Bottom of the class?

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270910
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 7:07 pm

ConMan345 wrote:disco, apper, rayiner, how did you respectively teach yourselves the right approach to the exam? Practice exams and model answers? GTM? etc


http://www.top-law-schools.com/

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 7:16 pm

solidsnake wrote:
Llewellyn wrote:General tips from a professor at my school re: exam taking.

1. Make sure you read the facts correctly, and have interpreted the question correctly.
2. Apply the law to the facts of the question, not the law to the facts of arbitrary questions not asked.
3. Focus on the ambiguities in the question.
4. Recognize and explain both sides, before resolving the issues.
5. If you resolve one issue one way, continue your analysis as if the issue was resolved in the other direction.
6. Do not restate the facts.
7. Do not restate the law unless it applies to your analysis of the issue.
8. Write literately, concisely, and in an organized fashion: make a point and then refute that point in the next sentence, do not make a point and refute that point two paragraphs down.


TITCR


It's not NOT the cr, but it's also a laundry list. Walking the walk muuuuuuuuuch harder than talking the talk when it comes to things like this, especially when fighting against time limits and anxiety and confusion. Most of these platitudes get conveyed to law students. You can memorize every character in them and it won't save you. You've got to teach yourself to do them - to make it instinct - and to know when you're doing it right and when you're not.

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apper123
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby apper123 » Thu May 06, 2010 7:17 pm

also ive never sat down and taken a full practice exam... ever. i look over them for strategy reasons definitely and maybe sometimes outline answers, but i've never actually simulated the exam before the exam day. dunno. works better for me that way.

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 7:18 pm

apper123 wrote:also ive never sat down and taken a full practice exam... ever. i look over them for strategy reasons definitely and maybe sometimes outline answers, but i've never actually simulated the exam before the exam day. dunno. works better for me that way.


+1 to the sentiment. I know a lot of practice exam grinders, and many of them found success, but I also know people who took few if any and still did well.

You have to always be aware of them and learn from them, but there are soooo many ways to properly prepare. But 10x as many ways to improperly prepare ;)

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rbgrocio
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby rbgrocio » Thu May 06, 2010 7:20 pm

disco_barred wrote:
solidsnake wrote:
Llewellyn wrote:General tips from a professor at my school re: exam taking.

1. Make sure you read the facts correctly, and have interpreted the question correctly.
2. Apply the law to the facts of the question, not the law to the facts of arbitrary questions not asked.
3. Focus on the ambiguities in the question.
4. Recognize and explain both sides, before resolving the issues.
5. If you resolve one issue one way, continue your analysis as if the issue was resolved in the other direction.
6. Do not restate the facts.
7. Do not restate the law unless it applies to your analysis of the issue.
8. Write literately, concisely, and in an organized fashion: make a point and then refute that point in the next sentence, do not make a point and refute that point two paragraphs down.


TITCR


It's not NOT the cr, but it's also a laundry list. Walking the walk muuuuuuuuuch harder than talking the talk when it comes to things like this, especially when fighting against time limits and anxiety and confusion. Most of these platitudes get conveyed to law students. You can memorize every character in them and it won't save you. You've got to teach yourself to do them - to make it instinct - and to know when you're doing it right and when you're not.


I agree with this. Like you can know the law perfectly and still not write a perfect exam. We had four hours for Civ. Pro and I still couldn't put in everything I know she is expecting. Did I know the answers? YES. Was I able to apply everything? NO. It gets to the point were you just have to move on to the next essay and some points in the previous one may be completely mediocre, but you just have to move on!!! the beauty of the curve is that if you forget to put in 5 things, and someone forgets 6.... you are still ahead of the game

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Llewellyn
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby Llewellyn » Thu May 06, 2010 7:24 pm

Generally, after making my outline I would review it, read some hornbooks/ go over notes/ etc to fill the gaps in my outline, then I would stare at my outline until my eyeballs bleed identifying places in the outline that denote things like 1) X happens when A exists, Y happens when A' exists, 2) A implies C and then D, but A' implies only C, 3) A and B imply C, but A alone implies C', etc. You know you prepared for a test when you can look at an outline and imagine ambiguities that exist within the law as you currently understand it.

disco_barred wrote:It's not NOT the cr, but it's also a laundry list. Walking the walk muuuuuuuuuch harder than talking the talk when it comes to things like this, especially when fighting against time limits and anxiety and confusion. Most of these platitudes get conveyed to law students. You can memorize every character in them and it won't save you. You've got to teach yourself to do them - to make it instinct - and to know when you're doing it right and when you're not.

I disagree. You learn the steps and make them innate to your nature, then you don't need to worry about shit. I didn't read those tips until after my first semester and I realized I was doing everything already enumerated.

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby solidsnake » Thu May 06, 2010 7:27 pm

disco_barred wrote:
solidsnake wrote:
Llewellyn wrote:General tips from a professor at my school re: exam taking.

1. Make sure you read the facts correctly, and have interpreted the question correctly.
2. Apply the law to the facts of the question, not the law to the facts of arbitrary questions not asked.
3. Focus on the ambiguities in the question.
4. Recognize and explain both sides, before resolving the issues.
5. If you resolve one issue one way, continue your analysis as if the issue was resolved in the other direction.
6. Do not restate the facts.
7. Do not restate the law unless it applies to your analysis of the issue.
8. Write literately, concisely, and in an organized fashion: make a point and then refute that point in the next sentence, do not make a point and refute that point two paragraphs down.


TITCR


It's not NOT the cr, but it's also a laundry list. Walking the walk muuuuuuuuuch harder than talking the talk when it comes to things like this, especially when fighting against time limits and anxiety and confusion. Most of these platitudes get conveyed to law students. You can memorize every character in them and it won't save you. You've got to teach yourself to do them - to make it instinct - and to know when you're doing it right and when you're not.


I don't know who voted you TLS motivational speaker/self-help guru but it should stop. That list is what profs are looking for. There's no magic to law exams other than the quality in which you do the above. Some ppl have a natural talent to qualitatively write better legal analysis and argumentation. NOt knowing how to write an exam means not doing all of the above, but even once you 'know' how or what it is you are supposed to be writing, that doesn't speak to the issue of how qualitatively well you are doing it. No amount of tls self-help talk is going to save you. Practice and training your mind might. But your endless threads and preaching never even get that far.

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A'nold
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby A'nold » Thu May 06, 2010 7:30 pm

+1 to not doing practice exams. I did a few smallish hypos last semester and learned from my mistakes from the first one I did. Maybe I'd do better if I did more practice tests, I don't know.

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RUQRU
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby RUQRU » Thu May 06, 2010 7:32 pm

If you want to stay out of the bottom, read this:

How to Do Your Best on Law School Exams [Paperback]
John Delaney

http://www.amazon.com/How-Your-Best-Sch ... 611&sr=1-1
# Paperback: 166 pages
# Publisher: John Delaney Publications; October 2006 edition (November 2006)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 0960851453
# ISBN-13: 978-0960851454

Also,

LEEWS at leews.com

Mal
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby Mal » Thu May 06, 2010 7:35 pm

solidsnake wrote:
I don't know who voted you TLS motivational speaker/self-help guru but it should stop. That list is what profs are looking for. There's no magic to law exams other than the quality in which you do the above. Some ppl have a natural talent to qualitatively write better legal analysis and argumentation. NOt knowing how to write an exam means not doing all of the above, but even once you 'know' how or what it is you are supposed to be writing, that doesn't speak to the issue of how qualitatively well you are doing it. No amount of tls self-help talk is going to save you. Practice and training your mind might. But your endless threads and preaching never even get that far.


He isn't wrong though. Its hard to walk the walk, I didn't nearly as much as I should have. Its far easier to spend hours in the library than train your mind to follow through on what actually matters. But if you do even some of the things on the list you are going to be around median at most schools.

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:07 pm

solidsnake wrote:I don't know who voted you TLS motivational speaker/self-help guru but it should stop. That list is what profs are looking for. There's no magic to law exams other than the quality in which you do the above. Some ppl have a natural talent to qualitatively write better legal analysis and argumentation. NOt knowing how to write an exam means not doing all of the above, but even once you 'know' how or what it is you are supposed to be writing, that doesn't speak to the issue of how qualitatively well you are doing it. No amount of tls self-help talk is going to save you. Practice and training your mind might. But your endless threads and preaching never even get that far.


ITP, the solidsnake attacks disco_barred, attack's disco_barred's point, makes the same point as disco_barred, agrees with disco_barred's point, attacks disco_barred again for good measure.

:lol:

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby solidsnake » Thu May 06, 2010 8:14 pm

No i just make the point in a qualitatively better way the right attitude for tackling law exams; the ad homs were just for fun :P

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:16 pm

solidsnake wrote:No i just make the point in a qualitatively better way the right attitude for tackling law exams; the ad homs were just for fun :P


baha, either way I feel like we're more or less on the same page. Wooo law school.

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby solidsnake » Thu May 06, 2010 8:22 pm

disco_barred wrote:
solidsnake wrote:No i just make the point in a qualitatively better way the right attitude for tackling law exams; the ad homs were just for fun :P


baha, either way I feel like we're more or less on the same page. Wooo law school.


Agreed. Only in law school (but hopefully in practice) do we get to fight not only about the point, but the way in which it was made, the degree to which it furthered the purpose of making the point, alternatives and consequences of both following and ignoring the point, and whether the purpose, let alone the point itself, is the type of thing we want to be supporting anyway.

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby thorntll » Thu May 06, 2010 8:28 pm

solidsnake wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
solidsnake wrote:No i just make the point in a qualitatively better way the right attitude for tackling law exams; the ad homs were just for fun :P


baha, either way I feel like we're more or less on the same page. Wooo law school.


Agreed. Only in law school (but hopefully in practice) do we get to fight not only about the point, but the way in which it was made, the degree to which it furthered the purpose of making the point, alternatives and consequences of both following and ignoring the point, and whether the purpose, let alone the point itself, is the type of thing we want to be supporting anyway.


HA. Can't wait.

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let/them/eat/cake
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Thu May 06, 2010 8:29 pm

KMaine wrote:....

People in law school are smart. I think "working hard" and "working smart" are very important, but you cannot be sure of anything with the curve. Those people who just didn't give a shit in college, they are not in law school. And even the people who don't work that hard may be good at law school tests and can cram well enough to beat the curve.


o the lulz.

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby teebone51 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:29 pm

apper123 wrote:
To be completely honest, and I'm dead serious when I say this, I'm a very serious poker player and have been playing successfully for 6 years now. And truthfully a lot of those skills are immensely helpful on a law exam.



I'd be interested in hearing what skills you find applicable to law school exams. Been playing off and on for seven years or so, myself. Any serious player knows that the skills are transferable to a wide variety of contexts-- just curious as to what skills you think apply, and how...

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webbylu87
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:39 pm

I'm tagging this as it's actually been pretty damn helpful.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 06, 2010 8:40 pm

webbylu87 wrote:I'm tagging this as it's actually been pretty damn helpful.


Better hope the mods don't see this... or its BANHAMMER FOR YOU!

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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:43 pm

Gah! (...and what for exactly?)

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A'nold
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby A'nold » Thu May 06, 2010 8:44 pm

teebone51 wrote:
apper123 wrote:
To be completely honest, and I'm dead serious when I say this, I'm a very serious poker player and have been playing successfully for 6 years now. And truthfully a lot of those skills are immensely helpful on a law exam.



I'd be interested in hearing what skills you find applicable to law school exams. Been playing off and on for seven years or so, myself. Any serious player knows that the skills are transferable to a wide variety of contexts-- just curious as to what skills you think apply, and how...


I'm pretty dang good at poker too, fwiw.

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truthypants
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby truthypants » Thu May 06, 2010 8:49 pm

ConMan345 wrote:disco, apper, rayiner, how did you respectively teach yourselves the right approach to the exam? Practice exams and model answers? GTM? etc


Do the law preview course. They have an online course (for like 100 bucks)--you can look at the material anytime and it has model law school exam answers (fully explained-why it has a good structure, what you need to include in your answer, how to do analysis/spot issues in an exam setting, etc.). It's really good--got me As.

270910
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:50 pm

truthypants wrote:
ConMan345 wrote:disco, apper, rayiner, how did you respectively teach yourselves the right approach to the exam? Practice exams and model answers? GTM? etc


Do the law preview course. They have an online course (for like 100 bucks)--you can look at the material anytime and it has model law school exam answers (fully explained-why it has a good structure, what you need to include in your answer, how to do analysis/spot issues in an exam setting, etc.). It's really good--got me As.


Heretic.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 06, 2010 8:51 pm

webbylu87 wrote:Gah! (...and what for exactly?)


I dunno... the mods here are really anti-tagging. They usually do like a 24 hour or less slap on the wrist. Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

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webbylu87
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Re: Bottom of the class?

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:52 pm

romothesavior wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Gah! (...and what for exactly?)


I dunno... the mods here are really anti-tagging. They usually do like a 24 hour or less slap on the wrist. Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.


Ah right. First I've heard of this phenomenon. Duly noted.




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