Students lying in law school

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engineer
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Students lying in law school

Postby engineer » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:04 pm

How many of you have experienced students lying about completely ridiculous things? I mean, it's understood that everyone will lie about grades (after all, everyone on TLS is top 10% of their class at a T14), but there are some things about which lying seems so....absurd. For example, a girl in my class is lying about how far along with her brief she is. She told a trusted source that she's on her third or fourth revision, but she's parading around facebook commenting on everyone's status, saying that she hasn't even started yet. Really??

/rant

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rayiner
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:09 pm

engineer wrote:How many of you have experienced students lying about completely ridiculous things? I mean, it's understood that everyone will lie about grades (after all, everyone on TLS is top 10% of their class at a T14), but there are some things about which lying seems so....absurd. For example, a girl in my class is lying about how far along with her brief she is. She told a trusted source that she's on her third or fourth revision, but she's parading around facebook commenting on everyone's status, saying that she hasn't even started yet. Really??

/rant


Law students are terrible people.

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Unemployed
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby Unemployed » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:19 pm

Everyone at Columbia got into Harvard, but chose to come here for all sorts of reasons. Myself included. :lol:

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unknownscholar
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby unknownscholar » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:20 pm

Which statement do you think is the lie? As absurd as it is to lie about this kinda stuff, I think the reason for it would be unique to the false statement.

Ignatius J. Reilly
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby Ignatius J. Reilly » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:41 pm

It's sad, but for some reason law students lie to their classmates all the time. For example, one time during 1L I was talking with some classmates about how they spent their previous evening and one guy said he stayed at home and watched college basketball, when in fact I saw him at the library in a study group with a few other people. I would really like to know from a psychological perspective why people feel compelled to lie to their classmates about the amount of studying they do. My own guess is that people don't want to out themselves as hard studiers so that they can have an excuse, other than being dumb, if they don't get good grades. The sad part is, at least for me, I would rather have a hard worker than an intelligent slacker.

AtticusFinch
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby AtticusFinch » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:57 pm

Unemployed wrote:Everyone at Columbia got into Harvard, but chose to come here for all sorts of reasons. Myself included. :lol:


Sometimes 146,000 reasons.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby Na_Swatch » Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:41 pm

Ignatius J. Reilly wrote: My own guess is that people don't want to out themselves as hard studiers so that they can have an excuse, other than being dumb, if they don't get good grades. The sad part is, at least for me, I would rather have a hard worker than an intelligent slacker.


The largest motivations behind lying about studying or downplaying the amount of work somebody puts into something is to, paradoxically, both appear more intelligent and capable (i.e. I don't need a lot of time to finish things or get good grades) while also presenting oneself as more mainstream and average (in the sense of being "cool" or "fitting in", not trying to show too much focus on academics, and also laidback).

This behavior is extremely common throughout all levels of schooling, from Elementary to Graduate, and is especially pronounced in many people who do well academically. Seeing how TLS has lots of these types, I'm sure many people have found themselves doing this in their daily lives to a lesser extent than the examples show here. Just taking myself or acquaintances I know, presenting the image of the "intelligent slacker" achieves a much better social result than the "diligent academic." In fact, from some conversations with friends, this phenomenon might be even more pronounced in girls along the lines of increasing attractiveness by not refraining from presenting a formidable intellectual presence.

Interestingly, though, is that I would have though people at a law school would have less inclination to act in this way now that they are surrounded by much more similar peers due to the admissions process. Perhaps the years spent acting this way cause it to be ingrained at that point?

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OperaAttorney
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby OperaAttorney » Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:55 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
Ignatius J. Reilly wrote: My own guess is that people don't want to out themselves as hard studiers so that they can have an excuse, other than being dumb, if they don't get good grades. The sad part is, at least for me, I would rather have a hard worker than an intelligent slacker.


The largest motivations behind lying about studying or downplaying the amount of work somebody puts into something is to, paradoxically, both appear more intelligent and capable (i.e. I don't need a lot of time to finish things or get good grades) while also presenting oneself as more mainstream and average (in the sense of being "cool" or "fitting in", not trying to show too much focus on academics, and also laidback).

This behavior is extremely common throughout all levels of schooling, from Elementary to Graduate, and is especially pronounced in many people who do well academically. Seeing how TLS has lots of these types, I'm sure many people have found themselves doing this in their daily lives to a lesser extent than the examples show here. Just taking myself or acquaintances I know, presenting the image of the "intelligent slacker" achieves a much better social result than the "diligent academic." In fact, from some conversations with friends, this phenomenon might be even more pronounced in girls along the lines of increasing attractiveness by not refraining from presenting a formidable intellectual presence.

Interestingly, though, is that I would have though people at a law school would have less inclination to act in this way now that they are surrounded by much more similar peers due to the admissions process. Perhaps the years spent acting this way cause it to be ingrained at that point?


The law school students who lie are dishonest assholes. It's really that simple.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby Na_Swatch » Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:59 pm

OperaAttorney wrote:The law school students who lie are dishonest assholes. It's really that simple.


Hmm, but where do you draw the line?

I mean saying you were chilling at home watching the NCAA tourney when you were actually in the library poring over books is straight up lying, but what about saying "I pulled that paper off at the last sec" when you just meant you spent 7 hours of hard work on it instead of the 15 hours you wanted to do?

rando
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby rando » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:03 pm

OperaAttorney wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
Ignatius J. Reilly wrote: My own guess is that people don't want to out themselves as hard studiers so that they can have an excuse, other than being dumb, if they don't get good grades. The sad part is, at least for me, I would rather have a hard worker than an intelligent slacker.


The largest motivations behind lying about studying or downplaying the amount of work somebody puts into something is to, paradoxically, both appear more intelligent and capable (i.e. I don't need a lot of time to finish things or get good grades) while also presenting oneself as more mainstream and average (in the sense of being "cool" or "fitting in", not trying to show too much focus on academics, and also laidback).

This behavior is extremely common throughout all levels of schooling, from Elementary to Graduate, and is especially pronounced in many people who do well academically. Seeing how TLS has lots of these types, I'm sure many people have found themselves doing this in their daily lives to a lesser extent than the examples show here. Just taking myself or acquaintances I know, presenting the image of the "intelligent slacker" achieves a much better social result than the "diligent academic." In fact, from some conversations with friends, this phenomenon might be even more pronounced in girls along the lines of increasing attractiveness by not refraining from presenting a formidable intellectual presence.

Interestingly, though, is that I would have though people at a law school would have less inclination to act in this way now that they are surrounded by much more similar peers due to the admissions process. Perhaps the years spent acting this way cause it to be ingrained at that point?


The law school students who lie are dishonest assholes. It's really that simple.


judger

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PDaddy
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby PDaddy » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:15 pm

The most famous lies every law student (and every lawyer :roll:) tells concerns their LSAT scores and the schools they were admitted to. Many will claim they scored 170 after taking the test "cold", when they actually prepped for six months to a year...with a private tutor...after having finished a full prep course, and only scored 162. Everybody got admitted to much higher ranked schools but chose not to go to them b/c of debt. :roll: On the other hand, that may be true in many cases these days. And I just love the people who apply to just seven schools and get into all of them...when they really applied to 20 schools and got into four or five.

But I think it's a phenominon that permeates every aspect of our society. The less work you claim to do, the more gifted you appear to be. This is true even in sports, where many athletes will not admit to being in the weightroom as much as they are. Every basketball player dunked in the seventh grade. Every sprinter ran his first sub-11 seconds in the 100M as a freshman in h.s.

It happens in politics, too. Even Jesse Jackson bragged that he had essentially one conversation with a diplomat and got those hostages released. We all know that was untrue. And let's not forget Hillary Clinton claiming she dodged live gunfire on a trip to the middle east. At the height of her modeling career, Tyra Banks bragged that she could eat whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted, NOT exercise, and stay thin. :roll: That may or may not have been true, but, even if it was, did she have to let everyone know it?

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beesknees
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby beesknees » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:33 pm

PDaddy wrote:The most famous lies every law student (and every lawyer :roll:) tells concerns their LSAT scores and the schools they were admitted to. Many will claim they took the test "cold" when, in fact, they prepped for six months.

But I think it's a phenominon that permeates every aspect of our society. The less work you claim to do, the brighter you appear to be. This is true even in sports, where many athletes will not admit to being in the weightroom as much as they are. Every basketball player dunked in the seventh grade. Every sprinter ran his first sub-11 second in the 100M as a freshman in h.s. Even Jesse Jackson bragged that he had essentially one conversation with a diplomat and got those hostages released. We all know that was untrue. At the height of her modeling career, Tyra Banks bragged that she could eat whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted, and stay thin. Ha! :roll:


Seriously, why are we so disinclined to say we worked hard to achieve a goal? This happened to me in high school and college too; an inordinate amount of people would claim things like writing an A paper at 5 am after a night of delirious drinking before it was due at 8 am or didn't even know what the textbook looked like and still got A's. Now, I pulled off a few crap shots myself, but the stories got more and more crazy as time went on because people had to one-up each other on how lazy and successful they could be.

Its far more socially acceptable to appear to be effortlessly successful than a successful workhorse. Seems to be the American ideal - lucky, lazy, and immensely successful.

rando
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby rando » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:37 pm

beesknees wrote:
PDaddy wrote:The most famous lies every law student (and every lawyer :roll:) tells concerns their LSAT scores and the schools they were admitted to. Many will claim they took the test "cold" when, in fact, they prepped for six months.

But I think it's a phenominon that permeates every aspect of our society. The less work you claim to do, the brighter you appear to be. This is true even in sports, where many athletes will not admit to being in the weightroom as much as they are. Every basketball player dunked in the seventh grade. Every sprinter ran his first sub-11 second in the 100M as a freshman in h.s. Even Jesse Jackson bragged that he had essentially one conversation with a diplomat and got those hostages released. We all know that was untrue. At the height of her modeling career, Tyra Banks bragged that she could eat whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted, and stay thin. Ha! :roll:


Seriously, why are we so disinclined to say we worked hard to achieve a goal? This happened to me in high school and college too; an inordinate amount of people would claim things like writing an A paper at 5 am after a night of delirious drinking before it was due at 8 am or didn't even know what the textbook looked like and still got A's. Now, I pulled off a few crap shots myself, but the stories got more and more crazy as time went on because people had to one-up each other on how lazy and successful they could be.

Its far more socially acceptable to appear to be effortlessly successful than a successful workhorse. Seems to be the American ideal - lucky, lazy, and immensely successful.


To your peers - no one wants to be the gunner. Except the gunner, of course.
To your bosses - you are much better off playing the suck up card and looking like you are the hardest worker around.

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PSLaplace
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby PSLaplace » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:41 pm

The irony of it all is that, to their non-law school friends, law students will greatly exaggerate their workload and the difficulty of law school.

engineer
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby engineer » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:41 pm

beesknees wrote:Seriously, why are we so disinclined to say we worked hard to achieve a goal? This happened to me in high school and college too; an inordinate amount of people would claim things like writing an A paper at 5 am after a night of delirious drinking before it was due at 8 am or didn't even know what the textbook looked like and still got A's. Now, I pulled off a few crap shots myself, but the stories got more and more crazy as time went on because people had to one-up each other on how lazy and successful they could be.

Its far more socially acceptable to appear to be effortlessly successful than a successful workhorse. Seems to be the American ideal - lucky, lazy, and immensely successful.


That's what I'm thinking...it seems like mainstream media glorifies the people who've done things like that. They try to make Bill Gates out to be this guy who dropped out of Harvard on whim to start a company, when that wasn't at all the case. Same thing with the Beatles--they were overnight sensations. The book "Outliers" really put this into perspective for me...in order to become one of these prodigies, it takes a LOT of work. I don't understand why the "overnight sensation" mentality is so revered...maybe it's just that we don't want to acknowledge or accept our own laziness?

Ignatius J. Reilly
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby Ignatius J. Reilly » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:10 pm

I guess I am just different. I am 3L now, but I got real good grades as a 1L and I have no problem saying that was because I studied a lot. It doesn't bother me to think that maybe there were smarter people than me who got worse grades. Why should that matter? Shouldn't you be judged by what you accomplish and not what you could potentially accomplish? And I agree with the poster who said this phenomenon of lying about how hard you work pertains to other aspects of life as well. I was a fairly successful high school athlete, and I am darn sure it was not because I am athletically talented. I worked my butt off getting up in the morning before school to life weights and run and staying after practice. I have no problem admitting that my success was mostly due to the work I put in, and that if I hadn't put in that work, I would have been merely average. However, when I would go to events and off season camps and see some of the other athletes from different schools everybody would always talk about how they slacked off and how wasted they were the night before a particular competition--you know what I am saying. I always wondered if that stuff was true. I am betting it wasn't. I just would have thought that by the time I got to law school that immaturity would go away and people would not be ashamed to say they had to work hard to accomplish something. Guess not.

And another thing I often wonder, how is it that everybody who hasn't gone to law school has this idea that it is so rigorous when most of the people in law school always brag to their classmates about how easy everything is and how they don't have to put in any effort to do well? Do people say one thing to their classmates and another to others?

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mac.empress
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Re: Students lying in law school

Postby mac.empress » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:22 pm

Ignatius J. Reilly wrote:
And another thing I often wonder, how is it that everybody who hasn't gone to law school has this idea that it is so rigorous when most of the people in law school always brag to their classmates about how easy everything is and how they don't have to put in any effort to do well? Do people say one thing to their classmates and another to others?


That's deep...

I need an answer too.

eternallearner
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Re: Students lying in lawl skool

Postby eternallearner » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:29 pm

Good thing I found this thread. It reminded me to not romanticize the legal profession.

Reading this thread brought up a lot of memories from those college days to graduate school.

Observation: Classmates would make fun of me for studying harder than them.
Interpretation: They want me to study less so that I do not hurt the curve.

Observation: They would tell me that they are not studying or have not even cracked open the book.
Interpretation: Once again, the curve is making people behave irrationally.

Observation: They tell me that they do not go TA's office hours. "Those TA's office hours are useless."
Interpretation: Yeah right! They are the first one in the office and the last ones to leave. Once again, I blame the curve.

It got so bad with this one particular classmate, I had to invert everything she said. Those were the days.

But on the flip side, I guess the need to sound intelligent (I don't need to study as much as you do) is needed to fulfill certain deficiencies in one's self esteem.

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A'nold
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Re: Students lying in lawl skool

Postby A'nold » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:31 pm

[quote="Ignatius J. Reilly"]It's sad, but for some reason law students lie to their classmates all the time. For example, one time during 1L I was talking with some classmates about how they spent their previous evening and one guy said he stayed at home and watched college basketball, when in fact I saw him at the library in a study group with a few other people. I would really like to know from a psychological perspective why people feel compelled to lie to their classmates about the amount of studying they do. My own guess is that people don't want to out themselves as hard studiers so that they can have an excuse, other than being dumb, if they don't get good grades. The sad part is, at least for me, I would rather have a hard worker than an intelligent slacker.[/quote]

:cry:




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