I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

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vexion
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby vexion » Mon May 03, 2010 10:44 pm

BigA wrote:+1.

I also balked at the term "outlining" and wondered what the heck this was. As a likely splitter, I would actually like to take a class or something on how to be good student, if such a thing exists


disco_barred wrote:It's called TLS. Your teachers will be Arrow, Scribe, JayCutler'sCombOver, Wahoo1L, and Xeoh85.

Ahem: I posted this in another thread and I think it's relevant here. What follows is an abbreviated list of some of the most famous "Law School Advice" threads/articles/blogs on TLS and a couple of other sites. I'm ZOMG a 0L, so I'm not going to pretend to offer you advice or tell you how to use this advice, but I find just reading it all and trying to internalize it now keeps me from freaking out in the 3 1/2 months till school.

Btw, I would read them in the order presented, because the ones I put at the top are the most comprehensive. They don't just cover "Outlining" or "Examsmanship" or "LEEWS vs. GtM" but attempt to do it all.

Tips for Succeeding in Law School, by Bo Weng (Arrow)
http://www.top-law-schools.com/loyola-study-advice.html
AND the original thread, with very helpful responses to reader questions,
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77628

Successful second semester 1L @ a top law school: study blog, by Scribe
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84040&start=50
Note: This is in the blog section, and therefore the posts read chronologically backwards. Start at the last post of the last page.

Advice for doing well in law school, by xeoh85
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36635#p777665
Note: Be sure to read past the first post, Xeoh offers a host of VERY awesome responses to reader questions.

Success in Law School – A Unique Perspective, anonymous author
http://www.top-law-schools.com/success-in-law-school.html

The Complete 0L Guide to 1L, by JayCutler'sCombover
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77498&p=1905439
Note: This is in the blog section, and therefore the posts read chronologically backwards. Start at the last post of the last page.

Law School Advice (T10), by Wahoo1L
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78769
Wahoo only pops back into the thread a couple times after the first post. There's one good answer to DrmgSprs in there.

If I could do my first semester over again...
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19378

After Grades - What did we learn?
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22536

Advice to 1Ls on Exam-Writing Technique, by Eric Johnson
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/05/whats-your-advi.html

Outlining for Class... , by Austen Parrish
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2010/03/outlining-for-class.html

Preparing for Final Exams, by Austen Parrish
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2010/03/preparing-for-final-exams.html

Thought on First-Year Law School Grades, by Orin Kerr
http://volokh.com/2010/01/16/thought-on-first-year-law-school-grades/

A Common Law School Exam Mistake, by Orin Kerr
--LinkRemoved--

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webbylu87
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby webbylu87 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:01 pm

Not to hijack the thread here, I just didn't feel it was necessary to create a new one when this was close to my question.

Here's an idea just to throw out there. I'm not by any means trying to prep as an 0L but I did my politics undergrad overseas and haven't really even touched information about the US legal system since 12th grade US gov't class. I feel like I might lack some context people who went to college in the US might have. I found a decent and cheap (like $3 or something ridiculous like that) intro to law and the legal system book and am considering just browsing it throughout the summer to brush up on basic legal system info.

Bad or good idea?

270910
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby 270910 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:04 pm

webbylu87 wrote:Not to hijack the thread here, I just didn't feel it was necessary to create a new one when this was close to my question.

Here's an idea just to throw out there. I'm not by any means trying to prep as an 0L but I did my politics undergrad overseas and haven't really even touched information about the US legal system since 12th grade US gov't class. I feel like I might lack some context people who went to college in the US might have. I found a decent and cheap (like $3 or something ridiculous like that) intro to law and the legal system book and am considering just browsing it throughout the summer to brush up on basic legal system info.

Bad or good idea?


Might be a good idea for your case. There is a lot about the political process, federalism, and even American culture that is sort of assumed. Honestly, my guess is that just browsing CNN politics or something for a few months would do about as much good as concentrated study.

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apper123
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby apper123 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:07 pm

webbylu87 wrote:Not to hijack the thread here, I just didn't feel it was necessary to create a new one when this was close to my question.

Here's an idea just to throw out there. I'm not by any means trying to prep as an 0L but I did my politics undergrad overseas and haven't really even touched information about the US legal system since 12th grade US gov't class. I feel like I might lack some context people who went to college in the US might have. I found a decent and cheap (like $3 or something ridiculous like that) intro to law and the legal system book and am considering just browsing it throughout the summer to brush up on basic legal system info.

Bad or good idea?

Totally different than 0L prep. This is fine. I probably don't know any of the stuff in there after my 1L year, lol.

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webbylu87
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby webbylu87 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:09 pm

disco_barred wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Not to hijack the thread here, I just didn't feel it was necessary to create a new one when this was close to my question.

Here's an idea just to throw out there. I'm not by any means trying to prep as an 0L but I did my politics undergrad overseas and haven't really even touched information about the US legal system since 12th grade US gov't class. I feel like I might lack some context people who went to college in the US might have. I found a decent and cheap (like $3 or something ridiculous like that) intro to law and the legal system book and am considering just browsing it throughout the summer to brush up on basic legal system info.

Bad or good idea?


Might be a good idea for your case. There is a lot about the political process, federalism, and even American culture that is sort of assumed. Honestly, my guess is that just browsing CNN politics or something for a few months would do about as much good as concentrated study.


Fair enough. I might just go that route. I suppose even just reading some political books might just serve as a decent enough refresher. I guess I'm just a bit concerned that I don't really know the court structure and have pretty much forgotten the legal process. I'm already planning on reading GTM. Do you think this and trolling CNN and NLJ a couple times a week would suffice?

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apper123
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby apper123 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:12 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Not to hijack the thread here, I just didn't feel it was necessary to create a new one when this was close to my question.

Here's an idea just to throw out there. I'm not by any means trying to prep as an 0L but I did my politics undergrad overseas and haven't really even touched information about the US legal system since 12th grade US gov't class. I feel like I might lack some context people who went to college in the US might have. I found a decent and cheap (like $3 or something ridiculous like that) intro to law and the legal system book and am considering just browsing it throughout the summer to brush up on basic legal system info.

Bad or good idea?


Might be a good idea for your case. There is a lot about the political process, federalism, and even American culture that is sort of assumed. Honestly, my guess is that just browsing CNN politics or something for a few months would do about as much good as concentrated study.


Fair enough. I might just go that route. I suppose even just reading some political books might just serve as a decent enough refresher. I guess I'm just a bit concerned that I don't really know the court structure and have pretty much forgotten the legal process. I'm already planning on reading GTM. Do you think this and trolling CNN and NLJ a couple times a week would suffice?


Doing nothing suffices. Anything you do is superfluous and for your own enjoyment. Just don't do anything potentially detrimental (like trying to work through EEs as a 0L).

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webbylu87
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby webbylu87 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:17 pm

apper123 wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Not to hijack the thread here, I just didn't feel it was necessary to create a new one when this was close to my question.

Here's an idea just to throw out there. I'm not by any means trying to prep as an 0L but I did my politics undergrad overseas and haven't really even touched information about the US legal system since 12th grade US gov't class. I feel like I might lack some context people who went to college in the US might have. I found a decent and cheap (like $3 or something ridiculous like that) intro to law and the legal system book and am considering just browsing it throughout the summer to brush up on basic legal system info.

Bad or good idea?


Might be a good idea for your case. There is a lot about the political process, federalism, and even American culture that is sort of assumed. Honestly, my guess is that just browsing CNN politics or something for a few months would do about as much good as concentrated study.


Fair enough. I might just go that route. I suppose even just reading some political books might just serve as a decent enough refresher. I guess I'm just a bit concerned that I don't really know the court structure and have pretty much forgotten the legal process. I'm already planning on reading GTM. Do you think this and trolling CNN and NLJ a couple times a week would suffice?


Doing nothing suffices. Anything you do is superfluous and for your own enjoyment. Just don't do anything potentially detrimental (like trying to work through EEs as a 0L).


Oh, God no. I just want to be able to hit the ground running and to not be concerned about knowing the basic legal info and trying to catch up in that aspect. I'm by no means planning on reading through cases or anything. I already have a goal of reading 10 good, non-law related books during the summer to keep my time occupied. (So far: Voltaire's Candide and Willa Cather's O Pioneers!)

Thanks for the responses.

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BigA
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby BigA » Tue May 04, 2010 1:50 am

vexion wrote:
BigA wrote:+1.

I also balked at the term "outlining" and wondered what the heck this was. As a likely splitter, I would actually like to take a class or something on how to be good student, if such a thing exists


disco_barred wrote:It's called TLS. Your teachers will be Arrow, Scribe, JayCutler'sCombOver, Wahoo1L, and Xeoh85.

Ahem: I posted this in another thread and I think it's relevant here. What follows is an abbreviated list of some of the most famous "Law School Advice" threads/articles/blogs on TLS and a couple of other sites. I'm ZOMG a 0L, so I'm not going to pretend to offer you advice or tell you how to use this advice, but I find just reading it all and trying to internalize it now keeps me from freaking out in the 3 1/2 months till school.

Btw, I would read them in the order presented, because the ones I put at the top are the most comprehensive. They don't just cover "Outlining" or "Examsmanship" or "LEEWS vs. GtM" but attempt to do it all.

Tips for Succeeding in Law School, by Bo Weng (Arrow)
http://www.top-law-schools.com/loyola-study-advice.html
AND the original thread, with very helpful responses to reader questions,
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77628

Successful second semester 1L @ a top law school: study blog, by Scribe
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84040&start=50
Note: This is in the blog section, and therefore the posts read chronologically backwards. Start at the last post of the last page.

Advice for doing well in law school, by xeoh85
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36635#p777665
Note: Be sure to read past the first post, Xeoh offers a host of VERY awesome responses to reader questions.

Success in Law School – A Unique Perspective, anonymous author
http://www.top-law-schools.com/success-in-law-school.html

The Complete 0L Guide to 1L, by JayCutler'sCombover
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77498&p=1905439
Note: This is in the blog section, and therefore the posts read chronologically backwards. Start at the last post of the last page.

Law School Advice (T10), by Wahoo1L
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78769
Wahoo only pops back into the thread a couple times after the first post. There's one good answer to DrmgSprs in there.

If I could do my first semester over again...
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19378

After Grades - What did we learn?
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22536

Advice to 1Ls on Exam-Writing Technique, by Eric Johnson
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/05/whats-your-advi.html

Outlining for Class... , by Austen Parrish
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2010/03/outlining-for-class.html

Preparing for Final Exams, by Austen Parrish
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2010/03/preparing-for-final-exams.html

Thought on First-Year Law School Grades, by Orin Kerr
http://volokh.com/2010/01/16/thought-on-first-year-law-school-grades/

A Common Law School Exam Mistake, by Orin Kerr
--LinkRemoved--

bookmarked. Thanks

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billyez
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby billyez » Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 am

Willa Cather? That sounds vaguely familar...it's a goshdarned shame that I remember that RC passage after all this time.

Thanks vexion for posting those links.

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Bustang
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby Bustang » Tue May 04, 2010 12:54 pm

apper123 wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Not to hijack the thread here, I just didn't feel it was necessary to create a new one when this was close to my question.

Here's an idea just to throw out there. I'm not by any means trying to prep as an 0L but I did my politics undergrad overseas and haven't really even touched information about the US legal system since 12th grade US gov't class. I feel like I might lack some context people who went to college in the US might have. I found a decent and cheap (like $3 or something ridiculous like that) intro to law and the legal system book and am considering just browsing it throughout the summer to brush up on basic legal system info.

Bad or good idea?


Might be a good idea for your case. There is a lot about the political process, federalism, and even American culture that is sort of assumed. Honestly, my guess is that just browsing CNN politics or something for a few months would do about as much good as concentrated study.


Fair enough. I might just go that route. I suppose even just reading some political books might just serve as a decent enough refresher. I guess I'm just a bit concerned that I don't really know the court structure and have pretty much forgotten the legal process. I'm already planning on reading GTM. Do you think this and trolling CNN and NLJ a couple times a week would suffice?


Doing nothing suffices. Anything you do is superfluous and for your own enjoyment. Just don't do anything potentially detrimental (like trying to work through EEs as a 0L).


Yet over half of those guides say the exact opposite?

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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby keg411 » Tue May 04, 2010 1:06 pm

Advice for doing well in law school, by xeoh85
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36635#p777665
Note: Be sure to read past the first post, Xeoh offers a host of VERY awesome responses to reader questions.


This one scared the crap out of me. How am I supposed to do that? :(.

270910
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby 270910 » Tue May 04, 2010 1:40 pm

keg411 wrote:
Advice for doing well in law school, by xeoh85
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36635#p777665
Note: Be sure to read past the first post, Xeoh offers a host of VERY awesome responses to reader questions.


This one scared the crap out of me. How am I supposed to do that? :(.


lol... it's law school. Not everyone works as hard (nearly as hard) as Xeoh, but it's a grueling competition. A case study in arms races.

What were you expecting?

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apper123
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby apper123 » Tue May 04, 2010 4:05 pm

Bustang wrote:
apper123 wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
Might be a good idea for your case. There is a lot about the political process, federalism, and even American culture that is sort of assumed. Honestly, my guess is that just browsing CNN politics or something for a few months would do about as much good as concentrated study.


Fair enough. I might just go that route. I suppose even just reading some political books might just serve as a decent enough refresher. I guess I'm just a bit concerned that I don't really know the court structure and have pretty much forgotten the legal process. I'm already planning on reading GTM. Do you think this and trolling CNN and NLJ a couple times a week would suffice?


Doing nothing suffices. Anything you do is superfluous and for your own enjoyment. Just don't do anything potentially detrimental (like trying to work through EEs as a 0L).


Yet over half of those guides say the exact opposite?


what? where? who? did you misunderstand me?

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Bustang
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby Bustang » Tue May 04, 2010 4:31 pm

what? where? who? did you misunderstand me?


Most of those guides point to the fact that the author worked through at least 3 EE's over his/her 0L summer. You stated that doing that sort of activity would be potentially detrimental.

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apper123
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby apper123 » Tue May 04, 2010 5:29 pm

Bustang wrote:
what? where? who? did you misunderstand me?


Most of those guides point to the fact that the author worked through at least 3 EE's over his/her 0L summer. You stated that doing that sort of activity would be potentially detrimental.


correct. which guides say this?

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vanwinkle
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby vanwinkle » Tue May 04, 2010 5:35 pm

Bustang wrote:
what? where? who? did you misunderstand me?

Most of those guides point to the fact that the author worked through at least 3 EE's over his/her 0L summer. You stated that doing that sort of activity would be potentially detrimental.

Any guide that suggests doing substantial work as a 0L should be promptly placed in the round file.

--ImageRemoved--

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vexion
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby vexion » Tue May 04, 2010 6:28 pm

Truth-Slap Time!

http://www.top-law-schools.com/loyola-study-advice.html

Arrow wrote:I went the typical gunner route and read all 6 Examples and Explanations (E&E’s), ... Getting to Maybe, Law School Confidential, Planet Law School, did LEEWS, and Delaney's Logic for Lawyers.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84040&start=50

Scribe wrote:Summer Prep: I read the sections on negligence and intentional torts in the E&E book because I was desperate to have some idea of what law school would be like, and because I really wanted a foundation before learning about exam prep. I highly doubt this aspect was at all useful.

I ordered LEEWS and listened to the entire program, I read Getting to Maybe and the Delaney book on test prep. I figure examsmanship was the one thing I could really start focusing on before classes started. I also read numerous threads about what worked and what didn't work on TLS. Very good stuff.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36635#p777665

xeoh85 wrote:Quite a few people have also been asking for my opinion on what one should do during the summer before their 1L year.

Personally, all I did was read Getting to Maybe: How to Excel on Law School Exams. (Actually, I also read several other similar books, all of which were crap. Save your time. Read this one.) I then took the rest of the summer off to relax, have fun, and mentally prepare myself for the 1L grind.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/success- ... chool.html

Anonymous NYU Student wrote:I did nothing the summer before in preparation for law school and mainly focused on preparing for and passing the Patent Bar Exam.

You can be like me and do nothing before starting school and you can still do well (although it may be harder).

If you want to do some work, but not an outrageous amount, I would start by reading the Examples & Explanations books before school. Start with torts or one of the easier subjects, since this may be your first introduction to law. I think it is very valuable to get an overview of a course in advance, and you are cutting out work that you are going to have to do anyway.

If you are a gunner, and value nothing other than school, I would probably recommend reading all E&E books and hornbooks before class. I would begin to really work into the statutes like the UCC and Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. I would make a sample outline for one class, and begin with practice tests in that area. If you were to do this before law school, and then continue with gunner tendencies throughout the semester, I could not see how you would fail to get nearly all A's (a few scattered A-s are probably unavoidable because there is some subjective judgment in picking the A's from the A-'s). If you cannot make law review after doing all of that, the issue lies with you and not your diligence.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77498&p=1905439

JayCutler'sCombover wrote:So let's start with the most controversial topic. Should you prep this summer? Yes. An emphatic yes. I did and it helped. But they key is that you should focus on test-taking prep rather than substantive law prep. No one in law school will ever teach you how to take a law school exam (at least in my experience), so it is up to you to figure that out on your own. Since you will be innundated with substantive material during the semester, it is best to get test-prep done during the summer (at least as much as you can). Once you understand the types of tests you will be taking, this can help you structure your studying during the semester.

Here is a list of books you should get this summer for test prep:

Getting to Maybe: --LinkRemoved-- ... 0890897603
LEEWS: http://www.leews.com/
John Delaney: --LinkRemoved-- ... 0960851453

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78769

Wahoo1L wrote:During the summer before my first year I planned on preparing for law school based on the mentality that it couldn't hurt. I ordered the Glannon Guides for civil procedure, and a contracts supplement. I didn't end up reading either of them before law school and don't think that it really mattered at all.

After having gone through 1L year, my advice to prospective law students is to read Getting to Maybe.





tl;dr:
  • Arrow did it, but doesn't advocate for or against it. He does say that he enjoyed it.
  • Scribe read a bit, and doubts they were useful.
  • Xeoh85 only read GtM, and calls the others crap.
  • The NYU student did nothing themselves, but offers a plan of attack if you feel like it, and says they don't think it can hurt.
  • JayCutler'sCombover says to read GtM, Delaney, and do LEEWS.
  • Wahoo1L didn't read anything, and recommends GtM.

Of all the most popular guides on TLS, only one actually READ all the E&Es (aka, the PLS approach.) But in his guide he doesn't really argue for or against it. The only other guide who even suggest maybe doing it is the NYU student, but they admittedly didn't do it.

The only common thread of advice is to read Getting to Maybe. A couple suggest LEEWS and/or Delaney, and no others expressly argue against this.

mollie
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby mollie » Tue May 04, 2010 9:55 pm

just buy a commercial outline and study your notes

keg411
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby keg411 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:20 am

disco_barred wrote:
keg411 wrote:
Advice for doing well in law school, by xeoh85
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36635#p777665
Note: Be sure to read past the first post, Xeoh offers a host of VERY awesome responses to reader questions.


This one scared the crap out of me. How am I supposed to do that? :(.


lol... it's law school. Not everyone works as hard (nearly as hard) as Xeoh, but it's a grueling competition. A case study in arms races.

What were you expecting?


Xeoh's schedule just seemed grueling... On 4 hours of sleep/night and no time to breathe seems miserable considering it seems like he NEVER went out or took time off (especially since he said people worked just as hard and ended up at median; although I guess the 1.5 hour commute every day may not make it quite as atrocious of a schedule); and he didn't socialize at all which seems isolating. Some of the others don't seem quite as brutal (the UVA one and Arrow both seemed much more "normal").

I dunno, I just don't want to end up in the hospital over Christmas break next year due to a nervous breakdown :(.

270910
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:24 am

keg411 wrote:I dunno, I just don't want to end up in the hospital over Christmas break next year due to a nervous breakdown :(.


Don't be ridiculous. There would never be enough room at hospitals for all the 1Ls who have nervous breakdowns.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Wed May 05, 2010 1:11 am

disco_barred wrote:
keg411 wrote:I dunno, I just don't want to end up in the hospital over Christmas break next year due to a nervous breakdown :(.


Don't be ridiculous. There would never be enough room at hospitals for all the 1Ls who have nervous breakdowns.

You're almost there. You're making impressive strides.

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mac.empress
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Re: I havent outlined since 4th grade social studies hw

Postby mac.empress » Wed May 05, 2010 1:12 am

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
keg411 wrote:I dunno, I just don't want to end up in the hospital over Christmas break next year due to a nervous breakdown :(.


Don't be ridiculous. There would never be enough room at hospitals for all the 1Ls who have nervous breakdowns.

You're almost there. You're making impressive strides.


:lol:




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