what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student? Forum
- lsat_fear
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what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
I was looking at a clerkship application page and it said that they look at your course selection to make sure you're "well-rounded." What courses does that mean? I'd assume it probably includes Fed Courts, Corporations, and Admin, but what else?
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Any class that you can most easily get an A in will make you the most "well rounded" for clerkships.
I'm pretty sure this is one of those things they have to say, like "law schools adcoms seek 'well rounded' applicants, and base their admissions decisions on a number of factors."
All the clerks I have talked to that pre-screen clerkship apps for their judges have said School, Rank/GPA, and LR/Journal are king.
I'm pretty sure this is one of those things they have to say, like "law schools adcoms seek 'well rounded' applicants, and base their admissions decisions on a number of factors."
All the clerks I have talked to that pre-screen clerkship apps for their judges have said School, Rank/GPA, and LR/Journal are king.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
The big breakdown is between heavily doctrinal courses (evidence, trusts and estates, federal income tax, corporations, federal courts, bankruptcy, etc.) and off-beat seminars "Shakespeare & The Law" etc. Most people agree that all else being equal, a resume that is heaviest on doctrinal classes looks more impressive. At many schools seminars have more lenient curves as well, which contributes to the feeling that they are 'soft' courses. That being said, as the above poster said the actual GPA (and rank) is a much more important factor.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
^ both above posts are highly credited. A "well-rounded" student is one who is capable of excelling in difficult doctrinal courses while remaining heavily involved with the school's flagship journal.
- remotelyfeasible
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Generally speaking, I believe that judges like Fed Courts, Admin, Con Law (if not in 1L curriculum) and Crim Pro. For federal courts, employment discrimination can also be pretty useful.
It's also best if you take as little fluff as possible (if half your classes are Law & Literature, that's a problem).
Of course, GPA and Law Review participation are far more important than what specific classes you take.
It's also best if you take as little fluff as possible (if half your classes are Law & Literature, that's a problem).
Of course, GPA and Law Review participation are far more important than what specific classes you take.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Disco is right. A 2nd cir. judge I met recently said that he wanted not just to see good grades, but to see a transcript with lots of black letter classes. He said, " I don't really care how well you do in any law-and-blank classes. I want to see someone who has taken lots of classes on subjects that will be coming before the court--employment law, securities law, and so on."
- Grad_Student
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
WTF IS FED. COURTS! you all keep talking about it and why the fuck doesn't my school have that?!
Anyways, Evidence, Payment, Tax, CrimPro
Anyways, Evidence, Payment, Tax, CrimPro
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
No way your school doesn't have fed courts. Really?Grad_Student wrote:WTF IS FED. COURTS! you all keep talking about it and why the fuck doesn't my school have that?!
Anyways, Evidence, Payment, Tax, CrimPro
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Do you have federal jurisdiction? similar stuff as i understand it.
- Grad_Student
- Posts: 351
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Maybe I just never looked for it.Renzo wrote:No way your school doesn't have fed courts. Really?Grad_Student wrote:WTF IS FED. COURTS! you all keep talking about it and why the fuck doesn't my school have that?!
Anyways, Evidence, Payment, Tax, CrimPro
- remotelyfeasible
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Yeah Fed Courts = Fed Jur. And pretty much every school should offer it, I would think.Grad_Student wrote:Maybe I just never looked for it.Renzo wrote:No way your school doesn't have fed courts. Really?Grad_Student wrote:WTF IS FED. COURTS! you all keep talking about it and why the fuck doesn't my school have that?!
Anyways, Evidence, Payment, Tax, CrimPro
- XxSpyKEx
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
disco_barred posted the classes. In all honestly, it only matter if you want to clerk, and even then only 2L courses matter. If you don't want to clerk it doesn't matter at all what you take because OCI is done at the beginning of your 2nd year, which will either lead to an offer or it won't. If it doesn't, then you are going to have to hustle like every TTT grad in the country for a non-large firm job and I'd bet that virtually none of those firms will ever ask you for a transcript. In fact, no large firms even ask for a transcript outside of OCI that I encountered (I only interviewed with 5-8 firms outside of OCI, but not a single one asked for a transcript).
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
There is one big exception to this, but it doesn't apply to everyone: If you want to do criminal work, prosecutors offices and PD offices really, really expect you to have taken crim pro and evidence.XxSpyKEx wrote:disco_barred posted the classes. In all honestly, it only matter if you want to clerk, and even then only 2L courses matter. If you don't want to clerk it doesn't matter at all what you take because OCI is done at the beginning of your 2nd year, which will either lead to an offer or it won't. If it doesn't, then you are going to have to hustle like every TTT grad in the country for a non-large firm job and I'd bet that virtually none of those firms will ever ask you for a transcript. In fact, no large firms even ask for a transcript outside of OCI that I encountered (I only interviewed with 5-8 firms outside of OCI, but not a single one asked for a transcript).
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Corporations, Tax, Securities Reg.
If you want to be a litigator Evidence. Maybe Labor Law. Jurisdiction (although in some schools it's already covered under Civ Pro) and I think at my school it's separate from Fed Courts. Maybe Econ Analysis of the Law. Commercial Transactions.
Fed Courts if you are interested in clerking. Admin (although I'm NEVER taking this since I hated Con Law).
If you want to be a litigator Evidence. Maybe Labor Law. Jurisdiction (although in some schools it's already covered under Civ Pro) and I think at my school it's separate from Fed Courts. Maybe Econ Analysis of the Law. Commercial Transactions.
Fed Courts if you are interested in clerking. Admin (although I'm NEVER taking this since I hated Con Law).
- mikeytwoshoes
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Maybe they weren't interested in hiring you. Did you get callbacks?XxSpyKEx wrote:disco_barred posted the classes. In all honestly, it only matter if you want to clerk, and even then only 2L courses matter. If you don't want to clerk it doesn't matter at all what you take because OCI is done at the beginning of your 2nd year, which will either lead to an offer or it won't. If it doesn't, then you are going to have to hustle like every TTT grad in the country for a non-large firm job and I'd bet that virtually none of those firms will ever ask you for a transcript. In fact, no large firms even ask for a transcript outside of OCI that I encountered (I only interviewed with 5-8 firms outside of OCI, but not a single one asked for a transcript).
- XxSpyKEx
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
This doesn't even make sense. Typically non-OCI firms would ask for a transcript prior to calling you in for an interview (if they wanted it). Additionally, why would a firm waste their time interviewing someone they aren't interested in hiring? It's not like these partners just had unlimited time and want to call people in for interviews for shits and giggles (I don't really remember that well since it was a while ago, but I recall pretty much all of them being interviews with partners).mikeytwoshoes wrote:Maybe they weren't interested in hiring you. Did you get callbacks?XxSpyKEx wrote:disco_barred posted the classes. In all honestly, it only matter if you want to clerk, and even then only 2L courses matter. If you don't want to clerk it doesn't matter at all what you take because OCI is done at the beginning of your 2nd year, which will either lead to an offer or it won't. If it doesn't, then you are going to have to hustle like every TTT grad in the country for a non-large firm job and I'd bet that virtually none of those firms will ever ask you for a transcript. In fact, no large firms even ask for a transcript outside of OCI that I encountered (I only interviewed with 5-8 firms outside of OCI, but not a single one asked for a transcript).
I only got a callback at one of the non-OCI firms, but that wasn't too surprising given that I had no ties to the other market (and all but the one interview was for the other market; OCI I only bid on the one market that I had ties to)... I still don't really understand your line of reasoning here though. If a firm would call someone in for a screening interview that they have no interest in hiring (perhaps for shits and giggles), then why wouldn't they also call someone in for a callback that they have no interest in hiring?
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
I just came here to say that I hate Admin.
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- prezidentv8
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
I hear bad things. Am staying away from that for now.BetterCallSaul wrote:I just came here to say that I hate Admin.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
- Stupid 1L Question -
As the evil 1L curve is gone from these classes, does anyone find it difficult to get an A in 2L/3L classes?
As the evil 1L curve is gone from these classes, does anyone find it difficult to get an A in 2L/3L classes?
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
I recommend "federal courts" or "federal jurisdiction"; my school only offers federal jurisdiction but I don't think there is an enormous difference between the two. I took it in my 2L year. I thought it was really challenging because the concepts there are really abstract. Not surprisingly, there were less than 15 people in that class, at least in my school. Whoever wants to clerk should take this class, federal clerks especially. It's a useful course, much more demanding and intellectually challenging that say a course like "Law and Shakespeare". If you have done well in Con Law, you will find this course interesting. My next stop will be admin law. I find that my background in federal jurisidiction helps in Crim Pro; there are a lot of overlapping themes.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Depends greatly on the school. At some schools, the evil 1L curve never leaves. At others, it is slightly loosened. Yet others loosen it for seminars but not for lecture courses, or else draw the line at a certain number of students.eth3n wrote:- Stupid 1L Question -
As the evil 1L curve is gone from these classes, does anyone find it difficult to get an A in 2L/3L classes?
No matter what, a dedicated student will have an easier time getting good grades after the first year because of attrition. Law school sucks and takes a lot of work, people are going to start phoning it in eventually.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
yes, an A is still hard to get in upper classes where there are more than 60 people in the class.
Doctrinal courses like Evidence, Income Tax, Crim Pro, BA, Secured Transactions are always packed. Your whole grade hinges on the final exam.
Doctrinal courses like Evidence, Income Tax, Crim Pro, BA, Secured Transactions are always packed. Your whole grade hinges on the final exam.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
The curve is looser but still there. Of course, it depends on the class.eth3n wrote:- Stupid 1L Question -
As the evil 1L curve is gone from these classes, does anyone find it difficult to get an A in 2L/3L classes?
My evil admin course, for example, contains basically all the members of law review so it doesn't really matter that the curve loosened up a bit.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
Yeah, at most schools it's possible to stack your schedule with some small seminars that aren't curved, but the curve usually remains in place for the doctrinal classes.disco_barred wrote:Depends greatly on the school. At some schools, the evil 1L curve never leaves. At others, it is slightly loosened. Yet others loosen it for seminars but not for lecture courses, or else draw the line at a certain number of students.eth3n wrote:- Stupid 1L Question -
As the evil 1L curve is gone from these classes, does anyone find it difficult to get an A in 2L/3L classes?
No matter what, a dedicated student will have an easier time getting good grades after the first year because of attrition. Law school sucks and takes a lot of work, people are going to start phoning it in eventually.
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Re: what 2L/3L courses make you a "well-rounded" student?
well, I really wish I didn't ask that question so I could enjoy my summer full of naive hopes that I would never take a curved test again.
also, wtf is "complex litigation" and should a "well-rounded" individual add it to the list?
also, wtf is "complex litigation" and should a "well-rounded" individual add it to the list?
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