Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

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thexfactor
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Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby thexfactor » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:58 pm

Just curious....

Has anyone thought about suing their law school for fraud, misrepresentation or unconscionability?
Many TTT law schools point out outrageous median/average salaries. Some LS s don't even tell you the percentage of people that reported to career services.
Last edited by thexfactor on Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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hans3n
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Re: Any recent LS graduates thought about suing their LS ?

Postby hans3n » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:00 am

You probably need to buy a subscription, but US News has employment statistics for a lot of schools, and also has the number of students reporting their numbers from their respective schools regarding salaries.

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hoopsguy6
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their law school for fraud mis..

Postby hoopsguy6 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:01 am

Poor and unemployed graduates suing an institution that employs hundreds of the top legal minds in the country? Can't imagine that working out too well.

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thexfactor
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their law school for fraud mis..

Postby thexfactor » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:03 am

hoopsguy6 wrote:Poor and unemployed graduates suing an institution that employs hundreds of the top legal minds in the country? Can't imagine that working out too well.


lol that s true. The students that are jobless prob didnt do a very good job of paying attention in class.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:04 am

Wasn't this a conscious decision on the part of a LS grad? Do you purchase a car based solely on the info pasted on the driver window? You cannot be serious...

Pearalegal
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:06 am

Everything that you need to know about these TTT schools and the risks associated can be found online with a quick google search. If someone is both immature enough not to thoroughly investigate the school they're investing in and then whine about not getting a job and being in debt, I'd hope a judge would laugh in their face.

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Sauer Grapes
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby Sauer Grapes » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:06 am

....
Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thexfactor
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby thexfactor » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:07 am

GATORTIM wrote:Wasn't this a conscious decision on the part of a LS grad? Do you purchase a car based solely on the info pasted on the driver window? You cannot be serious...

not always. Check jones v. star credit.
You can try to draw an analogy that someone who gets a 14x on their LSAT doesn't know any better. lol

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thexfactor
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby thexfactor » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:15 am

Look at Syracuse. --LinkRemoved--
How can the career center staff sleep at night?
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the statistics from that page aren't misleading?

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Grad_Student
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby Grad_Student » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:21 am

thexfactor wrote:Look at Syracuse. --LinkRemoved--
How can the career center staff sleep at night?
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the statistics from that page aren't misleading?

How is it misleading?

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reasonable_man
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:26 am

This thread is fucking retarded.

Pearalegal
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:27 am

thexfactor wrote:Look at Syracuse. --LinkRemoved--
How can the career center staff sleep at night?
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the statistics from that page aren't misleading?


Apparently if everyone would know they're misleading, theres not an issue here.

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MeTalkPrettyOneDay
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby MeTalkPrettyOneDay » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:33 am

thexfactor wrote:Look at Syracuse. --LinkRemoved-- ... stats.aspx
How can the career center staff sleep at night?
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the statistics from that page aren't misleading?
Yes. Honestly, that all looks pretty straight-forward and reasonable to me. Claiming that 46% of the employed grads of the Class of 2008 work for private firms and that the average (note: not median) alumnus in this group earns 94K actually seems perfectly reasonable. Surely some alumni landed big law gigs, which is what pulls the average up to 94K. People who don't work for a big law firm or a top regional firm almost certainly earn less than 94K, and I'd expect most of the grads who don't work for private firms (i.e.: 54% of the class) earn quite a bit less than 94K (supported by the stat that the overall average starting salary is 75K). 94K seems like a reasonable average for the 46% of the class that goes to private firms. I've seen some schools report some seriously massaged stats, and these stats don't look that juked to me.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:39 am

MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
thexfactor wrote:Look at Syracuse. --LinkRemoved-- ... stats.aspx
How can the career center staff sleep at night?
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the statistics from that page aren't misleading?
Yes. Honestly, that all looks pretty straight-forward and reasonable to me. Claiming that 46% of the employed grads of the Class of 2008 work for private firms and that the average (note: not median) alumnus in this group earns 94K actually seems perfectly reasonable. Surely some alumni landed big law gigs, which is what pulls the average up to 94K. People who don't work for a big law firm or a top regional firm almost certainly earn less than 94K, and I'd expect most of the grads who don't work for private firms (i.e.: 54% of the class) earn quite a bit less than 94K (supported by the stat that the overall average starting salary is 75K). 94K seems like a reasonable average for the 46% of the class that goes to private firms. I've seen some schools report some seriously massaged stats, and these stats don't look that juked to me.


Eh. I don't know about that. That's not 46%. That's 46% of the graduates who are reporting, which is far less than 46% of the total graduating class. There are also a truck load of kids working at private firms earning less than 50k that were way to ashamed to report their salary. All law schools lie about their numbers, most of all the "Top 100."

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MeTalkPrettyOneDay
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby MeTalkPrettyOneDay » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:51 am

reasonable_man wrote:
MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
thexfactor wrote:Look at Syracuse. --LinkRemoved-- ... stats.aspx
How can the career center staff sleep at night?
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the statistics from that page aren't misleading?
Yes. Honestly, that all looks pretty straight-forward and reasonable to me. Claiming that 46% of the employed grads of the Class of 2008 work for private firms and that the average (note: not median) alumnus in this group earns 94K actually seems perfectly reasonable. Surely some alumni landed big law gigs, which is what pulls the average up to 94K. People who don't work for a big law firm or a top regional firm almost certainly earn less than 94K, and I'd expect most of the grads who don't work for private firms (i.e.: 54% of the class) earn quite a bit less than 94K (supported by the stat that the overall average starting salary is 75K). 94K seems like a reasonable average for the 46% of the class that goes to private firms. I've seen some schools report some seriously massaged stats, and these stats don't look that juked to me.


Eh. I don't know about that. That's not 46%. That's 46% of the graduates who are reporting, which is far less than 46% of the total graduating class. There are also a truck load of kids working at private firms earning less than 50k that were way to ashamed to report their salary. All law schools lie about their numbers, most of all the "Top 100."
This is entirely true, although I had not intended to launch into this further complication because 94K as a private firm average doesn't look all too unreasonable to me. T3 schools that claim a crazy high median must have to do some serious stat juking, and I think the under-reporting you mention is the prime form of stat juking, but I'm not convinced that Syracuse needed that much under-reporting to hit a 94K average salary for the 46% of (reporting) employed grads working for private firms. Likewise, I don't think they needed to do that much juking to hit a 75K overall average (among reporting grads). 75K, after all, is less than half the market rate for biglaw. Granted, this is all speculation, but my point is the stats don't look too crazy to me.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:55 am

MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
thexfactor wrote:Look at Syracuse. --LinkRemoved-- ... stats.aspx
How can the career center staff sleep at night?
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that the statistics from that page aren't misleading?
Yes. Honestly, that all looks pretty straight-forward and reasonable to me. Claiming that 46% of the employed grads of the Class of 2008 work for private firms and that the average (note: not median) alumnus in this group earns 94K actually seems perfectly reasonable. Surely some alumni landed big law gigs, which is what pulls the average up to 94K. People who don't work for a big law firm or a top regional firm almost certainly earn less than 94K, and I'd expect most of the grads who don't work for private firms (i.e.: 54% of the class) earn quite a bit less than 94K (supported by the stat that the overall average starting salary is 75K). 94K seems like a reasonable average for the 46% of the class that goes to private firms. I've seen some schools report some seriously massaged stats, and these stats don't look that juked to me.


Eh. I don't know about that. That's not 46%. That's 46% of the graduates who are reporting, which is far less than 46% of the total graduating class. There are also a truck load of kids working at private firms earning less than 50k that were way to ashamed to report their salary. All law schools lie about their numbers, most of all the "Top 100."
This is entirely true, although I had not intended to launch into this further complication because 94K as a private firm average doesn't look all too unreasonable to me. T3 schools that claim a crazy high median must have to do some serious stat juking, and I think the under-reporting you mention is the prime form of stat juking, but I'm not convinced that Syracuse needed that much under-reporting to hit a 94K average salary for the 46% of (reporting) employed grads working for private firms. Likewise, I don't think they needed to do that much juking to hit a 75K overall average (among reporting grads). 75K, after all, is less than half the market rate for biglaw. Granted, this is all speculation, but my point is the stats don't look too crazy to me.


No offense, but if you believe anything you just said, you know absolutely nothing of the profession at all. 94k is so far beyond what the average starting salary of a Syracuse grad could reasonably expect that its not even funny. The average starting salary in down state NY for grads of better schools is in the 40 to 60 k range excluding biglaw. Cuse places probably 10 (not percent 10 kids in biglaw). The rest are working in jobs ranging from 30 to 60k. That simply does not = a 94k private firm figure and certainly does not = a 75k overall, as most govt jobs start WELL below 60k (federal jobs are not for cuse grads).

I'm sorry, maybe you're trying to paint a better picture for yourself, but your numbers are way off.

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PDaddy
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their law school for fraud mis..

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:01 am

hoopsguy6 wrote:Poor and unemployed graduates suing an institution that employs hundreds of the top legal minds in the country? Can't imagine that working out too well.


Well, not so fast. First, this question has legs, and many of the top legal minds are asking it. Isn't it ironic that law schools are engaging in the very behavior that they would find reprehensible in admitted students, such as misrepresenting stats, withholding information, fraud, so on and so forth?

Certainly schools are misreporting and falsely advertising in order to lure students. "Fraudulent inducement" might be a possible claim, especially in cases where students have other choices of schools and may have committed to attend but are lured away with scholarships.

Law schools across the board are engaging in this behavior, and the argument can still be made that schools are luring students into poorer job prospects than anticipated. On the other hand, so much of a student's job access is dependent on the student himself, so that argument can go either way. But if students aren't even getting interviews, schools need to be held accountable for that. But how do we do that in this economy?

One way would be to ask schools to accurately report 5-10 year averages, so students can get a feel for long-term trends. The manner in which stats are reported is the key.

At the least, schools should be held to the same standard to which they hold students. And something has to be done about the fact that this clearly isn't happening. What happens to students who lie on their resume's, omit criminal charges or fudge their stats? They get bounced! Schools should face expulsion by the ABA if they lie.

If you don't care about this type of misrepresentation now, wait until you have kids and need to pick schools and colleges for them. Wait until your son or daughter has to pick a grad/professional school but winds up attending one that lies. You'll feel differently then.
Last edited by PDaddy on Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:20 am, edited 3 times in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:03 am

OP wrote:Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

No, because I was smart enough to not attend one. :lol:

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Grizz
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:27 am

Sauer Grapes wrote:I don't know about law schools, but it's happened at a college.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/08/03/ne ... index.html

I don't know how people like that live with themselves though. Frivolous.


2.7 GPA? She should get a 170+ LSAT and ED to UVA.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby whuts4lunch » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:53 am

rad law wrote:2.7 GPA? She should get a 170+ LSAT and ED to UVA.


lol

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Thirteen
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby Thirteen » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:06 am

thexfactor wrote:Just curious....

Has anyone thought about suing their law school for fraud, misrepresentation or unconscionability?
Many TTT law schools point out outrageous median/average salaries. Some LS s don't even tell you the percentage of people that reported to career services.

--ImageRemoved--

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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby najumobi » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:54 am

reasonable_man wrote:
No offense, but if you believe anything you just said, you know absolutely nothing of the profession at all. 94k is so far beyond what the average starting salary of a Syracuse grad could reasonably expect that its not even funny. The average starting salary in down state NY for grads of better schools is in the 40 to 60 k range excluding biglaw. Cuse places probably 10 (not percent 10 kids in biglaw). The rest are working in jobs ranging from 30 to 60k. That simply does not = a 94k private firm figure and certainly does not = a 75k overall, as most govt jobs start WELL below 60k (federal jobs are not for cuse grads).

I'm sorry, maybe you're trying to paint a better picture for yourself, but your numbers are way off.


the main reason i think syracuse is very deceitful is due to the fact that they don't report the percentage of their graduating students that are employed at the time of graduation. i find it questionable that they can get data from the graduates nine months after graduation when their grads have all dispersed, but can't get a figure for the percentage of students who have jobs lined up while those students are still in school in the weeks prior to graduation. this is a practice i have found to be common among tier 3 and tier 4 schools. also their reported number for the percentage of graduates in private sector reporting their salary seems to be merely the sum of the percentage of grads in law firms and in "business/industry"....schools like this seem to fight transparency tooth and nail....has it always been like this?

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Zapatero
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby Zapatero » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:58 am

jayzon wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:This thread is fucking retarded.

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James Bond
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby James Bond » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:00 am

ccs1702 wrote:
jayzon wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:This thread is fucking retarded.


as is going to a TTT

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PDaddy
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Re: Has anyone considered suing their TTT law school ?

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:18 am

najumobi wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
No offense, but if you believe anything you just said, you know absolutely nothing of the profession at all. 94k is so far beyond what the average starting salary of a Syracuse grad could reasonably expect that its not even funny. The average starting salary in down state NY for grads of better schools is in the 40 to 60 k range excluding biglaw. Cuse places probably 10 (not percent 10 kids in biglaw). The rest are working in jobs ranging from 30 to 60k. That simply does not = a 94k private firm figure and certainly does not = a 75k overall, as most govt jobs start WELL below 60k (federal jobs are not for cuse grads).

I'm sorry, maybe you're trying to paint a better picture for yourself, but your numbers are way off.


the main reason i think syracuse is very deceitful is due to the fact that they don't report the percentage of their graduating students that are employed at the time of graduation. i find it questionable that they can get data from the graduates nine months after graduation when their grads have all dispersed, but can't get a figure for the percentage of students who have jobs lined up while those students are still in school in the weeks prior to graduation. this is a practice i have found to be common among tier 3 and tier 4 schools. also their reported number for the percentage of graduates in private sector reporting their salary seems to be merely the sum of the percentage of grads in law firms and in "business/industry"....schools like this seem to fight transparency tooth and nail....has it always been like this?


This! And where there's smoke there's fire. It makes you wonder about those baristas all around the NY area. But they would never tell you they are law grads out of embarrassment. But to be fair, this supports the belief that law students do, in fact, feel ultimately responsible for their outcomes. Whether they want to be openly accountable is another story.




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