case basis to see if they are "gaming the system."

That was a stupid post, but it is a case by case basis. This thread has been extremely enlightening and useful.


do you know how many disabilities that exist?

Yes, it was informational in the terms of: figuring out how accomodations work, personal/inspring stories. But... OP wanted to know if when you have extra time it's easy to "game the system..." Obviously it varies on a case by case basis. That's what I meant.

transferALT
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby transferALT » Sat May 15, 2010 1:31 pm

rbgrocio wrote:
mikeytwoshoes wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:I was also surprised on how polite everyone has been. I was expecting a round of bashing for my opposition. But I'm glad we can all agree to disagree. I think it is true that if I were not graded on a curve I would think differently about this. Selfish, I know... but as I have mentioned before law school is about survival of the fittest.

Earlier you qualified your opposition as only applying to ADD. Here you seem to have much more broad opposition. Am I misreading you?



Yes, you are misreading me.... or I'm not expressing myself clearly enough.... either one! My opposition deals with ADD ONLY because of the fact that is over-diagnosed, easy to fake, etc...

This is true insofar as getting prescribed meds. However, this is not true with respect to getting accommodations. You must show far more documentation, including psychometric tests, before you will see accommodation. So, while I agree that ADD is over-diagnosed by GPs, can be easy to fake to get ahold of meds, it does not follow that it is thus easy to get accommodations for. In fact, because every law school/disability center knows what you know, they are far more suspect and stringent—as they should be.

T14donewith1L
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Re: extra time on exams for disabilities

Postby T14donewith1L » Sat May 15, 2010 1:45 pm

This topic has a bunch of 0Ls talking about theory, I thought I'd share how disability exam taking works at my school. First, I'd like to say that anyone with true a disability deserves extra time. But also, I'd like to say that anyone capable of getting into a Top 14 school is not disabled, as they took the LSAT almost certainly in normal conditions.

At my school, I first discovered that there was a disability program in an interesting way. During my first exam, I noticed some people were missing. These few people just so happened to be the smartest people in the entire class, the people who had been gunning and monopolizing the class conversation. So basically, the best grades in our class all ended up going to these people who got extra time, this program was yet another form of gunning. All people have to do to get special accommodations is claim they have an anxiety disorder, and in order to do that you just have to tell a shrink you get nervous before big events (and who the hell doesn't when you have an exam worth your entire grade).

I wish this program was used for people with disabilities or ESLs, but it was not, in fact the ESLs took the test under normal conditions. I don't know how these gunners who exploit the system live with themselves. Also, is a judge going to give you more time to file a motion because you feel nervous? Are you gonna get an extra week to turn in that memo because you have trouble with focus? If you think the answer is yes, you obviously haven't explored the real world.

Just my 2 cents on how these things actually work.




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