2L can't find an internship; should I pay tuition? Forum

[notveryhappy2L]

I've been a long time reader, but never posted a message on this board. But now I am facing a situation that I don't quite know how to deal with and I've heard conflicting opinions from family members and friends, so I want to hear what you guys think.

I am currently a 2L at a Top 20 law school. My grades are above the school's median (around top 1/3). I am paying sticker price and my request for a need based scholarship earlier this semester was bluntly denied. I'd be okay with it, if I thought I could pay off the >120k of loans I'll have by the end of next year. Alas, the current outlook doesn't look very good.

For a few weeks, I have been writing and visiting the overly-staffed Career Services Office frequently, saying "I'll take ANY paid summer internship! Big firm, small firm, not a law firm, Texas, Alaska, anything goes. Please help me find something." The three advisers in the career services office I met were not very helpful. One of them advised me to network more as a solution to my problem, another one put me in touch with a company that was not looking to hire summer interns as of October, and the other one printed me a list of firms from Google and told me to contact them. When I said I was looking for a more concrete job prospect, she said that her job was to guide students through the process of finding a job, not hand them jobs. It looks like I'll be waiting tables this summer. I am not kidding.

Ironically, the dean of career services brags about the employment prospects of students at my school whenever possible, most recently on the admitted students day. He creates this unrealistic image that is completely inconsistent with the fact that a student with a good academic background and a strong motivation can't get a single summer internship. The unrealistic statements by the career services office had a lot to do with the fact that I chose to come here and reject a pretty impressive scholarship at a similarly ranked school. I was innocent enough to believe them. I can only wish that the 0L's on the admitted students day would be wiser than me.

My question is, given my inability to find a job, the little help from the career services office, and the misrepresentations that lured me to this school, should I even pay my tuition next year? One would say that I can't just blame my school for my situation and the bad economy has a lot to do with it. It's certainly right. But damn it, I feel like I was taken advantage by my school and now that they have me and my tuition, they couldn't care less about me. I am also pretty sure I won't be able to pay my insane debts after school with that seemingly futile degree.

Would love to hear your opinions.

[hubtubrub]

stick with it. You have already invested so much time. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with your application? Like blatent errors. You should really approach your career center and really express your concerns. Your top 1/3 and the mark does suck yes... but you did something wrong. You need to figure out what you did and fix it.

[notveryhappy2L]

stick with it. You have already invested so much time. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with your application? Like blatent errors. You should really approach your career center and really express your concerns. Your top 1/3 and the mark does suck yes... but you did something wrong. You need to figure out what you did and fix it.

There's no application. My resume looks great (albeit no full time work experience) and I received positive feedbacks from anyone who read my cover letter.

I will definitely complete my JD. My question is if I should pay for my 3L courses or just show up to classes and then say "stick it up your #$%" when they send me the bill-- just like they're saying to me right now.

[hubtubrub]

stick with it. You have already invested so much time. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with your application? Like blatent errors. You should really approach your career center and really express your concerns. Your top 1/3 and the mark does suck yes... but you did something wrong. You need to figure out what you did and fix it.

There's no application. My resume looks great (albeit no full time work experience) and I received positive feedbacks from anyone who read my cover letter.

I will definitely complete my JD. My question is if I should pay for my 3L courses or just show up to classes and then say "stick it up your #$%" when they send me the bill-- just like they're saying to me right now.

Do you realize how ugly your credit can get if you don't pay your 3l course bill?

also... don't take this as offensive...but have you gotten a professional to read through everything? Have you been accepted to any interviews at all?

[notveryhappy2L]

stick with it. You have already invested so much time. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with your application? Like blatent errors. You should really approach your career center and really express your concerns. Your top 1/3 and the mark does suck yes... but you did something wrong. You need to figure out what you did and fix it.

There's no application. My resume looks great (albeit no full time work experience) and I received positive feedbacks from anyone who read my cover letter.

I will definitely complete my JD. My question is if I should pay for my 3L courses or just show up to classes and then say "stick it up your #$%" when they send me the bill-- just like they're saying to me right now.

Do you realize how ugly your credit can get if you don't pay your 3l course bill?

also... don't take this as offensive...but have you gotten a professional to read through everything? Have you been accepted to any interviews at all?

Ha, yeah it wouldn't help my credit. I just really don't feel like they deserve to get additional 45k from me. 45k that I really don't have and won't be able to pay back any time soon.

Yes, my resume was reviewed by professionals. To answer your question-- no, I have never received an interview (other than with JAG, which I chose to reject) through OCI or otherwise.

[NerdmoD]

stick with it. You have already invested so much time. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with your application? Like blatent errors. You should really approach your career center and really express your concerns. Your top 1/3 and the mark does suck yes... but you did something wrong. You need to figure out what you did and fix it.

There's no application. My resume looks great (albeit no full time work experience) and I received positive feedbacks from anyone who read my cover letter.

I will definitely complete my JD. My question is if I should pay for my 3L courses or just show up to classes and then say "stick it up your #$%" when they send me the bill-- just like they're saying to me right now.

My bet is that they will prevent you from enrolling in your classes, or else withhold your degree if you fail to pay, thereby preventing you from taking the bar, becoming a lawyer, etc....I would definitely advise against that.

Part of the issue is that it is a lot harder for everyone to find jobs/internships these days, and that includes the school's career centers. I don't think their advice to you came from them being lazy or uncaring, but rather they probably are used to internships coming to them, and don't have the facilities or manpower to actively engage with and inquire at every single potential employer. It sucks, I know, but unfortunately a lot of it comes down to a more active approach, a little creativity, and dealing with a lot of rejections. But if they don't have the internship listings for you, and you can't seem to find them on job-search sites, knock on the door of every law firm in the city, make cold calls, and work at it. The first one is always the hardest.

Keep faith, and see your degree through. Just because it's hard now doesn't mean it's a useless education, and that you're going to be shut out indefinitely.

[hubtubrub]

why don't you research this summer with a professor?

[kgirl]

reading your post makes me feel like I'm reading about my own life right now. At this point in time, it matters very little what school you go to, top 20 or top 30. I'm a 2L and have been unable to land 2L summer employment and even a summer internship is a question mark. And even for an unpaid summer internship, there are tons of people waiting to be interviewed. I'm on law review at a relatively solid school and I have mostly a scientific background but none of the firms I want are hiring, either that or they tell me I don't have what they are looking for. I think it's because I don't have lots of legal experience and i think in this economy, employers don't want to take a chance on someone with no experience (they don't want to make the investment to train new people). But then how do I get experience when nobody is willing to give me any experience? It's a vicious cycle. I don't know anything about your school, your location etc; but if there are any internship opportunities, school clinics are excellent ways to build your legal experience. You sound like a pretty intellligent person and I think you will succeed, just a matter of time. Luck has a lot to do with everything in life. If you have any special background, you have to emphasize it. Good luck with everything!

[notveryhappy2L]

stick with it. You have already invested so much time. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with your application? Like blatent errors. You should really approach your career center and really express your concerns. Your top 1/3 and the mark does suck yes... but you did something wrong. You need to figure out what you did and fix it.

There's no application. My resume looks great (albeit no full time work experience) and I received positive feedbacks from anyone who read my cover letter.

I will definitely complete my JD. My question is if I should pay for my 3L courses or just show up to classes and then say "stick it up your #$%" when they send me the bill-- just like they're saying to me right now.

My bet is that they will prevent you from enrolling in your classes, or else withhold your degree if you fail to pay, thereby preventing you from taking the bar, becoming a lawyer, etc....I would definitely advise against that.

Part of the issue is that it is a lot harder for everyone to find jobs/internships these days, and that includes the school's career centers. I don't think their advice to you came from them being lazy or uncaring, but rather they probably are used to internships coming to them, and don't have the facilities or manpower to actively engage with and inquire at every single potential employer. It sucks, I know, but unfortunately a lot of it comes down to a more active approach, a little creativity, and dealing with a lot of rejections. But if they don't have the internship listings for you, and you can't seem to find them on job-search sites, knock on the door of every law firm in the city, make cold calls, and work at it. The first one is always the hardest.

Keep faith, and see your degree through. Just because it's hard now doesn't mean it's a useless education, and that you're going to be shut out indefinitely.

The career services office at my school is, by far, the wealthiest career services office I have ever seen. It is really overly staffed, they all fly around the country excessively, and have the most luxurious receptions and events I have ever seen. I think the resources given to them are really not managed properly, but that's a whole other story.

Thanks everyone for your advice so far. I have been looking pretty proactively, including sending emails to a ton of firms that were dealing with fields that interest me and contacting any alumnus or contact I had. I suppose I should stop counting on my school's career services office altogether (and I wish I could get a refund for my part of the tuition that went towards financing that office). And I'll keep looking. I am not sure it would yield results this late in the game, but I could at least say I tried my best when I give fake smiles to the people who eat at the Mexican restaurant-bar where I'll be serving chicken Quesadillas this summer...

[270910]

I don't think you really understand the purpose of a career services office. Their job, in large part, is to grease the wheels with firms, judges, agencies, etc. for the SCHOOL, not for individuals. They will give you tools, feedback, and encouragement on YOUR PERSONAL search for a career. But the idea - which is by and large successful - is to make positive contact with employers and enable students rather than actively paring students. It would be impossible for them to actual serve as de facto head hunters. It doesn't work that way at any law school.

Career services get a lot of the blame ITE because people are looking for a scapegoat. The times are tough, but you have to hustle like a crazy person. I recommend the guerilla guide to getting the legal job of your dreams, it has a lot of good info on unusual venues to explore.

You're going to have to be creative and persevere...

For the record, your petulant hypothetical tuition stunt would be a non-starter. No school will let you register for classes without a paid tuition bill, and if you show up without being registered it won't take long until the police get involved.

[Jones, Dow]

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[notveryhappy2L]

I don't think you really understand the purpose of a career services office. Their job, in large part, is to grease the wheels with firms, judges, agencies, etc. for the SCHOOL, not for individuals. They will give you tools, feedback, and encouragement on YOUR PERSONAL search for a career. But the idea - which is by and large successful - is to make positive contact with employers and enable students rather than actively paring students. It would be impossible for them to actual serve as de facto head hunters. It doesn't work that way at any law school.

Career services get a lot of the blame ITE because people are looking for a scapegoat. The times are tough, but you have to hustle like a crazy person. I recommend the guerilla guide to getting the legal job of your dreams, it has a lot of good info on unusual venues to explore.

You're going to have to be creative and persevere...

For the record, your petulant hypothetical tuition stunt would be a non-starter. No school will let you register for classes without a paid tuition bill, and if you show up without being registered it won't take long until the police get involved.

I disagree. I think there is a difference between PR services (which is maybe a part of what a law school's career services office does), career counseling (which is also maybe a part of what a career services office does) and assistance with job placement (which is, I think, the main purpose for a career services office's existence). Further, I think the CSO is committed to helping students in the school, not the entity known as the school. While I don't expect them to find me an employer, negotiate me a contract, and hand it to me to sign; I certainly expect them to be able to provide my peers and I with interviews for the same job prospects that they claim they manage to get on admitted students days.

[lostmymojo]

I don't think you really understand the purpose of a career services office. Their job, in large part, is to grease the wheels with firms, judges, agencies, etc. for the SCHOOL, not for individuals. They will give you tools, feedback, and encouragement on YOUR PERSONAL search for a career. But the idea - which is by and large successful - is to make positive contact with employers and enable students rather than actively paring students. It would be impossible for them to actual serve as de facto head hunters. It doesn't work that way at any law school.

Career services get a lot of the blame ITE because people are looking for a scapegoat. The times are tough, but you have to hustle like a crazy person. I recommend the guerilla guide to getting the legal job of your dreams, it has a lot of good info on unusual venues to explore.

You're going to have to be creative and persevere...

For the record, your petulant hypothetical tuition stunt would be a non-starter. No school will let you register for classes without a paid tuition bill, and if you show up without being registered it won't take long until the police get involved.

I disagree. I think there is a difference between PR services (which is maybe a part of what a law school's career services office does), career counseling (which is also maybe a part of what a career services office does) and assistance with job placement (which is, I think, the main purpose for a career services office's existence). Further, I think the CSO is committed to helping students in the school, not the entity known as the school. While I don't expect them to find me an employer, negotiate me a contract, and hand it to me to sign; I certainly expect them to be able to provide my peers and I with interviews for the same job prospects that they claim they manage to get on admitted students days.

I'm not aware of a single thing that our career services office did apart from setting up OCI's and providing us with a list of alumni contacts. After that the ball is in your court. I sen't out over 150 resume's. Eventually it lead to a job.

[270910]

While I don't expect them to find me an employer, negotiate me a contract, and hand it to me to sign; I certainly expect them to be able to provide my peers and I with interviews for the same job prospects that they claim they manage to get on admitted students days.

[notveryhappy2L]

I don't think you really understand the purpose of a career services office. Their job, in large part, is to grease the wheels with firms, judges, agencies, etc. for the SCHOOL, not for individuals. They will give you tools, feedback, and encouragement on YOUR PERSONAL search for a career. But the idea - which is by and large successful - is to make positive contact with employers and enable students rather than actively paring students. It would be impossible for them to actual serve as de facto head hunters. It doesn't work that way at any law school.

Career services get a lot of the blame ITE because people are looking for a scapegoat. The times are tough, but you have to hustle like a crazy person. I recommend the guerilla guide to getting the legal job of your dreams, it has a lot of good info on unusual venues to explore.

You're going to have to be creative and persevere...

For the record, your petulant hypothetical tuition stunt would be a non-starter. No school will let you register for classes without a paid tuition bill, and if you show up without being registered it won't take long until the police get involved.

I disagree. I think there is a difference between PR services (which is maybe a part of what a law school's career services office does), career counseling (which is also maybe a part of what a career services office does) and assistance with job placement (which is, I think, the main purpose for a career services office's existence). Further, I think the CSO is committed to helping students in the school, not the entity known as the school. While I don't expect them to find me an employer, negotiate me a contract, and hand it to me to sign; I certainly expect them to be able to provide my peers and I with interviews for the same job prospects that they claim they manage to get on admitted students days.

I'm not aware of a single thing that our career services office did apart from setting up OCI's and providing us with a list of alumni contacts. After that the ball is in your court. I sen't out over 150 resume's. Eventually it lead to a job.

So I am happy for you that your degree was good enough to carry you to your desired job; mine, unfortunately, isn't. I have been contacting dozens of employers, really. I wasn't able to get a single interview. Again, I don't think the career services office is the only one to blame for my situation-- I take it upon myself that I didn't retake the LSAT and got into a different school. And there sure is a lot of economic instability. What I said was, that taken as a whole, the statements that my school made which made me decide to come here were nothing short of misrepresentation ITE. I feel deceit.

Edit: typo

[lostmymojo]

I don't think you really understand the purpose of a career services office. Their job, in large part, is to grease the wheels with firms, judges, agencies, etc. for the SCHOOL, not for individuals. They will give you tools, feedback, and encouragement on YOUR PERSONAL search for a career. But the idea - which is by and large successful - is to make positive contact with employers and enable students rather than actively paring students. It would be impossible for them to actual serve as de facto head hunters. It doesn't work that way at any law school.

Career services get a lot of the blame ITE because people are looking for a scapegoat. The times are tough, but you have to hustle like a crazy person. I recommend the guerilla guide to getting the legal job of your dreams, it has a lot of good info on unusual venues to explore.

You're going to have to be creative and persevere...

For the record, your petulant hypothetical tuition stunt would be a non-starter. No school will let you register for classes without a paid tuition bill, and if you show up without being registered it won't take long until the police get involved.

I disagree. I think there is a difference between PR services (which is maybe a part of what a law school's career services office does), career counseling (which is also maybe a part of what a career services office does) and assistance with job placement (which is, I think, the main purpose for a career services office's existence). Further, I think the CSO is committed to helping students in the school, not the entity known as the school. While I don't expect them to find me an employer, negotiate me a contract, and hand it to me to sign; I certainly expect them to be able to provide my peers and I with interviews for the same job prospects that they claim they manage to get on admitted students days.

I'm not aware of a single thing that our career services office did apart from setting up OCI's and providing us with a list of alumni contacts. After that the ball is in your court. I sen't out over 150 resume's. Eventually it lead to a job.

So I am happy for you that your degree was good enough to carry you to your desired job; mine, unfortunately, isn't. I have been contacting dozens of employers, really. I wasn't able to get a single interview. Again, I don't think the career services office is the only one to blame for my situation-- I take it upon myself that I didn't retake the LSAT and got into a different school. And there sure is a lot of economic instability. What I said was, that taken as a whole, the statements that my school made which made me decide to come here were nothing short of misrepresentation ITE. I feel depict.

You misunderstand my point. I'm not attempting to chastise you for not trying harder (I'm in no position to say what you have or haven't done). Rather, I wanted you to know that your not alone. This is apparently the status quo for nearly all of us.

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[kgirl]

to tell you honestly, when I was looking for an internship; all the career services did was hook me up with some phone #s and names. A lot of people in my school are not happy about our career services; but I suppose this is the way it is for many schools.
I stopped going to the career services because for the most part, they know just about as much as you do; the stuff they send us through emails is what is already posted on the career website. It's pretty much useless. Occasionally, they might know a specific contact that you are not aware of. But you have to do lots of leg work yourself; it's very hard especially since we are all so busy with our school work writing papers and making outlines; who has the time to call up tons of employers and write 100 cover letters. But whenever you have time, you have to do these things. I am personally so tired from all of this and the struggle continues.

[Gunz353]

NETWORKING!! It really is half what you know and WHO you know! I am a 0L and I have already been networking like a fiend. Every time I tell friends, co-workers, family, etc. that I am going to law school, they often tell me about some relative or person they know at a firm or other legal position, and I keep all of that in mind and will upfront ask them to keep me in mind as well when I come calling for an interview or connection. For example:

-I have a close friend who works in the NYC Bar Association...huge connection there.
-Another friend who's uncle is a partner at Cleary Gottlieb, she has already told him about me.
-A co-worker who worked for 17 years as an executive assistant for Fried, Frank, Harris and Shriver...
-Family friends who work as executives and CEO's at Fortune 500 companies.
-Multiple friends across the nation already working in big firms.

Don't give up! Just put yourself out there every chance you get, you never know what may fall in your lap! GOOD LUCK!

[lostmymojo]

NETWORKING!! It really is half what you know and WHO you know! I am a 0L and I have already been networking like a fiend. Every time I tell friends, co-workers, family, etc. that I am going to law school, they often tell me about some relative or person they know at a firm or other legal position, and I keep all of that in mind and will upfront ask them to keep me in mind as well when I come calling for an interview or connection. For example:

-I have a close friend who works in the NYC Bar Association...huge connection there.
-Another friend who's uncle is a partner at Cleary Gottlieb, she has already told him about me.
-A co-worker who worked for 17 years as an executive assistant for Fried, Frank, Harris and Shriver...
-Family friends who work as executives and CEO's at Fortune 500 companies.
-Multiple friends across the nation already working in big firms.

Don't give up! Just put yourself out there every chance you get, you never know what may fall in your lap! GOOD LUCK!

Fairly sound advice from a 0L. I will go out on a limb and tell you that, within reason, nepotism will take you farther than your grades.

[romothesavior]

The career services office at my school is, by far, the wealthiest career services office I have ever seen. It is really overly staffed, they all fly around the country excessively, and have the most luxurious receptions and events I have ever seen. I think the resources given to them are really not managed properly, but that's a whole other story.

I'm a little worried that I might know what school you are talking about.

[notveryhappy2L]

The career services office at my school is, by far, the wealthiest career services office I have ever seen. It is really overly staffed, they all fly around the country excessively, and have the most luxurious receptions and events I have ever seen. I think the resources given to them are really not managed properly, but that's a whole other story.

I'm a little worried that I might know what school you are talking about.

Let's just say that you shouldn't worry.

Fair disclosure: I do know some people at my school with the same grades as me who got some interesting internships.

[notveryhappy2L]

I have received lots of PM's asking me what school I was attending. I prefer not to disclose for now. I hope you understand guys. What I am willing to do is to advise you over PM what school you should attend if you are debating between certain schools.

The main reason I don't disclose what school I am attending is that the year isn't over yet and there is a (small) chance that my school will help me get the kind of internship they described when I enrolled here and thereby fully meet my expectations. Alternatively, there is (again, a small) chance that my school will help me get the full time job of my dreams after graduation and I will quickly forget about the 2L summer internship saga. Second, there are people here at school who give me the impression that they do care about my difficulties with my summer internship search, and even though they are currently less than very helpful, they don't deserve to be called out on an internet discussion board.

[romothesavior]

I have received lots of PM's asking me what school I was attending. I prefer not to disclose for now. I hope you understand guys. What I am willing to do is to advise you over PM what school you should attend if you are debating between certain schools.

The main reason I don't disclose what school I am attending is that the year isn't over yet and there is a (small) chance that my school will help me get the kind of internship they described when I enrolled here and thereby fully meet my expectations. Alternatively, there is (again, a small) chance that my school will help me get the full time job of my dreams after graduation and I will quickly forget about the 2L summer internship saga. Second, there are people here at school who give me the impression that they do care about my difficulties with my summer internship search, and even though they are currently less than very helpful, they don't deserve to be called out on an internet discussion board.

I am pretty darn certain I know what school you're at, but I respect that. Good luck to you with your search.

[marshalmatt]

Flame. OP subtly mentions facts pointing to a certain school, at a time when students are deciding which schools to send their deposit. You are 1) on the waitlist at this school, 2) bitter about your rejection or 3) have some irrational dislike for the school. You're fooling nobody. Nice try.