LL.M. Admissions Criteria

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Scheveningen
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LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Scheveningen » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:46 am

To those who are familiar with LL.M. admissions, what would you say are the main criteria by which applications are evaluated, and what is the relative importance of each criterion? In addition, to what extent does the institution from where an applicant received his/her J.D. factor into the decision?

270910
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby 270910 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:01 pm

Why are you looking into getting an LLM? They are almost exclusively obtained by people with foreign law degrees as a credential to practice in the states, or for veeeeery specialized fields (like Tax) that get a boost from a bit more focus.

I don't mean to question your plans, but you won't find a lot of into on admissions for that very reason - almost nobody gets an LLM after the JD, as it doesn't add a lot of value.

Scheveningen
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Scheveningen » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:12 pm

You are right that few J.D. holders will go on to obtain an LL.M. I am interested in pursuing one, however, in large part because I would like to work in legal academia, for which an advanced law degree is almost always necessary.

270910
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby 270910 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:17 pm

Scheveningen wrote:You are right that few J.D. holders will go on to obtain an LL.M. I am interested in pursuing one, however, in large part because I would like to work in legal academia, for which an advanced law degree is almost always necessary.


That is completely false.

Oban
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Oban » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:32 pm

It does help though. If you look at a lot of Lawl school proofs, they either got a JD at HYS or a JD at a T50 + Elite LLM(NYU, GT, HLS, etc)

Scheveningen
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Scheveningen » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:14 pm

Oban wrote:It does help though. If you look at a lot of Lawl school proofs, they either got a JD at HYS or a JD at a T50 + Elite LLM(NYU, GT, HLS, etc)

That sounds about right. Years ago, a J.D. from a top law school was sufficient. Nowadays, an LL.M., S.J.D., or Ph.D. in another field is often necessary.

StudentAthlete
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby StudentAthlete » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:13 pm

Scheveningen wrote:
Oban wrote:It does help though. If you look at a lot of Lawl school proofs, they either got a JD at HYS or a JD at a T50 + Elite LLM(NYU, GT, HLS, etc)

That sounds about right. Years ago, a J.D. from a top law school was sufficient. Nowadays, an LL.M., S.J.D., or Ph.D. in another field is often necessary.



This is also false. About 5-10% of law profs obtain one of those degrees. And as for the SJD, more of the 1% variety.

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vamedic03
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby vamedic03 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:19 pm

StudentAthlete wrote:
Scheveningen wrote:
Oban wrote:It does help though. If you look at a lot of Lawl school proofs, they either got a JD at HYS or a JD at a T50 + Elite LLM(NYU, GT, HLS, etc)

That sounds about right. Years ago, a J.D. from a top law school was sufficient. Nowadays, an LL.M., S.J.D., or Ph.D. in another field is often necessary.



This is also false. About 5-10% of law profs obtain one of those degrees. And as for the SJD, more of the 1% variety.


TITCR . . . the most beneficial thing would be to get a PhD in an analytic social science so that you can do empirical studies.

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nealric
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby nealric » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:49 pm

I certainly wouldn't advise on an LL.M for teaching if you are paying full-freight. The only possible exception is if you want to teach tax and are getting a tax LL.M.

Either way, I think a Phd. is probably the better bet for aspiring academics.


To answer your question, LL.M programs are typically very easy to get into. For the most part, they are cash-cows for the law schools because they are mostly taught by adjuncts. At least for tax LL.Ms, a T14 JD is pretty much an autoadmit for the NYU tax LL.M program (#1 program). Top 1/4 or so at a 2nd tier school will do it as well.

CanadianWolf
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:43 pm

Some LLM programs require graduation from law school in the top 25% of your class, but, as the admissions requirements are set by each school offering the LLM degree, this can vary from law school to law school. The most lenient admissions requirement for an LLM in taxation is graduating in the top 50% of one's class.

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edcrane
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby edcrane » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:30 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Some LLM programs require graduation from law school in the top 25% of your class, but, as the admissions requirements are set by each school offering the LLM degree, this can vary from law school to law school. The most lenient admissions requirement for an LLM in taxation is graduating in the top 50% of one's class.


You can probably get into NYU's tax LLM program from the lower half of the class, provided you're coming from a T14. It's much less selective than the JD program.

The downside to this accessibility is that job placement for full time LLM students, in this economy, is quite poor. I know a couple LLMs at NYU with top 25% GPAs who struck out with entirely with firms last year.

I can't imagine the job prospects from less well regarded programs (tax and non-tax alike) would be significantly better. In my view, LLMs only make sense if you have a foreign law degree or if they are funded (either through an employer or some sort of scholarship).

CanadianWolf
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:41 pm

I am only familiar with a few LLM Taxation programs. To the best of my recollection the Univ. of Florida & Emory University require top 25% rank from your JD law school.
NYU is more difficult & may require top 20% with high grades in all tax courses taken. The Univ. of Miami LLM in Estate Planning requires, to the best of my recollection, top 50% rank from JD granting law school. The reality may be, to some extent, based upon competition for the 75 or so spots that open up each year in NYU's LLM Taxation program (full time, not Executive LLM Taxation program).
NYU rejects a lot of LLM Taxation applicants to the full time program as does the Univ. of Florida.
Not sure whether the tier ranking of one's JD degree granting law school comes into play. LLM Taxation programs seem to be mostly concerned with final class rank & grades in all tax law courses undertaken & that the JD degree granting law school was ABA accredited when the law degree was awarded. I don't think that a degree from a top 14 law school carries any more weight in competitive LLM Taxation program admissions than a degree from any other tier one or tier two law school. I hesitate to include tier 4 programs due to the recent accreditation of several law schools after anti-trust litigation against the ABA "forced" wholesale law school approval.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Grizz » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:45 pm

From what I've heard around, an LLM in anything other than tax from NYU, GULC, or UF is pretty much a waste.

CanadianWolf
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:47 pm

I disagree because it depends on the purpose of the law student in seeking an LLM degree. I suspect that many LLM taxation degree seekers are encouraged by their employers to further specialize, or are seeking continuing education credits for the bar (part time students) & that most are reimbursed by their employers.

Scheveningen
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Scheveningen » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:15 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
StudentAthlete wrote:
Scheveningen wrote:
Oban wrote:It does help though. If you look at a lot of Lawl school proofs, they either got a JD at HYS or a JD at a T50 + Elite LLM(NYU, GT, HLS, etc)

That sounds about right. Years ago, a J.D. from a top law school was sufficient. Nowadays, an LL.M., S.J.D., or Ph.D. in another field is often necessary.



This is also false. About 5-10% of law profs obtain one of those degrees. And as for the SJD, more of the 1% variety.


TITCR . . . the most beneficial thing would be to get a PhD in an analytic social science so that you can do empirical studies.


My observation was based on discussions with a few aspiring law professors, who all said something along these lines (http://law-career.blogspot.com/2006/07/ ... -llms.html):

"In order to land a tenure-track teaching job at a US law school, you generally need to have another postgraduate degree besides your JD. Take it from someone who just recently went through the process. Some law schools want candidates with JDs and PhDs, but you want at least an LLM or equivalent degree (a master's degree in something else)."

Thanks to those who actually responded to my original questions.

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VA LawDog
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby VA LawDog » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:09 pm

Slightly off topic:

If I already have a CPA, would it still be beneficial to have an LL.M in Tax. I am looking to work in bank/corporate tax or regulatory compliance.

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vamedic03
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby vamedic03 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:35 pm

Scheveningen wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
StudentAthlete wrote:
Scheveningen wrote:

This is also false. About 5-10% of law profs obtain one of those degrees. And as for the SJD, more of the 1% variety.


TITCR . . . the most beneficial thing would be to get a PhD in an analytic social science so that you can do empirical studies.


My observation was based on discussions with a few aspiring law professors, who all said something along these lines (http://law-career.blogspot.com/2006/07/ ... -llms.html):

"In order to land a tenure-track teaching job at a US law school, you generally need to have another postgraduate degree besides your JD. Take it from someone who just recently went through the process. Some law schools want candidates with JDs and PhDs, but you want at least an LLM or equivalent degree (a master's degree in something else)."

Thanks to those who actually responded to my original questions.



You're a 0L; why do you insist on arguing with law students who know actual, not aspiring, law professors?

Scheveningen
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Scheveningen » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:18 am

vamedic03 wrote:You're a 0L; why do you insist on arguing with law students who know actual, not aspiring, law professors?

The people who I consulted are in JSD programs or going through the faculty recruitment process. Clearly they are credible sources. Simply knowing law professors, which I do as well, does not make someone an authority on this topic.

Danteshek
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Danteshek » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:05 pm

Two questions:

(1) What does everybody think about Loyola-LA's Tax LLM program for someone who wants to practice in Los Angeles?

(2) Would it make sense for me to do Georgetown's Securities and Financial Regulation LLM program if I want to practice securities law?

btw, I am top 20% at a T3, and currently in the SEC's summer honors program in DC.

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Matthies
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Re: LL.M. Admissions Criteria

Postby Matthies » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:55 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
You're a 0L; why do you insist on arguing with law students who know actual, not aspiring, law professors?


Your a law stdunet why do you instsit on arguing with people who have LLMs, passed the bar and pratice law? :P I like out rank you and him on your scale of who can talk shit. :shock:


And Nelric can likley asnwer questions about the tx LLm at GT, but he's in bar prep so don't expect an quick response.

Mine in Envriomental and Water Law it seems to come up alot when people are refered to me 'oh you have an LLM in nerviomental law blah blah" Not useless. And you don't OCI with an LLM at most schools, so that's not how you use it to "boost" your job serach. tax may be diffrent, but the main reason for mine was to publish




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