ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

(Study Tips, Dealing With Stress, Maintaining a Social Life, Financial Aid, Internships, Bar Exam, Careers in Law . . . )

What now?

Don't do it, graduate from LS in 2.5 years and realize an even larger debt while unemployed
68
46%
Return home to live with parents in quiet shame and despair until they disown me for being an abject failure
39
26%
Shoot myself in the head with a large caliber bullet
42
28%
 
Total votes: 149

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OperaSoprano
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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:13 am

:oops: You guys, stop! I'm really not.

I know Lxw didn't do this out of malice. I think he genuinely regrets doing it. I can't stay angry with him because I know he acted out of the same terror that animates all of us, but that doesn't change the fact that his prank was poopyheaded in the extreme. (I like that word. I think I shall appropriate it.)

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prezidentv8
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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:15 am

dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)


I'm in favor of Fail-Pass-High Pass, with a low cap on the high passes. It's not that everyone needs to get A's, but that (for various reasons I believe) the curve is unnecessary at this level, especially at a professional school. There are valid arguments against this point of view, but I tend to chalk them up to a different weighting of priorities. Plus I'm one of those types of people that looks at whatever is the established system and instantly gets critical. So ya know...attribute it to that. And the fact that I'm doing work at 3 AM in January.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:15 am

MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!

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D. H2Oman
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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:16 am

OS is Awesome

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby macattaq » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:20 am

Dwaterman86 wrote:OS is Awesome


+10,000

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:20 am

mallard wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)


Of course this is right. But it doesn't necessarily incent the sort of behavior or mindset that we might like.


That is true. But the lack of standardization among instructors would leave your GPA open to the impact of the random factor of who you got to have as a professor.

I'm not saying curve cannot be arbitrary as well. But it's surely not nearly as arbitrary as that.

I think the one credited conclusion here is that curve= bad for easy classes but great for hard classes. In the former case, lack of curve makes it possible for everyone to get an A rather than having professor arrive at grades via meticulous nitpicking whereas in the latter scenario, the curve assures that at least someone will succeed.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:24 am

dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)


<3 my darling.

If grades were not of such paramount importance to legal employers (and indeed, nearly the sole determining factor in who gets which job), perhaps it wouldn't matter so much. Is there really going to be that much difference in practical ability between a 3.5 student and a 3.7 student? My very dear L, an MSW student at my school, works as hard as I do, but she doesn't have to be paranoid about her grades. She won't be less of a therapist if she gets a B+ instead of an A- in some foundational course, and psych employers know that.

I am 100% in favor of a meritocracy, but there ought to be some non grade based ways of displaying merit. At the very least, given the psychological baggage attached to grades, the whole curve ought to be adjusted upward. Why torment people with C+s (or low passes) needlessly? We all had similar entering credentials relative to our classmates. We are all smart, dedicated, and hardworking. There is no one at my school who would not make a kick ass lawyer, and I suspect the same is true generally among our classmates.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:25 am

dresden doll wrote:
mallard wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)


Of course this is right. But it doesn't necessarily incent the sort of behavior or mindset that we might like.


That is true. But the lack of standardization among instructors would leave your GPA open to the impact of the random factor of who you got to have as a professor.

I'm not saying curve cannot be arbitrary as well. But it's surely not nearly as arbitrary as that.

I think the one credited conclusion here is that curve= bad for easy classes but great for hard classes. In the former case, lack of curve makes it possible for everyone to get an A rather than having professor arrive at grades via meticulous nitpicking whereas in the latter scenario, the curve assures that at least someone will succeed.


Yeah...in a funny way I wish my classes were substantively harder (rather than me just not having a clue how to write my exams). I've never felt so confident about my knowledge (perhaps minus Erie), but so uneasy about a grade, mainly because I was literally making stylistic guesses on the exam, and the questions asked either a) were policy based or b) had enough issues such that I couldn't imagine somebody completely whiffing. This scares me a little. Thank God I'm not only in it for the prestige and the money hahahaha.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:25 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)


<3 my darling.

If grades were not of such paramount importance to legal employers (and indeed, nearly the sole determining factor in who gets which job), perhaps it wouldn't matter so much. Is there really going to be that much difference in practical ability between a 3.5 student and a 3.7 student? My very dear L, an MSW student at my school, works as hard as I do, but she doesn't have to be paranoid about her grades. She won't be less of a therapist if she gets a B+ instead of an A- in some foundational course, and psych employers know that.

I am 100% in favor of a meritocracy, but there ought to be some non grade based ways of displaying merit. At the very least, given the psychological baggage attached to grades, the whole curve ought to be adjusted upward. Why torment people with C+s (or low passes) needlessly? We all had similar entering credentials relative to our classmates. We are all smart, dedicated, and hardworking. There is no one at my school who would not make a kick ass lawyer, and I suspect the same is true generally among our classmates.


You're thinkin along my lines.

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mallard
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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby mallard » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:25 am

I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
  • the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
  • the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
  • the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
  • the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
  • etc.
Last edited by mallard on Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:28 am

prezidentv8 wrote:MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!


Of course we are. We are all among the more notorious insomniacs of this board.

And people need to quit with the misguided notion that I am awesome. What I am is lucky, because I have all of you.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby macattaq » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:30 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!


Of course we are. We are all among the more notorious insomniacs of this board.

And people need to quit with the misguided notion that I am awesome. What I am is lucky, because I have all of you.


No, we are lucky because we have you.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:31 am

mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
[*]the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
[*]the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
[*]the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
[*]the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
[*]etc.


This is undoubtedly credited.

Frankly, I am not sure that curve-based world beats the curveless one. I merely meant to point out that injustices wouldn't necessarily go away if we abolished the curve.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:31 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!


We are all among the more notorious insomniacs of this board.



You said it.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby macattaq » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:33 am

dresden doll wrote:
mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
[*]the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
[*]the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
[*]the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
[*]the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
[*]etc.


This is undoubtedly credited.

Frankly, I am not sure that curve-based world beats the curveless one. I merely meant to point out that injustices wouldn't necessarily go away if we abolished the curve.


That's true. There still has to be some way of sorting people out in order to find the best potential employees. At a certain point, it doesn't really matter what is done to 'fix' the system because there will always be an injustice done to someone. I mean, employers can't interview everyone, and even doing that wouldn't give them all the information they need to know to make a good decision.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:53 am

macattaq wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
[*]the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
[*]the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
[*]the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
[*]the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
[*]etc.


This is undoubtedly credited.

Frankly, I am not sure that curve-based world beats the curveless one. I merely meant to point out that injustices wouldn't necessarily go away if we abolished the curve.


That's true. There still has to be some way of sorting people out in order to find the best potential employees. At a certain point, it doesn't really matter what is done to 'fix' the system because there will always be an injustice done to someone. I mean, employers can't interview everyone, and even doing that wouldn't give them all the information they need to know to make a good decision.


<3 you too.

You do make a good point here, in that if there are not enough desirable jobs to go around, no amount of fixing the system can prevent some students from having unfavorable outcomes. However, I believe the current system is designed to produce more grief than necessary. Mallard outlined the reasons for this with perfect clarity.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:14 pm

mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
  • the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
  • the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
  • the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
  • the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
  • etc.


TITCR. The other thing that people tend to forget is that curves aren't these horrible, monstrous, artificial instruments of torture - they are a natural phenomena. If you give a bunch of people a hard task, and then evaluate their performance, they are the ones that hand the professor a bell curve. All the professor and school do is turn the natural curve into grade letters writ spefific.

The rest of Mallard's points are super credited. 1L grades matter a ton, we get little feedback on how to get good 1L grades, we only have once chance, and we all know it's zero sum. Which does suck, but I'm still a curve apologist because it's organic and all-natural :P

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby YCrevolution » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:03 pm

..

Mal
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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby Mal » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:15 pm

OS is awesome (<3 from Canada).

I think the curve sucking is a function of the extreme repercussions for doing poorly, and not knowing how to do well.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby sawwaverunner » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:32 pm

Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:33 pm

sawwaverunner wrote:Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.

Are you suggesting OS is only relatively awesome??? GET OUT

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby YCrevolution » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:34 pm

..

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MTal
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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby MTal » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:37 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
sawwaverunner wrote:Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.

We should grade TLS on a curve, then. The bottom 20% (as judged by the mod team, of course) get banned.


Please keep your power-trip wet dreams out of this. Thx.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby MTal » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:38 pm

OS is awesome because she's one of the few admins that's nice to me.

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Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:42 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
sawwaverunner wrote:Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.

We should grade TLS on a curve, then. The bottom 20% (as judged by the mod team, of course) get banned.

You'd have to ban about 6770 members




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