Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

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MVPer1982
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Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby MVPer1982 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:31 pm

Hi guys, I'm desperate for some help. I'm at MVP and my 1st semester grades were awful (bottom of the class). I've been trying to work harder this semester, but I don't feel any more prepared for finals. I don't love being here, and I'm only interested in staying in hopes of getting a good paying job (good meaning > $70,000).

I'm paying sticker, and a job offer just opened up back home that is pretty good. If I leave now before finals I can get a refund on this semester.

My question is, assuming I stay at the bottom of the class, what are my employment prospects from MVP? Is it worth staying or not? If I don't leave now this job opportunity disappears, so I'll be stuck all the way to the end. My parents want me to stay because they think even with my grades I could get that $70,000 salary, but I don't know. Help!!!

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romothesavior
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi guys, I'm desperate for some help. I'm at MVP and my 1st semester grades were awful (bottom of the class). I've been trying to work harder this semester, but I don't feel any more prepared for finals. I don't love being here, and I'm only interested in staying in hopes of getting a good paying job (good meaning > $70,000).

I'm paying sticker, and a job offer just opened up back home that is pretty good. If I leave now before finals I can get a refund on this semester.

My question is, assuming I stay at the bottom of the class, what are my employment prospects from MVP? Is it worth staying or not? If I don't leave now this job opportunity disappears, so I'll be stuck all the way to the end. My parents want me to stay because they think even with my grades I could get that $70,000 salary, but I don't know. Help!!!


It sounds like you hate law school and you are in it for the money (not that there is anything wrong with that). If you can leave a place you're not enjoying to get a pretty good job, then do so. It sounds like the decision that makes the most since, both financially and personally.

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baboon309
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby baboon309 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi guys, I'm desperate for some help. I'm at MVP and my 1st semester grades were awful (bottom of the class). I've been trying to work harder this semester, but I don't feel any more prepared for finals. I don't love being here, and I'm only interested in staying in hopes of getting a good paying job (good meaning > $70,000).

I'm paying sticker, and a job offer just opened up back home that is pretty good. If I leave now before finals I can get a refund on this semester.

My question is, assuming I stay at the bottom of the class, what are my employment prospects from MVP? Is it worth staying or not? If I don't leave now this job opportunity disappears, so I'll be stuck all the way to the end. My parents want me to stay because they think even with my grades I could get that $70,000 salary, but I don't know. Help!!!


What kind of job is that? and How much are they paying?

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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:55 pm

The job pays $41,000, and is relatively enjoyable, but not my dream job. I'm worried about passing up the earning potential coming out of MVP. I worked really hard to get into this school, and I'm very scared to walk away from it. But I also am very afraid to graduate and be unemployed, or only making $40,000.

I know that I shouldn't only think about money, but my parents don't make a lot of money, and I know first hand how hard it can be in life working a job you don't love and not getting paid a lot for it. I don't love the law, but if I can earn $70,000 starting then I think it is worth it. But I'm scared my grades have screwed me.

I'm really in a bad place right now. :( I appreciate any help you guys can give me.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:59 pm

(0L*)

Why exactly did you want to go to LS in the first place? Maybe look in that direction for help.

Also, is there a professor or adviser you can talk to?

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chadwick218
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby chadwick218 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:05 am

Well, I would finish out this semester strongly, first. The fed gov't and biglaw are pretty much out of the question. I would think long and hard about what you wanted to do with a law degree. Dropping out may be the most practical thing that you could do.

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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:11 am

It reads as if you have already made the decision to drop out.
What is "MVP"?

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chadwick218
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby chadwick218 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:It reads as if you have already made the decision to drop out.
What is "MVP"?


Seriously? Michigan, Virginia, Penn. I would be willing to forgive the whole MVP thing if this wasn't anonymous?

HyeMart
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby HyeMart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:21 am

your first job may not be ideal, but the mvp will always be on the resume dude

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RVP11
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:23 am

HyeMart wrote:your first job may not be ideal, but the mvp will always be on the resume dude


It's questionable how much having a fancy name on your resume matters if it's followed by a law firm no one's ever heard of.

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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:23 am

OP,
I think you should go level with your career services people. Let them know what's going on, and say everything that you feel. Don't sugarcoat anything, and explain to them exactly why you went to law school, and what you'd like to do after law school. Don't lie about any of your motivations or hopes. you're already in the school, and they aren't going to kick you out for admitting that you went to law school for reasons that weren't completely altruistic or virtuous.

IMO (and based off my experience working in a higher education administrative office) the people at your career services office will appreciate your honesty and they'll give you a fair assessment of what you can hope to do if your situation does not improve i.e. you graduate at the bottom of your class. The people at your cso know there's plenty of transfers ready to take your spot and pay sticker to do so, so their (the people at cso) incentive to lie to you about why you should stay is not nearly as high as you might imagine. Talk to them asap. You have nothing to lose by doing so.

also, check your school's policy about returning. I know that some schools will let you leave after a year (assuming you're in good standing) and automatically get re-admitted, but the some of the same schools will not afford you the same benefit of auto-readmit if you leave before the first year is up. That should play a substantial role in your decision.

Best of luck.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:25 am

(0L*)

Why exactly did you want to go to LS in the first place? Maybe look in that direction for help.

Also, is there a professor or adviser you can talk to?


I know that I'm supposed to say I came to law school to save the world, but I came for a good paying job.

I'm really not sure that I want to talk to the people here. I don't particularly trust them. The professors tend to sugar coat everything, and I don't think they have any real concept of what I might be going through (none of them were at the bottom of their classes), and the career people have been really unhelpful all year long. They're nice, but I don't feel like they're going to give me an honest answer about my job prospects.

Well, I would finish out this semester strongly, first. The fed gov't and biglaw are pretty much out of the question. I would think long and hard about what you wanted to do with a law degree. Dropping out may be the most practical thing that you could do.


I want a job paying at least $70,000. I know biglaw is out, but can I still get a job that pays about that much. Does midlaw/small-law pay that much?

If I stay the semester I'll lose this job opportunity. That's why I can't stay for OCI. If it's unlikely I'll be able to get a $70,000 job, then this job opportunity is what's best, but if I can get $70,000, then I'll stick it out.

It reads as if you have already made the decision to drop out.
What is "MVP"?


I really haven't. That's why I'm turning to TLS for help. I really want a $70,000 job (or more), but I don't know if I can get it with my grades. I know that if I went to a lower ranked school dropping out would be a no brainer, but it's hard to get honest assessment of how useful the prestige an MVP degree is. My parents think the MVP name is enough to get me that job, but I'm scared.

MVP = Michigan, Virginia, or Penn. If it really matters which one of those schools I'm out, I'll just say it, but they're peer schools so job prospects should be the same.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP,
I think you should go level with your career services people. Let them know what's going on, and say everything that you feel. Don't sugarcoat anything, and explain to them exactly why you went to law school, and what you'd like to do after law school. Don't lie about any of your motivations or hopes. you're already in the school, and they aren't going to kick you out for admitting that you went to law school for reasons that weren't completely altruistic or virtuous.

IMO (and based off my experience working in a higher education administrative office) the people at your career services office will appreciate your honesty and they'll give you a fair assessment of what you can hope to do if your situation does not improve i.e. you graduate at the bottom of your class. The people at your cso know there's plenty of transfers ready to take your spot and pay sticker to do so, so their (the people at cso) incentive to lie to you about why you should stay is not nearly as high as you might imagine. Talk to them asap. You have nothing to lose by doing so.

also, check your school's policy about returning. I know that some schools will let you leave after a year (assuming you're in good standing) and automatically get re-admitted, but the some of the same schools will not afford you the same benefit of auto-readmit if you leave before the first year is up. That should play a substantial role in your decision.

Best of luck.


I'm hoping some 2Ls and 3Ls here can give me advice so I don't have to turn to our CSO people, but I might have to. I really don't trust them to level with me.

I already found out about our schools policy for dropping out from someone else. Apparently I can take a leave of absence now and if I really want to I can restart next year at second semester. But if I leave I don't think I'd come back. My concern is job prospects, and I don't think they'll improve that much in 1 year.

I feel so bad about my grades. I worked so hard, but I someone went wrong on each of my exams. On one of my exams I got the highest grade in the class on one question, and the lowest grade in the class on the other. I feel like I've wasted a great opportunity. I hope I can salvage it, but I'm really worried about job prospects. I think they're worse than my school is letting on.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:32 am

"MVP" is NOT enough to get you a job in the current economy. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that graduating in the bottom 20% may leave you disappointed.
You need to talk with someone at your school whether you trust them or not. The first year of law school is the most difficult. The second and third years are basically returning to the last two years of undergraduate school= quite easy to do well if you do the work.

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Boba Fett
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Boba Fett » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:35 am

Well, you could do government work and make $55,000 - 60,000+. Maybe not $70,000, but definitely more than $40,000.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:38 am

[quote"Anonymous User"]

I know that I'm supposed to say I came to law school to save the world, but I came for a good paying job.

I'm really not sure that I want to talk to the people here. I don't particularly trust them. The professors tend to sugar coat everything, and I don't think they have any real concept of what I might be going through (none of them were at the bottom of their classes), and the career people have been really unhelpful all year long. They're nice, but I don't feel like they're going to give me an honest answer about my job prospects.[/quote]

Actually they usually say both of those are the worst two reasons to go to LS.

Another thought...maybe its the environment or your lack of making the most of it. I know competition can make things tough but there has to be a niche of people there for you to feel comfortable and happy and motivated? I know that's a bit lame but that stuff does make a difference.

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Mrs. Jack Donaghy
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Mrs. Jack Donaghy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:40 am

I haven't even applied to LS yet so take this with a grain of salt. I kinda have some idea what you must be going through, but not really.

It's clear that whatever decision you make will be a tough one and that you've spent some time pondering this.
Other than money, what do you want? What are you interested? If you have no interest in law, perhaps you can try to work in an industry where there are opportunities to go up the corporate ladder. Have you considered all of your options?

My recommendation is that you figure out what you are interested in and research all the available options. You wouldn't want to take a 41k job simply because you think it is one of your only options. Consider everything!

I'm rooting for you!

Anonymous User
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:46 am

Do not assume that you can do "government work" if you graduate at the bottom of your "MVP" class. At least not as a government lawyer. State judicial positions or governorship are real possibilities.

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Boba Fett
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Boba Fett » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:Do not assume that you can do "government work" if you graduate at the bottom of your "MVP" class. At least not as a government lawyer. State judicial positions or governorship are real possibilities.


You're all full of it up in the pooper. The caboose of MVP can most definitely land a job as a government lawyer. Granted, it may not be in SDNY, but beggars can't be . . .

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PDaddy
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:50 am

Boba Fett wrote:Well, you could do government work and make $55,000 - 60,000+. Maybe not $70,000, but definitely more than $40,000.


But is that worth the debt?

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Boba Fett
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Boba Fett » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:09 am

PDaddy wrote:
Boba Fett wrote:Well, you could do government work and make $55,000 - 60,000+. Maybe not $70,000, but definitely more than $40,000.


But is that worth the debt?


Well, it depends on the salary scale and how long it'll take you to reach $70,000+. Then again, if you don't like lawyering, I'd stay the hell away from any legal job, especially a mediocre-paying one.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm hoping some 2Ls and 3Ls here can give me advice so I don't have to turn to our CSO people, but I might have to. I really don't trust them to level with me.

I already found out about our schools policy for dropping out from someone else. Apparently I can take a leave of absence now and if I really want to I can restart next year at second semester.


I'm a 2L, and I had a similar problem. I'm top quarter at a T14 and struck out at 2L OCI (as did a fair number of students with better GPAs). The rank-and-file CSO advisors gave me some pretty suspect advice (the main interest seemed to be in keeping students happy and optimistic, and not in providing a realistic assessment of one's chances... for example, one of the better suggestions was that I try 3L OCI [!]), but the dean for career services gave me some more accurate information and suggestions based on my requirements and expectations. Talking to the dean for student affairs at my school also helped, and I ended up taking a one-semester leave-of-absence, which will give me another crack at 2L OCI.

The deans thought I would be able to land a job making $75,000 despite striking out in OCI, but if I were in your position I would be much more sceptical of my chances at making this. Like me, you don't sound married to the prospect of becoming a lawyer, and you probably don't want to pay $180,000 for your degree and then spend the next 15 years paying off your law school debt. If $70k is realistically your minimum starting wage, and you have other prospects, I think you should probably have a frank discussion along these lines with the most senior person in your career services office, as well as with your dean of students. At my school, I'm almost certain that the most rational decision would be to drop out now or to take a leave. Hopefully the prospects at MVP are better than at my school, but I suspect they aren't appreciably so.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:"MVP" is NOT enough to get you a job in the current economy. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that graduating in the bottom [strike]20[/strike]60% may leave you disappointed.
You need to talk with someone at your school whether you trust them or not. The first year of law school is the most difficult. The second and third years are basically returning to the last two years of undergraduate school= quite easy to do well if you do the work.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:22 am

I'm at MVPB as well. I know 2Ls here that were at the bottom of the class, and honestly it is a tough market. In a better economy it looks virtually all grads did well (as in at least got into firms of 50+ for those that chose to go into private practice, and those firms pay decently well). However, currently they are struggling to find anything. I know someone who just accepted something the other week barely even legal for his 2L summer. At this point it's unclear to me whether these people will be able to find something when things pick back up (they definitely won't at graduation with the current outlook)... A lot of people just assume that you can walk into a "shitlaw"/small firm with a t14 degree and will be entitled a job. They couldn't be further from the truth. If you actually look at the alumni base for these firms then typically are grads that went to lower ranked schools and pretty much what it comes down to is that they don't want you in their firm (because they want someone that actually wants to be there, and not someone that wants something temporarily while the economy is down, and then will try to jump ship to do something more prestigious). Also, alumni tend to be loyal to their own alma mater and t14 grads historically haven't gone to work for these shitlaw/smaller firms so it will be tough to find any alumni in these types of firms.



Anonymous User wrote:OP,
I think you should go level with your career services people. Let them know what's going on, and say everything that you feel. Don't sugarcoat anything, and explain to them exactly why you went to law school, and what you'd like to do after law school. Don't lie about any of your motivations or hopes. you're already in the school, and they aren't going to kick you out for admitting that you went to law school for reasons that weren't completely altruistic or virtuous.

IMO (and based off my experience working in a higher education administrative office) the people at your career services office will appreciate your honesty and they'll give you a fair assessment of what you can hope to do if your situation does not improve i.e. you graduate at the bottom of your class. The people at your cso know there's plenty of transfers ready to take your spot and pay sticker to do so, so their (the people at cso) incentive to lie to you about why you should stay is not nearly as high as you might imagine. Talk to them asap. You have nothing to lose by doing so.

also, check your school's policy about returning. I know that some schools will let you leave after a year (assuming you're in good standing) and automatically get re-admitted, but the some of the same schools will not afford you the same benefit of auto-readmit if you leave before the first year is up. That should play a substantial role in your decision.

Best of luck.


Dude CSO is like a bunch of cheerleaders for the school. They will NEVER tell you that you are fucked and the economical thing to do would be to drop out (even if it is true). This applies even if you go to a tier 3 law school and were at the bottom of the class. CSO will never tell you what you really need to hear.

E.g. I went in to talk to our CSO about clerkships and I brought up state trial court clerkships because I wanted a better idea of what types of options are out there leaving a state trial court. The adviser just went on about how I should apply and how it will be a great experience, etc, etc. So I basically cut her off and told her my exact situation and that it would not make sense to do a state trial court clerkship unless I get X out of it, and asked her the likelihood of getting X, and she still would not give me straight answer. She just went on rambling about how great a state trial court can be, etc, etc even though it was clearly not in line with my goals and would make 0 sense for me to do a state trial court. This is pretty much how CSO is though. They are there to help students find jobs, but they won't give you the cold, hard truth. How many 2Ls, that only want biglaw and didn't get offers, CSO told that "they are completely fucked and will not ever get biglaw?" It's the truth, but I'd bet CSO prep talking them into how they can do clerkships and get into biglaw or pretended like they have a shot through 3L OCI (even though both of those options are completely unrealistic for these people).

OP- don't take this the wrong way, and I'm not saying that you should, in fact, drop out (or not drop out), but what I am saying is don't make your decision based on what your CSO says.

shaville
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Re: Bottom of MVP... stay or drop out?

Postby shaville » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:30 am

OP,
It doesn't sound like you are a bad student, but rather that you f'd up on one question. The fact that you had the highest score in the class on the other one makes me think that you can still hang with the rest of the class if you identify why you messed up on that particular question. If law school is intellectually overwhelming, I'd say bail. But, if you just made a stupid mistake on a question, I'd say stay. Don't forget about LRAP.




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