Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

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futurelawstudent10
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Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:29 am

I graduated from a well-regarded, land-grant university with an excellent GPA (Magna Cum Laude), but only earned an average LSAT score. As a result I will be matriculating into a tier 3/4 school this fall. I am very interested in working for the government and will soon begin volunteering at our local prosecutor's office. I am committed to my lifelong goal of becoming an ADA and will do whatever is necessary. I have a genuine passion and will kick myself for any valuable, missed opportunities.

With my situation in mind, I have a few questions:

1. Does tier matter as much when you strive to work for the government?

2. How can I make the most of this situation with respect to internships, community service, joining the correct EC groups, the right classes, and networking?

3. Assuming I do well, should I seek to transfer after L1?

- Thanks :lol:
Last edited by futurelawstudent10 on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JPeavy44
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby JPeavy44 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:48 am

If you have to "make the most" out of the situation, you probably shouldn't go in the first place. Law school is a HUGE commitment, and if you're not into it, you won't make it. You're better off retaking and waiting a year then trying to make the most out of a T3/4.

IF you do well your first year, definitely look to transfer if you want, but don't bank on that before starting law school.

270910
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby 270910 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:51 am

futurelawstudent10 wrote:1. Does tier matter as much when you strive to work for the government?


Yes. A lot.

futurelawstudent10 wrote:2. How can I make the most of this situation?


Don't fucking go to law school.

futurelawstudent10 wrote:3. Assuming I do well, should I seek to transfer after L1?


Sure. There is a 95% chance you won't do well enough to make a meaningful transfer, good luck with that.

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macattaq
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby macattaq » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:56 am

futurelawstudent10 wrote:I graduated from a well-regarded, land-grant university with an excellent GPA (Magna Cum Laude), but only earned an average LSAT score. As a result I will be matriculating into a tier 3/4 school this fall. I am very interested in working for the government and will soon begin volunteering at our local prosecutor's office. I am committed to my lifelong goal of becoming an ADA and will do whatever is necessary. I have a genuine passion and will kick myself for any valuable, missed opportunities.

With my situation in mind, I have a few questions:

1. Does tier matter as much when you strive to work for the government?

2. How can I make the most of this situation?

3. Assuming I do well, should I seek to transfer after L1?

- Thanks :lol:


The bold + No. 2 = you spending a lot of time on your knees.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:57 am

Please...only mature comments. But, then again, this is TLS...
Last edited by futurelawstudent10 on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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24secure
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby 24secure » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:05 am

I'm going to a T4 and can offer some advice.

I don't know if your school grades legal writing or research, but most lower ranked schools do. I don't want to say not to focus on your doctrinal classes (like Civil Procedure, Criminal Law), but you really want to try to get a good grade in Legal Writing and Legal Research. No matter what the curve is at your school, getting a B- in Legal Research doesn't look too good, even if it is the median at your school.

I'm not going to say that the tier level at your school doesn't matter, because it might. As for me, I'm at the 50th percentile in my class and I applied to about 5 different employers (3 as public defender jobs, 2 as judicial clerkships) and was selected to interview for each one of them. The interviews were fairly recent, and I haven't gotten any call backs, so I can't speak for the chances you'll actually be hired.

At my school, at lot of employers in the area will only hire people that graduated from my school. That could be a reason I've gotten interviews. I'm not sure. You may want to see if your school is the same way.

Other than that, do the normal law school things like networking and getting to know professors by going to their office hours. You'll figure it out.

That's about it. Good luck.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:13 am

JPeavy44 wrote:If you have to "make the most" out of the situation, you probably shouldn't go in the first place. Law school is a HUGE commitment, and if you're not into it, you won't make it. You're better off retaking and waiting a year then trying to make the most out of a T3/4.

IF you do well your first year, definitely look to transfer if you want, but don't bank on that before starting law school.


"Making the most of the situation" with respect to internships, joining the correct EC groups, the right classes, and networking.

It's nothing to do with a lack motivation or distaste. I'm committed.

Also, my husband is top ten in his class at the school I will most likely attend so I have a decent idea of what I'm in for.

- Thanks for the...kind words :roll:

acdisagod
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby acdisagod » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:17 am

If you're really that committed I think you take that dedication and put it into prepping for the LSAT . IF you have a great GPA I'm sure with practice you're capable of breaking 160 and then you would have much better opportunities coming out of law school. Or, at the very elast, a much better scholarship at the t3/t4.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:22 am

acdisagod wrote:If you're really that committed I think you take that dedication and put it into prepping for the LSAT . IF you have a great GPA I'm sure with practice you're capable of breaking 160 and then you would have much better opportunities coming out of law school. Or, at the very elast, a much better scholarship at the t3/t4.


I scored in the 150s with my own preparation. I did not take a prep course. I didn't do extraordinary on the ACT and did an excellent job in college. I am simply not the most talented test taker...but I'm a dedicated student.

Would it be logical to go ahead and complete L1 at a Tier 3 school during the '10 - '11 term and retake the LSAT in June?

It seems as if I can get a year out of the way and increase my odds of a meaningful transfer through a better exam score?

p.s. I'm going to get a scholarship. So money isn't a factor.
Last edited by futurelawstudent10 on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

270910
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby 270910 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:22 am

futurelawstudent10 wrote:
JPeavy44 wrote:If you have to "make the most" out of the situation, you probably shouldn't go in the first place. Law school is a HUGE commitment, and if you're not into it, you won't make it. You're better off retaking and waiting a year then trying to make the most out of a T3/4.

IF you do well your first year, definitely look to transfer if you want, but don't bank on that before starting law school.


"Making the most of the situation" with respect to internships, joining the correct EC groups, the right classes, and networking.

It's nothing to do with a lack motivation or distaste. I'm committed.

Also, my husband is top ten in his class at the school I will most likely attend so I have a decent idea of what I'm in for.

- Thanks for the...kind words :roll:


Sorry for ragging on you earlier, the bold, italics, and underline really changed things. You've clearly got what it takes 8)

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cardnal124
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby cardnal124 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:29 am

Ya, this is what it comes down to. You either watch Disney movies and always assume the underdog will win or you are realistic and understand that it doesn't happen that often, hence why they are underdogs.Every T3/T4 advocate talks about "hard work" and "motivation" and everything of the sort. Realize that people in T1 and T2 schools have that same motivation and will work as hard if not harder and you will be competing against them for jobs.

That being said if you have your heart set on being an attorney, I'm sure you can do really well coming from a T3/T4, but it would be the exception and not the rule. There are somewhere around 43,000 law students graduating each year and you are automatically behind 15-20,000 of them.

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romothesavior
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:30 am

I am going to totally disagree with the other posters on this one (though I do admit that my knowledge and expertise is limited). Unlike the T3 and T4 people who think they can do really well and make big law or clerk for a federal judge, you actually have a somewhat realistic goal in mind. As long as we are talking about a smaller county state's attorney (aka not a big city), I think you should be able to do alright for yourself. As long as you don't expect a whole lot of portability from your degree and you really hone in on this prosecutor's office, you may be able to get hired with a T3 or T4.

Some people on here amaze me. Where do you think the prosecutors, DUI lawyers, small claim injury lawyers, etc. in small to mid-size towns in America come from? Believe it or not, you can do okay from a T3 or T4, so long as you are realistic with your goals and you network your ass off. I was at a family function a few weeks ago and met my cousin's girlfriend. She was a Cooley graduate and she is working as a PD. Yes, Cooley. But she knew going into LS that she was not going to make it to big law, so she focused her energy on criminal law and did some solid networking. OP, if you really want to be a prosector, then go to somewhere CHEAP and focus on practicing law in your area after graduation.
Last edited by romothesavior on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:31 am

disco_barred wrote:
futurelawstudent10 wrote:
JPeavy44 wrote:If you have to "make the most" out of the situation, you probably shouldn't go in the first place. Law school is a HUGE commitment, and if you're not into it, you won't make it. You're better off retaking and waiting a year then trying to make the most out of a T3/4.

IF you do well your first year, definitely look to transfer if you want, but don't bank on that before starting law school.


"Making the most of the situation" with respect to internships, joining the correct EC groups, the right classes, and networking.

It's nothing to do with a lack motivation or distaste. I'm committed.

Also, my husband is top ten in his class at the school I will most likely attend so I have a decent idea of what I'm in for.

- Thanks for the...kind words :roll:




Sorry for ragging on you earlier, the bold, italics, and underline really changed things. You've clearly got what it takes 8)


Hey, Sugar! Apology accepted. You're forgiven. A southern girl doesn't hold grudges. Especially with the intelligent, absolutely charming gentlemen on TLS. It is sincerely my fault. Poorly written thread. :wink:
Last edited by futurelawstudent10 on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:34 am

romothesavior wrote:I am going to totally disagree with the other posters on this one (though I do admit that my knowledge and expertise is limited). Unlike the T3 and T4 people who think they can do really well and make big law or clerk for a federal judge, you actually have a somewhat realistic goal in mind. As long as we are talking about a smaller county state's attorney (aka not a big city), I think you should be able to do alright for yourself. As long as you don't expect a whole lot of portability from your degree and you really hone in on this prosecutor's office, you may be able to get hired with a T3 or T4.

Some people on here amaze me. Where do you think the prosecutors, DUI lawyers, small claim injury lawyers, etc. in small to mid-size towns in America come from? Believe it or not, you can do okay from a T3 or T4, so long as you are realistic with your goals and you network your ass off. I was at a family function a few weeks ago and met my cousin's girlfriend. She was a Cooley graduate and she is working as a PD. Yes, Cooley. But she knew going into LS that she was not going to make it to big law, so she focused her energy on criminal law and did some solid networking. OP, if you really want to be a prosector, then go to somewhere CHEAP and focus on practicing law in your area after graduation.


Thank you. I live in WV and am currently looking at WVU (T3) or Dayton (T4).

I feel as if I'm being realistic and that my heart is in it for the right reasons.

I plan to bust my ass and make the most of my opportunities.

I'm simply seeking advice from those who have already been there.

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BigA
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby BigA » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:38 am

futurelawstudent10 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:


Sorry for ragging on you earlier, the bold, italics, and underline really changed things. You've clearly got what it takes 8)


Hey, Sugar! Apology accepted. You're forgiven. A southern girl doesn't hold grudges. Especially with the intelligent, absolutely charming gentlemen on TLS. :wink:


I think he was being sarcastic

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MTal
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby MTal » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:39 am

If you're really as hard working and motivated as you claim, you would have gotten in to a better school.

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macattaq
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby macattaq » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:41 am

romothesavior wrote:I am going to totally disagree with the other posters on this one (though I do admit that my knowledge and expertise is limited). Unlike the T3 and T4 people who think they can do really well and make big law or clerk for a federal judge, you actually have a somewhat realistic goal in mind. As long as we are talking about a smaller county state's attorney (aka not a big city), I think you should be able to do alright for yourself. As long as you don't expect a whole lot of portability from your degree and you really hone in on this prosecutor's office, you may be able to get hired with a T3 or T4.

Some people on here amaze me. Where do you think the prosecutors, DUI lawyers, small claim injury lawyers, etc. in small to mid-size towns in America come from? Believe it or not, you can do okay from a T3 or T4, so long as you are realistic with your goals and you network your ass off. I was at a family function a few weeks ago and met my cousin's girlfriend. She was a Cooley graduate and she is working as a PD. Yes, Cooley. But she knew going into LS that she was not going to make it to big law, so she focused her energy on criminal law and did some solid networking. OP, if you really want to be a prosector, then go to somewhere CHEAP and focus on practicing law in your area after graduation.


This. OP, you know what you want, so stay focused on that. Of course, if you take some other classes, and decide that an ADA position isn't what you want, then don't be so sold on your original plan that you continue to pursue it even though your heart is pushing you somewhere else. That being said, volunteering with the prosecutor's office is a great idea. Getting involved in moot court and alternative dispute resolution ought to help. Criminal Justice Society should be beneficial as well. If you can get a certification that allows you to do limited practice as a 2/3L, then see if you can take the prerequisite course over the summer (for us, it is evidence). This will open up a number of jobs and a wealth of experience that you wouldn't be able to get otherwise. These are just the things that I can think of off the top of my head, but then, I'm also not particularly interested in the court room route. I'm sure there are others who have more specific information they can give you.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:42 am

BigA wrote:
futurelawstudent10 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:


Sorry for ragging on you earlier, the bold, italics, and underline really changed things. You've clearly got what it takes 8)


Hey, Sugar! Apology accepted. You're forgiven. A southern girl doesn't hold grudges. Especially with the intelligent, absolutely charming gentlemen on TLS. :wink:


I think he was being sarcastic


It's ok...so am I. My fault. It's late and I misunderstood his motivations. :D

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romothesavior
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:43 am

futurelawstudent10 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I am going to totally disagree with the other posters on this one (though I do admit that my knowledge and expertise is limited). Unlike the T3 and T4 people who think they can do really well and make big law or clerk for a federal judge, you actually have a somewhat realistic goal in mind. As long as we are talking about a smaller county state's attorney (aka not a big city), I think you should be able to do alright for yourself. As long as you don't expect a whole lot of portability from your degree and you really hone in on this prosecutor's office, you may be able to get hired with a T3 or T4.

Some people on here amaze me. Where do you think the prosecutors, DUI lawyers, small claim injury lawyers, etc. in small to mid-size towns in America come from? Believe it or not, you can do okay from a T3 or T4, so long as you are realistic with your goals and you network your ass off. I was at a family function a few weeks ago and met my cousin's girlfriend. She was a Cooley graduate and she is working as a PD. Yes, Cooley. But she knew going into LS that she was not going to make it to big law, so she focused her energy on criminal law and did some solid networking. OP, if you really want to be a prosector, then go to somewhere CHEAP and focus on practicing law in your area after graduation.


Thank you. I live in WV and am currently looking at WVU (T3) or Dayton (T4).

I feel as if I'm being realistic and that my heart is in it for the right reasons.

I plan to bust my ass and make the most of my opportunities.

I'm simply seeking advice from those who have already been there.


This is just conjecture, but I'm guessing that most law offices and small town government positions in WV probably hire WVU grads? Not a whole lot of LS opportunity in WV. If so, I would think that would change some people's outlooks.

WVU for big law or out of state work? F'ing stupid. WVU with a scholly to work as a prosecutor in WV? Not a bad idea at all.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:48 am

MTal wrote:If you're really as hard working and motivated as you claim, you would have gotten in to a better school.


Maybe you're correct, but most likely you're not. Some people, like myself, just aren't fantastic at taking standardized exams. There are many different types of genius. LSAT scores really provide no conclusive indication of how successful you'll be as an attorney. Simply an admissions tool.

I'm all about seizing opportunities, having realistic goals, and making the most of this journey.

I feel that I have done a lot better than most of society to make it this far.

Best of luck.

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cardnal124
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby cardnal124 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:58 am

futurelawstudent10 wrote:This post is about seizing opportunities and having realistic goals based on the cards you're dealt.


I think the predominant opinion on this board (especially right now during hiring freezes for many law firms) is that only those best suited to be lawyers should commit themselves to law school, thus the T14 talk. If you realistically think the LSAT does not accurately measure how good of a lawyer you will be, go for T3/T4, but don't be shocked if you don't make it. Law school is not college, it's a completely different style of learning, and the grading measures for most classes resemble the environment of the LSAT (one test, 3 hours).

That being said, I think you are at least realistic about where you would want to go afterwards and about the incredible challenge it presents, so good luck.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:00 am

cardnal124 wrote:
futurelawstudent10 wrote:This post is about seizing opportunities and having realistic goals based on the cards you're dealt.


I think the predominant opinion on this board (especially right now during hiring freezes for many law firms) is that only those best suited to be lawyers should commit themselves to law school, thus the T14 talk. If you realistically think the LSAT does not accurately measure how good of a lawyer you will be, go for T3/T4, but don't be shocked if you don't make it. Law school is not college, it's a completely different style of learning, and the grading measures for most classes resemble the environment of the LSAT (one test, 3 hours).

That being said, I think you are at least realistic about where you would want to go afterwards and about the incredible challenge it presents, so good luck.


Well, scholarship in hand and not much to lose, there is only one way to find out. I'm quite excited to sell my soul to LS. Thank you! :D

In light of the T14 J.D. or NO J.D. attitude, believe it or not, some of us (including a fraction of the very best students) are motivated by the potential differences we can make in our communities/states as opposed to the $ almighty dollar $. Therefore, especially with scholarships, why NOT attend T3/T4 schools? After all, some "unfortunate" T3/T4 grad has to ensure the violent criminals are kept off our streets. Otherwise, how will our T1/T2 big shots safely make it to their BMWs at 1 am when they get off work at their respective law firm? 8)
Last edited by futurelawstudent10 on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

gregw8705
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby gregw8705 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:02 am

Take another year off, put your hard work, motivation, and commitment into re-taking the LSAT and getting a better score and gaining admittance to a T1.

There was a big PI/Government interview program in Richmond recently and there were tons of DA (CA in Virginia) offices interviewing 1Ls and 2Ls. Want to guess the schools invited? It wasn't any of Liberty, Regent, or Appalachian. Only W&L, W&M, and Richmond, VA's T1 schools (maybe T2 as I don't know about Richmond's status in the Tier hierarchy) excepting UVA — probably because they need only ask and they'll have whatever State or Local gov't or PI position they want in this state — and GMU — probably because students at GMU are mostly looking just over the Potomac for a job or looking in NOVA where they don't need a big interview fair to meet with those hiring in the area.

My point is that the most motivated, hardworking, and committed law student on Earth might be at a lower-tier VA law school and they wouldn't have had this opportunity. My sense from the interviewers was that this program constituted the bulk of what they were doing in terms of interviews. Higher-ranked schools open doors you might not even know about yet, and it'd be a shame to put yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have to.

futurelawstudent10
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby futurelawstudent10 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:34 am

gregw8705 wrote:Take another year off, put your hard work, motivation, and commitment into re-taking the LSAT and getting a better score and gaining admittance to a T1.

There was a big PI/Government interview program in Richmond recently and there were tons of DA (CA in Virginia) offices interviewing 1Ls and 2Ls. Want to guess the schools invited? It wasn't any of Liberty, Regent, or Appalachian. Only W&L, W&M, and Richmond, VA's T1 schools (maybe T2 as I don't know about Richmond's status in the Tier hierarchy) excepting UVA — probably because they need only ask and they'll have whatever State or Local gov't or PI position they want in this state — and GMU — probably because students at GMU are mostly looking just over the Potomac for a job or looking in NOVA where they don't need a big interview fair to meet with those hiring in the area.

My point is that the most motivated, hardworking, and committed law student on Earth might be at a lower-tier VA law school and they wouldn't have had this opportunity. My sense from the interviewers was that this program constituted the bulk of what they were doing in terms of interviews. Higher-ranked schools open doors you might not even know about yet, and it'd be a shame to put yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have to.


Interesting. I will remember that. Do you think it would be beneficial to retake the LSAT in June for a better score, complete L1 at the lower ranked school, and then try to transfer? The only thing working to my advantage is that I live in WV.

WV is quite the "unique" state when it comes to law. It seems that a WVU grad holds the prestige of a Harvard grad in WV. :roll:

J.H.Holliday
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Re: Making the Most of Tiers 3/4

Postby J.H.Holliday » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:17 am

When you try to transfer, the schools you apply to won't look at your LSAT. They are going to look at how you performed during your 1L. You won't have an opportunity to make a better impression with just a higher LSAT.

How much preparation did you do before taking your LSAT? You seem to excuse your low score as a result of not being a good test taker. Most people who do well on the LSAT do a LOT of preparation, even if they are good test takers. My wife put in over 500 hours of preparation and brought her score up from the mid 150's to a 164 (and that was the low end of her practice scoring range near the end - she was scoring in the 168-170 on 7 of her last 10 practice tests). She also has a good GPA - 3.64, and as a result of her hard work on the LSAT prep she is going to a top 30 school.

She did everything to practice. She did all the bibles, many practice tests, went to a weekend prep class - and then realized she needed to do even more work because she still wasn't regularly above 160. She then enrolled in a longer 6 week course and put in hundreds of additional hours. That is the definition of dedication and hard work, and making that kind of effort to get a better LSAT score is your best shot to getting in a higher ranked school.

Take another year and kick that test's ass! Consider it a 'free' do-over. How many times do you get one of those in life?

It the smart thing to do.




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