Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

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ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:30 pm

When people say this is NEVER a good idea, they mean it. It's also credited that, depending on your Career Services office, there may be very serious consequences for doing it.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:10 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:This thread is why you ask the judge during the interview about possibly splitting or ditching if a paying offer comes up.


LOL


I should have clarified that this is something you bring up after you've received the offer during the interview.


Oh, ok. Big lol retracted, though I wouldn't ask about ditching in any circumstance. Splitting is different.

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thedogship
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby thedogship » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:31 pm

I think it's fine to turn down a judge's offer if you are interviewing with multiple judges and you've made that known to the judge and his/her clerks at the time of interviewing. As long as you are up front, it won't come as a rude surprise to them if they give you an offer and you say "thanks, but no thanks. I've decided to go with a different judge."

However, if you accept an offer from a judge, you are not to then later try to get out of the acceptance. That judge has likely turned away a number of other candidates because he/she gave you that offer. A paid job is not a good reason. Yes, law students are fungible, but judges place great emphasis on honor, keeping one's word, and integrity. Immature and foolish move to back out on a judge whose offer you've already accepted.

Esc
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby Esc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:11 am

thedogship wrote:I think it's fine to turn down a judge's offer if you are interviewing with multiple judges and you've made that known to the judge and his/her clerks at the time of interviewing. As long as you are up front, it won't come as a rude surprise to them if they give you an offer and you say "thanks, but no thanks. I've decided to go with a different judge."

However, if you accept an offer from a judge, you are not to then later try to get out of the acceptance. That judge has likely turned away a number of other candidates because he/she gave you that offer. A paid job is not a good reason. Yes, law students are fungible, but judges place great emphasis on honor, keeping one's word, and integrity. Immature and foolish move to back out on a judge whose offer you've already accepted.


This is not exactly correct. You aren't allowed to turn down a judge unless you've already accepted another position elsewhere. You take the first offer you are given, and you inform the later offers that you already accepted a position with another judge.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:27 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:This thread is why you ask the judge during the interview about possibly splitting or ditching if a paying offer comes up.


LOL


I should have clarified that this is something you bring up after you've received the offer during the interview.


"Dear Judge XYZ,

Thank you very much for the offer in your chambers this summer. I am willing to accept your offer only if you are okay with me ditching this position and going with something paid that doesn't suck as much, assuming I get a paid offer prior to beginning employment with you this summer. Additionally, after I accept this offer, I will continue to pursue a paid position and make every attempt to do something more prestigious then working for you because you are merely a worthless Magistrate Judge. Please reply to this email indicating that you agree with the preceding conditions so that I may reach a decision.

Sincerely,

JSUVA2012"

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RVP11
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:28 am

Yeah, not at all how it should be done.

Post-interview and after accepting the offer, it's not that hard to ask "how do you feel about splitting?" or "I have yet to interview with XYZ firm, may I ask for time to consider all my options?". Maybe I just interviewed with very kind judges in a smallish market. This didn't incur the wrath of any judge with whom I interviewed. I mentioned this, either before and after the offer, in every single interview, and I never got a negative response.

People understand that you are a poor law student and would prefer some $$$ if that becomes available. The reason judges are annoyed if you renege at a later date is because they're probably turning people down in the meantime and he now has to go back to scheduling interviews again; their feelings are not hurt by some 1L interviewee asking questions.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:04 am

Magistrate Judges can & do become District Court Judges. Magistrate Judges socialize with other judges. Law firms like to hire lawyers with judicial clerkship experience. Law firms like to hire lawyers with good relationships with judges. Judges, like elephants, never forget. A judge can make a lawyer's life miserable.
Common sense & trustworthiness are important qualities for an attorney. As a first move in the legal world, it is not wise to demonstrate that your word is worthless & that you lack common sense.
I would like to share more insights gained from experience but your question stirs memories of lines spoken by Jack Nicholson in the movie "A Few Good Men":
"The truth! You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!"
The reality is that slighting or offending any member of a judge's staff can make a lawyer's professional life unpleasant. And it is difficult for one inexperienced in the legal world to appreciate how small minded staffers can be. The most sincere butt kissings that I have ever seen were performed by senior partners of major law firms & a couple of state attorneys general behavior toward low ranking judges & their staff members.

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WhiskeyGuy
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby WhiskeyGuy » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:05 pm

If you give someone your word, keep it.

rando
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby rando » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:36 pm

Esc wrote:
This is not exactly correct. You aren't allowed to turn down a judge unless you've already accepted another position elsewhere. You take the first offer you are given, and you inform the later offers that you already accepted a position with another judge.


Is this how it works for internships as well? I know that is protocol for clerkships, but I would think it would be different for 1L job search.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:43 pm

Fuck's sake. This isn't hard, folks.

When you accept a job, you have accepted a job. You stop interviewing other places. You stop sending out applications. You notify people and organizations that you are no longer available. THE END. This is not complicated.

If the place that hires you is OK with you splitting, then by all means, continue interviewing--as long as you are up-front that you are looking to split.

rando
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby rando » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:02 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Fuck's sake. This isn't hard, folks.

When you accept a job, you have accepted a job. You stop interviewing other places. You stop sending out applications. You notify people and organizations that you are no longer available. THE END. This is not complicated.


I'm not sure what the poster's circumstances are, and I agree, once you ACCEPT you are bound. But it does get awkward when you are waiting in limbo for offers and you have interviewed at multiple places and have different response deadlines. This problem would presumably be multiplied by having to accept on the spot to a judge but having your other first choice offers in limbo.

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steve_nash
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby steve_nash » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:11 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Fuck's sake. This isn't hard, folks.

When you accept a job, you have accepted a job. You stop interviewing other places. You stop sending out applications. You notify people and organizations that you are no longer available. THE END. This is not complicated.

If the place that hires you is OK with you splitting, then by all means, continue interviewing--as long as you are up-front that you are looking to split.


Yup. I don't view this as an issue -- you accepted, end of story. I had a somewhat analogous situation my 1L summer and didn't renege (although some students told me I was an idiot not to). Turns out my 1L summer employer has been incredibly helpful, and I'm very glad I didn't burn that bridge.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:01 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:Yeah, not at all how it should be done.

Post-interview and after accepting the offer, it's not that hard to ask "how do you feel about splitting?" or "I have yet to interview with XYZ firm, may I ask for time to consider all my options?". Maybe I just interviewed with very kind judges in a smallish market. This didn't incur the wrath of any judge with whom I interviewed. I mentioned this, either before and after the offer, in every single interview, and I never got a negative response.

People understand that you are a poor law student and would prefer some $$$ if that becomes available. The reason judges are annoyed if you renege at a later date is because they're probably turning people down in the meantime and he now has to go back to scheduling interviews again; their feelings are not hurt by some 1L interviewee asking questions.


Asking to split or asking for more time to make a decision is fine, but actually asking whether if the judge is okay with you "ditching" your acceptance at a later time (i.e. after you accepted) if a paid position comes around is another thing altogether.

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smov_operator
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby smov_operator » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:15 pm

Esc wrote:
thedogship wrote:I think it's fine to turn down a judge's offer if you are interviewing with multiple judges and you've made that known to the judge and his/her clerks at the time of interviewing. As long as you are up front, it won't come as a rude surprise to them if they give you an offer and you say "thanks, but no thanks. I've decided to go with a different judge."

However, if you accept an offer from a judge, you are not to then later try to get out of the acceptance. That judge has likely turned away a number of other candidates because he/she gave you that offer. A paid job is not a good reason. Yes, law students are fungible, but judges place great emphasis on honor, keeping one's word, and integrity. Immature and foolish move to back out on a judge whose offer you've already accepted.


This is not exactly correct. You aren't allowed to turn down a judge unless you've already accepted another position elsewhere. You take the first offer you are given, and you inform the later offers that you already accepted a position with another judge.


Actually, I think that's wrong. There's no moral obligation to automatically accept the first job you are offered. It would be perfectly okay to ask a judge for a little more time to weigh your options, although you may not get it. If you aren't sure you want the job, then DON'T ACCEPT. Ask for more time to decide or whatever. Barring a personal calamity, i.e. your parents died and you're the sole guardian of your younger siblings, an acceptance with of a clerkship is usually final. Just roll with it.

Esc
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby Esc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:23 pm

smov_operator wrote:
Esc wrote:
thedogship wrote:I think it's fine to turn down a judge's offer if you are interviewing with multiple judges and you've made that known to the judge and his/her clerks at the time of interviewing. As long as you are up front, it won't come as a rude surprise to them if they give you an offer and you say "thanks, but no thanks. I've decided to go with a different judge."

However, if you accept an offer from a judge, you are not to then later try to get out of the acceptance. That judge has likely turned away a number of other candidates because he/she gave you that offer. A paid job is not a good reason. Yes, law students are fungible, but judges place great emphasis on honor, keeping one's word, and integrity. Immature and foolish move to back out on a judge whose offer you've already accepted.


This is not exactly correct. You aren't allowed to turn down a judge unless you've already accepted another position elsewhere. You take the first offer you are given, and you inform the later offers that you already accepted a position with another judge.


Actually, I think that's wrong. There's no moral obligation to automatically accept the first job you are offered. It would be perfectly okay to ask a judge for a little more time to weigh your options, although you may not get it. If you aren't sure you want the job, then DON'T ACCEPT. Ask for more time to decide or whatever. Barring a personal calamity, i.e. your parents died and you're the sole guardian of your younger siblings, an acceptance with of a clerkship is usually final. Just roll with it.


No. If a judge offers, you must accept, and immediately. The only way you can turn a judge down is if you have already accepted another position.

rando
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby rando » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:24 pm

smov_operator wrote:
Esc wrote:
thedogship wrote:I think it's fine to turn down a judge's offer if you are interviewing with multiple judges and you've made that known to the judge and his/her clerks at the time of interviewing. As long as you are up front, it won't come as a rude surprise to them if they give you an offer and you say "thanks, but no thanks. I've decided to go with a different judge."

However, if you accept an offer from a judge, you are not to then later try to get out of the acceptance. That judge has likely turned away a number of other candidates because he/she gave you that offer. A paid job is not a good reason. Yes, law students are fungible, but judges place great emphasis on honor, keeping one's word, and integrity. Immature and foolish move to back out on a judge whose offer you've already accepted.


This is not exactly correct. You aren't allowed to turn down a judge unless you've already accepted another position elsewhere. You take the first offer you are given, and you inform the later offers that you already accepted a position with another judge.


Actually, I think that's wrong. There's no moral obligation to automatically accept the first job you are offered. It would be perfectly okay to ask a judge for a little more time to weigh your options, although you may not get it. If you aren't sure you want the job, then DON'T ACCEPT. Ask for more time to decide or whatever. Barring a personal calamity, i.e. your parents died and you're the sole guardian of your younger siblings, an acceptance with of a clerkship is usually final. Just roll with it.


Judges are a bit different. Whether it applies to 1L internships or not, I don't know. But it is taboo to decline a judges offer if he makes you a clerkship offer on the spot.

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smov_operator
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby smov_operator » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:30 pm

rando wrote:
smov_operator wrote:
Esc wrote:
thedogship wrote:I think it's fine to turn down a judge's offer if you are interviewing with multiple judges and you've made that known to the judge and his/her clerks at the time of interviewing. As long as you are up front, it won't come as a rude surprise to them if they give you an offer and you say "thanks, but no thanks. I've decided to go with a different judge."

However, if you accept an offer from a judge, you are not to then later try to get out of the acceptance. That judge has likely turned away a number of other candidates because he/she gave you that offer. A paid job is not a good reason. Yes, law students are fungible, but judges place great emphasis on honor, keeping one's word, and integrity. Immature and foolish move to back out on a judge whose offer you've already accepted.


This is not exactly correct. You aren't allowed to turn down a judge unless you've already accepted another position elsewhere. You take the first offer you are given, and you inform the later offers that you already accepted a position with another judge.


Actually, I think that's wrong. There's no moral obligation to automatically accept the first job you are offered. It would be perfectly okay to ask a judge for a little more time to weigh your options, although you may not get it. If you aren't sure you want the job, then DON'T ACCEPT. Ask for more time to decide or whatever. Barring a personal calamity, i.e. your parents died and you're the sole guardian of your younger siblings, an acceptance with of a clerkship is usually final. Just roll with it.


Judges are a bit different. Whether it applies to 1L internships or not, I don't know. But it is taboo to decline a judges offer if he makes you a clerkship offer on the spot.


I agree that having to turn down a judge is not an ideal situation to be in. But, while awkward, certainly it's more acceptable than reneging on an offer. That's why they say apply only where you are willing to go.

Esc
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby Esc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:51 pm

smov_operator wrote:I agree that having to turn down a judge is not an ideal situation to be in. But, while awkward, certainly it's more acceptable than reneging on an offer. That's why they say apply only where you are willing to go.


Exposing your genitals in the classroom is certainly more acceptable than first exposing your genitals and then jerking off, but both courses of action will get you arrested. :|

You don't turn a judge's offer down unless you have previously accepted another offer. End of story.

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smov_operator
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby smov_operator » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:01 pm

Esc wrote:
smov_operator wrote:I agree that having to turn down a judge is not an ideal situation to be in. But, while awkward, certainly it's more acceptable than reneging on an offer. That's why they say apply only where you are willing to go.


Exposing your genitals in the classroom is certainly more acceptable than first exposing your genitals and then jerking off, but both courses of action will get you arrested. :|

You don't turn a judge's offer down unless you have previously accepted another offer. End of story.


In Law School Confidential, 366-367, author Robert Miller details the appropriate way to go about delaying or declining a judge's offer. It can be done. You just have to understand how to do it.

Feel free to educate yourself. End of story.

Esc
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby Esc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 pm

smov_operator wrote:
Esc wrote:
smov_operator wrote:I agree that having to turn down a judge is not an ideal situation to be in. But, while awkward, certainly it's more acceptable than reneging on an offer. That's why they say apply only where you are willing to go.


Exposing your genitals in the classroom is certainly more acceptable than first exposing your genitals and then jerking off, but both courses of action will get you arrested. :|

You don't turn a judge's offer down unless you have previously accepted another offer. End of story.


In Law School Confidential, 366-367, author Robert Miller details the appropriate way to go about delaying or declining a judge's offer. It can be done. You just have to understand how to do it.

Feel free to educate yourself. End of story.


You sound like the type of person who would trust a "natural cures" book from the grocery store rather than the professional advice of a trained M.D. :|

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smov_operator
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby smov_operator » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:16 pm

Esc wrote:
smov_operator wrote:
Esc wrote:
smov_operator wrote:I agree that having to turn down a judge is not an ideal situation to be in. But, while awkward, certainly it's more acceptable than reneging on an offer. That's why they say apply only where you are willing to go.


Exposing your genitals in the classroom is certainly more acceptable than first exposing your genitals and then jerking off, but both courses of action will get you arrested. :|

You don't turn a judge's offer down unless you have previously accepted another offer. End of story.


In Law School Confidential, 366-367, author Robert Miller details the appropriate way to go about delaying or declining a judge's offer. It can be done. You just have to understand how to do it.

Feel free to educate yourself. End of story.


You sound like the type of person who would trust a "natural cures" book from the grocery store rather than the professional advice of a trained M.D. :|



If you, random tls person, are the "trained M.D." and Robert Miller, Yale UG, and Penn law graduate, and former clerk, is the "natural cures" book, then you're absolutely right.

legends159
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby legends159 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:22 pm

smov_operator wrote:
If you, random tls person, are the "trained M.D." and Robert Miller, Yale UG, and Penn law graduate, and former clerk, is the "natural cures" book, then you're absolutely right.


See Esc you shouldn't have turned down HLS, cause then your advice would get more street cred.

Esc
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby Esc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:28 pm

Maybe so, but I'm beginning to suspect that 0Ls who post authoritative statements in the Forum for Law School Students are simply beyond help.

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smov_operator
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby smov_operator » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:42 pm

Esc wrote:Maybe so, but I'm beginning to suspect that 0Ls who post authoritative statements in the Forum for Law School Students are simply beyond help.


That may be true :mrgreen: But, 1Ls making erroneous "End of Story" statements can't be far behind ...

Esc
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Re: Reneging on Federal District Judicial Internship?

Postby Esc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:56 pm

Surrrrre. I can tell you'll go far with your handy-dandy little guidebook, and your flipping off judges and all.




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