Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:44 pm

adh07d wrote:This thread went exactly the way I figured it would. Maybe some of us are sadistic and want to read through the E&E's for pleasure? Why not just humor us gunners an answer instead of repeating something the OP has heard a thousand times. If it turns out to be a waste of time and even hurtful to our 1L then that's our mistake to be made and we've gotten fair warning, so why not play along and maybe try and answer what the OP was asking.

WonderCat wrote: As far as preparing for law school - I say go for it. I read a bunch of bullshit online about enjoying my last remaining summer, not studying, blah, blah, blah. One hour of reading a day would have given me an excellent foundation in the core classes. Don't obsess over what study guides to buy - they're all pretty good - just pick up some used E&E's. You seriously don't need the latest editions. Really. Truly.


Arrow wrote:III. 0L Prep (Summer before 1L)
0L prepping is highly controversial and it is hard to tell whether it truly helps. The E&E’s took the longest time to read, but gave me a solid background and introduction to thinking about the typical questions that come up. The number 1 ranked student at my school last year read all 6 hornbooks as a 0L, but I personally felt reading the E&E’s were a better introduction.

I read every word in every book listed above from beginning to end. I read Law School Confidential first, then Planet Law School, then did 3 E&E’s (started with the Glannons Torts/Civ Pro, which were the best of the series), then read Getting to Maybe, then another 3 E&E’s, followed by Delaneys, and finally LEEWS right before school started.

Did I enjoy my summer? Totally. The material was generally super interesting, and I spent about 6-10 hours reading it everyday, planning it out to make sure I would be able to finish everything. Okay I am lying, I wasted my entire summer since I did not travel the world and party every night (like some of you claimed to have done).


Out of all the law students on TLS you found two that believe prepping is useful. How many semesters in was the first poster? Regardless, I bet she has a different opinion today. As for Arrow, that one dude was such a genius, does not mean you are. If you are like us mortals, you won't be able to truly comprehend the material until your professor introduces it. Even if you are superhuman, you won't know which portions of the material are important to your professor.

rando
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby rando » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:07 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
(This message brought to you by a top 5% student.)


Since OP thinks bringing in anecdotal evidence of people who have been successful in spite of OL prep... Don't do it. Brought to you by another top 5% student.

ps - disco's sentiment is very well taken. Well written and obviously thought out. You want to do something that will help your career? The only thing that I think could help your career as a 0L is to take a writing class or read a Brian Garner book. Even that is bordering on ridiculous when read out of context.

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patrickd139
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:16 pm

rando wrote:
Since OP thinks bringing in anecdotal evidence of people who have been successful in spite of OL prep... Don't do it. Brought to you by another top 5% student.

Haha...truth.

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A'nold
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby A'nold » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:03 pm

This thread could make for an interesting visualization on how many top students on here say 0L prep is worthless. We could all just say "I" or something and there'd be like 20 students in a row with no pro 0L prep advocates.

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AlasLavinia
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby AlasLavinia » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:30 am

Another top 5% student weighing in. Here's what I did:
I went to Paris for a month and drank gallons of red wine, toured museums.
I worked at a coffee shop.
I read about 40 novels. (Novels are my X-box. Be sure you get your fill of pleasurable activity.)
Right before classes started, I went to see my family for a week. We went to the beach, ate tons of food and drank more gallons of wine. When I started classes, I was fat and detoxing.

Nothing substantive. Unless you count reading Dostoevsky and William Godwin.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:44 pm

A'nold wrote:This thread could make for an interesting visualization on how many top students on here say 0L prep is worthless. We could all just say "I" or something and there'd be like 20 students in a row with no pro 0L prep advocates.

Aye.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:48 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
A'nold wrote:This thread could make for an interesting visualization on how many top students on here say 0L prep is worthless. We could all just say "I" or something and there'd be like 20 students in a row with no pro 0L prep advocates.

Aye.

Eye and, preempting Corsair, arrrg.

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RVP11
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby RVP11 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:49 pm

Spent my summer getting tan and fat at the beach, only working 30 hours a week, and catching up on good movies that passed me by in undergrad.

Thought prepping was useless. I read GTM and didn't even find that particularly helpful.

Got good grades.

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patrickd139
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby patrickd139 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:14 pm

mikeytwoshoes wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
A'nold wrote:This thread could make for an interesting visualization on how many top students on here say 0L prep is worthless. We could all just say "I" or something and there'd be like 20 students in a row with no pro 0L prep advocates.

Aye.

Eye and, preempting Corsair, arrrg.


Aye.

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apper123
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby apper123 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:19 pm

If it goes any further OP, I also spent the first month+ of my first semester doing nothing more than the minimum.

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TTT-LS
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby TTT-LS » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:46 pm

,
Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

junelsatonmonday
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby junelsatonmonday » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:12 pm

MPVB 1L here. honestly everybody is right - chill out the summer before so you can come into law school totally refreshed and ready to rock it. if you read ahead you wont comprehend the material in any meaningful way. i went backpacking around southeast asia for 10 weeks and it was the best thing i ever did in my life. my 1st semester grades turned out very good.

as everyone else has said, the best way to prepare is to relax and dont think about law school to the extent that that's even possible. and i know it's not, but try. you will have 3 years of law school to think about law school

honestly if you really wanna prepare, by far the best way to do it is to talk to the law students and lawyers (especially recent law school grads) that you know. ask them about what to expect, and how to excel. they've been through it, and they'll be more than happy to help you out, give you some perspective, and tell you what they've learned. everyone has a different system and you'll get different advice but it's helpful to hear from a lot of people.

but as far as learning the law before you get to school...trust me, you're not meaningfully equipped to handle it until you have the benefit of being in the classroom. that's simply a function of the fact that the law is a dense canon and the first few weeks of law school intruction will really teach you how to evaluate case and rules and put them together coherently in your head. i now look back and realize that during those first few weeks the professors were pretty much holding our hands walking us through everything, even though it sure didnt seem like it at the time.

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A'nold
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby A'nold » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:29 pm

apper123 wrote:If it goes any further OP, I also spent the first month+ of my first semester doing nothing more than the minimum.


Aye.

Also, this is what I did as well during the first month and a half or so, though I think I went through the LEEWS CD's and browsed GTM a little. I was not reading E&E's and outlining and crap like that until much later in the semester.

Danteshek
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby Danteshek » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:33 pm

Read "A Civil Action" if you want to get excited about the law. And no, the movie won't do.

acdisagod
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby acdisagod » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:41 pm

How is learning some basic tort law hurtful? What is wrong with learning the basics of negligence, assault, and res ipsa loquitur from an E&E?

Right now I'm a second semester senior who does zero school work. I read an E&E for a half an hour to an hour per night and get about a chapter per day done.

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A'nold
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby A'nold » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:28 pm

acdisagod wrote:How is learning some basic tort law hurtful? What is wrong with learning the basics of negligence, assault, and res ipsa loquitur from an E&E?

Right now I'm a second semester senior who does zero school work. I read an E&E for a half an hour to an hour per night and get about a chapter per day done.



O.k., b/c of this compelling post, I take everything back that I've said in this thread. :roll:

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RVP11
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby RVP11 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:01 pm

acdisagod wrote:How is learning some basic tort law hurtful? What is wrong with learning the basics of negligence, assault, and res ipsa loquitur from an E&E?

Right now I'm a second semester senior who does zero school work. I read an E&E for a half an hour to an hour per night and get about a chapter per day done.


Imagine this scenario:

Master saxophonists tell you that buying and tooting around with a sax before you take any lessons is detrimental at worst, and a waste of time at best. You then go out and buy a saxophone and start tooting around. What's wrong with that, right?

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TTT-LS
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby TTT-LS » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:49 pm

,
Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

acdisagod
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby acdisagod » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:55 pm

It seems it would only hurt me if I didn't go to class or listen to the professor. Though I guess it is possible that I would forget that he taught it differently.

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Fast_Fingers
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby Fast_Fingers » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:10 pm

Well, I'm reading Getting to Maybe and a few Delaney books (from the Complete 0L guide to 1L topic), then I'll head off to Thailand for a month. Best of both worlds.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:34 pm

acdisagod wrote:It seems it would only hurt me if I didn't go to class or listen to the professor. Though I guess it is possible that I would forget that he taught it differently.

You're basically adding a new element to your studying: Having to remember where you learned what. This isn't a good thing, you're going to have enough to worry about as it is.

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RVP11
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby RVP11 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:31 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
acdisagod wrote:It seems it would only hurt me if I didn't go to class or listen to the professor. Though I guess it is possible that I would forget that he taught it differently.

You're basically adding a new element to your studying: Having to remember where you learned what. This isn't a good thing, you're going to have enough to worry about as it is.


I do this with supplements all the time. It's not that hard to parse when you're making your outline, and if it's not on your outline it shouldn't be affecting your analysis on the exam.

I think the bigger danger is the false sense of confidence you gain from thinking you know something when you really don't.

c0rpusdelicti
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby c0rpusdelicti » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:56 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
acdisagod wrote:How is learning some basic tort law hurtful? What is wrong with learning the basics of negligence, assault, and res ipsa loquitur from an E&E?

Right now I'm a second semester senior who does zero school work. I read an E&E for a half an hour to an hour per night and get about a chapter per day done.


Imagine this scenario:

Master saxophonists tell you that buying and tooting around with a sax before you take any lessons is detrimental at worst, and a waste of time at best. You then go out and buy a saxophone and start tooting around. What's wrong with that, right?


Your argument doesn't wash. First off, none of you are the legal equivalent of "master saxophonists" - at best, you could be considered students at some institute of saxophone instruction. The individual who decides to do 0L prep reading hasn't bought a sax to incompetently and arrogantly toot it about. He or she has done the equivalent of buying the "Saxophone for Dummies" book and is attempting to become familiar with the peculiarities of saxophone tooting before he or she begins their program of face-to-face, intensive instruction in the field.

Is there a danger of "mis-prepping" (misunderstanding the actual consequences of legal rules and how said consequences are formed by the context in which those rules are applied, developing a sense of a rule that doesn't mesh with your professors, etc.)? Definitely. That's why I think it's wise to prep with a sense of perspective, if you're going to prep at all. Know that you're going to have to reconcile the concepts of the law that you have in your head with the way your professor instructs the class, with what his or her favorite policy considerations are, etc. But I don't think that becoming familiar with the basics of legal concepts and elements of black letter law would be truly detrimental to someone's success. And, seriously, if you worry that spending three months doing relatively non-intensive legal reading is going to "burn you out", I would posit that you're going to have serious trouble in law school.

Also, what's this bullshit about it being bad to "get a leg up"? I'm sorry, but I'm not going to law school for anyone but myself. It is my goal to be as successful as I can be and I will do everything feasible to reach that goal. If you have a problem with that.....well, fuck you, buddy.

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TTT-LS
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby TTT-LS » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:57 pm

,
Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mikeytwoshoes
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Re: Rank 0L prep - 1L courses most helpful to least helpful

Postby mikeytwoshoes » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:25 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
c0rpusdelicti wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
acdisagod wrote:How is learning some basic tort law hurtful? What is wrong with learning the basics of negligence, assault, and res ipsa loquitur from an E&E?

Right now I'm a second semester senior who does zero school work. I read an E&E for a half an hour to an hour per night and get about a chapter per day done.


Imagine this scenario:

Master saxophonists tell you that buying and tooting around with a sax before you take any lessons is detrimental at worst, and a waste of time at best. You then go out and buy a saxophone and start tooting around. What's wrong with that, right?


Your argument doesn't wash. First off, none of you are the legal equivalent of "master saxophonists" - at best, you could be considered students at some institute of saxophone instruction. The individual who decides to do 0L prep reading hasn't bought a sax to incompetently and arrogantly toot it about. He or she has done the equivalent of buying the "Saxophone for Dummies" book and is attempting to become familiar with the peculiarities of saxophone tooting before he or she begins their program of face-to-face, intensive instruction in the field.

Is there a danger of "mis-prepping" (misunderstanding the actual consequences of legal rules and how said consequences are formed by the context in which those rules are applied, developing a sense of a rule that doesn't mesh with your professors, etc.)? Definitely. That's why I think it's wise to prep with a sense of perspective, if you're going to prep at all. Know that you're going to have to reconcile the concepts of the law that you have in your head with the way your professor instructs the class, with what his or her favorite policy considerations are, etc. But I don't think that becoming familiar with the basics of legal concepts and elements of black letter law would be truly detrimental to someone's success. And, seriously, if you worry that spending three months doing relatively non-intensive legal reading is going to "burn you out", I would posit that you're going to have serious trouble in law school.

Also, what's this bullshit about it being bad to "get a leg up"? I'm sorry, but I'm not going to law school for anyone but myself. It is my goal to be as successful as I can be and I will do everything feasible to reach that goal. If you have a problem with that.....well, fuck you, buddy.

What you "think" and what you "posit" means jack shit, pal. You have no basis on which to make those assertions, no experience. We, however, do. We've played the game you are about to play and won. So don't tell us our "arguments" (statements of fact, really) "don't wash."

There's a logical fallacy in your idea that you're going "to do everything feasible" to succeed in law school. Specifically, you wrongly assume that trying to do 0L prep will advance the cause. Yet those efforts will, in actuality, hinder it. As counterintuitive as it may seem, lots of summer r&r would give you the best edge in the fall. Feel free to disregard our unanimous advice, but know that you're doing so at your peril.

By "peril" he means that we'll come beat you up or point at you and laugh. You'll never know when it's coming. :evil:




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