Property Emergency Question.

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rbgrocio
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Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Wed May 05, 2010 8:24 pm

O to A (( A does not record)
O to C ( C does not record)
O to D (D does not record)
D to E ( E records)
C records.
D records.

Between C and E who wins in a race, notice, and race-notice jurisdiction?

Renzo
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby Renzo » Wed May 05, 2010 8:25 pm

Didn't do recording my class. Sorry.

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rbgrocio
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Wed May 05, 2010 8:41 pm

Renzo wrote:Didn't do recording my class. Sorry.


ok.... anyone who did?

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seespotrun
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby seespotrun » Wed May 05, 2010 8:46 pm

rbgrocio wrote:O to A (( A does not record)
O to C ( C does not record)
O to D (D does not record)
D to E ( E records)
C records.
D records.

Between C and E who wins in a race, notice, and race-notice jurisdiction?

Race: C.
Notice: C.
Race-Notice: C.

Edited to avoid epic fail.
Last edited by seespotrun on Wed May 05, 2010 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rbgrocio
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Wed May 05, 2010 8:50 pm

seespotrun wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:O to A (( A does not record)
O to C ( C does not record)
O to D (D does not record)
D to E ( E records)
C records.
D records.

Between C and E who wins in a race, notice, and race-notice jurisdiction?

Race: E.
Notice: C.
Race-Notice: E.



Ok... I know that it is either CCC or CEC... it is one of the two! E's deed is wild so he was not the first one to record a valid deed.

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seespotrun
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby seespotrun » Wed May 05, 2010 8:51 pm

rbgrocio wrote:
seespotrun wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:O to A (( A does not record)
O to C ( C does not record)
O to D (D does not record)
D to E ( E records)
C records.
D records.

Between C and E who wins in a race, notice, and race-notice jurisdiction?

Race: E.
Notice: C.
Race-Notice: E.



Ok... I know that it is either CCC or CEC... it is one of the two! E's deed is wild so he was not the first one to record a valid deed.

CCC

270910
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 8:54 pm

rbgrocio wrote:Ok... I know that it is either CCC or CEC... it is one of the two! E's deed is wild so he was not the first one to record a valid deed.


What makes you say the deed E recorded is not valid?

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seespotrun
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby seespotrun » Wed May 05, 2010 8:58 pm

disco_barred wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:Ok... I know that it is either CCC or CEC... it is one of the two! E's deed is wild so he was not the first one to record a valid deed.


What makes you say the deed E recorded is not valid?


Because a reasonable title search would reveal that D never recorded.

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rbgrocio
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Wed May 05, 2010 8:58 pm

disco_barred wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:Ok... I know that it is either CCC or CEC... it is one of the two! E's deed is wild so he was not the first one to record a valid deed.


What makes you say the deed E recorded is not valid?



There is a gap in the chain of title. The O to D deed has not been recorded. According to our property book, that's a wild deed.

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rbgrocio
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Wed May 05, 2010 8:59 pm

seespotrun wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:Ok... I know that it is either CCC or CEC... it is one of the two! E's deed is wild so he was not the first one to record a valid deed.


What makes you say the deed E recorded is not valid?


Because a reasonable title search would reveal that D never recorded.



So basically a person who has a wild deed is always like on inquiry notice, rite?

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seespotrun
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby seespotrun » Wed May 05, 2010 9:00 pm

rbgrocio wrote:
seespotrun wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:Ok... I know that it is either CCC or CEC... it is one of the two! E's deed is wild so he was not the first one to record a valid deed.


What makes you say the deed E recorded is not valid?


Because a reasonable title search would reveal that D never recorded.



So basically a person who has a wild deed is always like on inquiry notice, rite?


Basically. Some jurisdictions would even consider it constructive notice. At any rate, it makes E less than bona fide.

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vamedic03
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby vamedic03 » Wed May 05, 2010 11:00 pm

seespotrun wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:
seespotrun wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
What makes you say the deed E recorded is not valid?


Because a reasonable title search would reveal that D never recorded.



So basically a person who has a wild deed is always like on inquiry notice, rite?


Basically. Some jurisdictions would even consider it constructive notice. At any rate, it makes E less than bona fide.


Um . . . that's not a wild deed . . . E is a subsequent bona fide purchaser without notice and, under shelter rule, he would step into D's shoes

So Race - E wins
Notice - E wins (shelter rule)
Race-Notice - I dont feel like thinking about it

solidsnake
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby solidsnake » Wed May 05, 2010 11:13 pm

rbgrocio wrote:O to A (( A does not record)
O to C ( C does not record)
O to D (D does not record)
D to E ( E records)
C records.
D records.

Between C and E who wins in a race, notice, and race-notice jurisdiction?



C v. E

N=E because of shelter rule
RN= If zimmer rule (not valid recording if not whole chain of title) applies, then C. If no Zimmer rule, then E
R= if zimmer rule applies, then C. If no Zimmer rule, then E

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seespotrun
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby seespotrun » Wed May 05, 2010 11:15 pm

solidsnake wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:O to A (( A does not record)
O to C ( C does not record)
O to D (D does not record)
D to E ( E records)
C records.
D records.

Between C and E who wins in a race, notice, and race-notice jurisdiction?



C v. E

N=E because of shelter rule
RN= If zimmer rule (not valid recording if not whole chain of title) applies, then C. If no Zimmer rule, then E
R= if zimmer rule applies, then C. If no Zimmer rule, then E


I think this thread is proof that property law is hilarious.

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samiseaborn
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby samiseaborn » Thu May 06, 2010 8:32 am

We didn't cover the Zimmer rule at all, so going on the most basic knowledge of recording; EEE if no one had notice of anything.

SlipperyPete
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby SlipperyPete » Thu May 06, 2010 9:25 am

.
Last edited by SlipperyPete on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.

270910
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:33 am

What slippery pete wrote makes sense to me. It could still be wrong.

As a further point, it's worth noting that these crazy hypos can be counter intuitive. For example, in the notice version, even if E is the current champion the horrible state of the title means that he probably won't be protected if O makes ANOTHER conveyance. In the real world, he also would have needed to both take a quitclaim deed and be a raging moron to have even temporary protection under a notice statute. But it's important to realize that the way these statutes work, you START with "first in time wins" and then you look for a "subsequent purchaser in good faith for value." The law is putting a lot of weight on being the last person who purportedly received the deed, as long as you (won the race, took without notice, or both).

As a policy matter, E winning punishes all of the prior purchasers for not recording their interests, but even once recorded E isn't in a great place. He's probably protected from D attempting to convey, but if O feels like shipping a deed off to F then the fact that E's deed will not be discoverable by F means that under some formulations of the statute (especially notice) E will wind up hosed.

SlipperyPete
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby SlipperyPete » Thu May 06, 2010 9:45 am

.
Last edited by SlipperyPete on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

270910
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 am

SlipperyPete wrote:
disco_barred wrote:As a policy matter, E winning punishes all of the prior purchasers for not recording their interests, but even once recorded E isn't in a great place. He's probably protected from D attempting to convey, but if O feels like shipping a deed off to F then the fact that E's deed will not be discoverable by F means that under some formulations of the statute (especially notice) E will wind up hosed.


This is a good point. Well, given the entire hypo offered by OP, the problem of O to F as it affects E seems to be mitigated because O to D is on the books. F would have constructive notice of O to D and D to E. But if OP's hypo ended right after "D to E (E records)," then yeah, O to F would eff E. I'm going to include that point on my exam if it comes up.


Yup, you're right. I was envisioning an O to F conveyance prior to or without the other recording rather than at the end of the hypo. Just worth thinking about not just who is protected by the recording statute today, but what effect it will have if chicanery persists tomorrow.

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rbgrocio
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Thu May 06, 2010 4:18 pm

Property is stupid. All 1Ls have the same professor and we had our final today and everyone has a different theory on why one answer is right and not another. That thing was multiple choice and I think I got a bad grade.

What about this?

M------> L (for value) L does not record.
M ------> A (for value) A does not record.
A ------> S ( for value) S does not record.
L-------> J for value and J does not record.
J and S record the same day.

What happens in a race jurisdiction?

Race notice?

and Notice?

Different books say different things about this so I just have no clue of what the answer is. We got something like this in the final. This is what I do, which I think is clearly wrong.

Race: I put J wins because the race statute does not apply since they both of them recorded at the same time, and we cant tell who got to the recorder first. So I used the common law rule of first in time. But I didn't choose S though I had initially chosen S because at common law L had a superior title to A (first in time) so when she transferred to J, J acquired that superior title. All S acquired was A's not-superior title. Thus I thought J should win. This, of course is a theory I came up with on the spot! lol.

Under Notice: S wins because she steps on the shoes of A.

Under Race-Notice: L wins.

I hate property!!!!

270910
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 4:56 pm

rbgrocio wrote:Property is stupid. All 1Ls have the same professor and we had our final today and everyone has a different theory on why one answer is right and not another. That thing was multiple choice and I think I got a bad grade.

What about this?

M------> L (for value) L does not record.
M ------> A (for value) A does not record.
A ------> S ( for value) S does not record.
L-------> J for value and J does not record.
J and S record the same day.

What happens in a race jurisdiction?

Race notice?

and Notice?

Different books say different things about this so I just have no clue of what the answer is. We got something like this in the final. This is what I do, which I think is clearly wrong.

Race: I put J wins because the race statute does not apply since they both of them recorded at the same time, and we cant tell who got to the recorder first. So I used the common law rule of first in time. But I didn't choose S though I had initially chosen S because at common law L had a superior title to A (first in time) so when she transferred to J, J acquired that superior title. All S acquired was A's not-superior title. Thus I thought J should win. This, of course is a theory I came up with on the spot! lol.

Under Notice: S wins because she steps on the shoes of A.

Under Race-Notice: L wins.

I hate property!!!!


Push it out of your mind. It's done; move on; drink.

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rbgrocio
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Thu May 06, 2010 6:30 pm

disco_barred wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:Property is stupid. All 1Ls have the same professor and we had our final today and everyone has a different theory on why one answer is right and not another. That thing was multiple choice and I think I got a bad grade.

What about this?

M------> L (for value) L does not record.
M ------> A (for value) A does not record.
A ------> S ( for value) S does not record.
L-------> J for value and J does not record.
J and S record the same day.

What happens in a race jurisdiction?

Race notice?

and Notice?

Different books say different things about this so I just have no clue of what the answer is. We got something like this in the final. This is what I do, which I think is clearly wrong.

Race: I put J wins because the race statute does not apply since they both of them recorded at the same time, and we cant tell who got to the recorder first. So I used the common law rule of first in time. But I didn't choose S though I had initially chosen S because at common law L had a superior title to A (first in time) so when she transferred to J, J acquired that superior title. All S acquired was A's not-superior title. Thus I thought J should win. This, of course is a theory I came up with on the spot! lol.

Under Notice: S wins because she steps on the shoes of A.

Under Race-Notice: L wins.

I hate property!!!!


Push it out of your mind. It's done; move on; drink.


I don't drink! and I'm horrible at pushing things out of my mind.

270910
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 6:34 pm

rbgrocio wrote:I don't drink! and I'm horrible at pushing things out of my mind.


1) try drinking?

2) I know me too fml we're doomed

3) aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

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rbgrocio
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby rbgrocio » Thu May 06, 2010 6:41 pm

disco_barred wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:I don't drink! and I'm horrible at pushing things out of my mind.


1) try drinking?

2) I know me too fml we're doomed

3) aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh



I don't drink ever. I feel like I have failed every final, and I am going to lose my spot. I hate law school rite now.

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flhealth
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Re: Property Emergency Question.

Postby flhealth » Thu May 06, 2010 7:36 pm

that final was stupid. nice job Carlton, you "got" us.




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