Turning down judges

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Esc
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Esc » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:14 pm

art vandelay wrote:So, I've heard you're not supposed to turn down judicial internship offers from judges.

How is this enforceable? What happens if I turn one down? I mean, they don't pay or anything, so how come we are supposedly bound by them? If I really need money, and then a paid opportunity arises, am I supposed to disregard my need for money (which i need for things like food, etc) in favor of some arcane rule that says judges are not to be turned down?

Anyone?


UT CSO told me I had to accept if the offer was made to me. (As if!) Considering how much clout and how many connections judges have in the legal community, it would be foolish to piss one off by declining an offer.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Aeroplane » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:23 pm

Why all the fuss about judges? I'm waiting for some firm stuff to pan out, but if it doesn't, then I'll do something local & unpaid whether for a judge or not. It's not like judicial internships are the only other 1L gigs out there, and it doesn't seem like they confer major benefits or prestige points on those who do them in the way that post-grad clerkships do. I guess you might make some cool connections. Anything else I'm missing?

CCA
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby CCA » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:26 pm

I will have to ask my career services department about this. Does this mean that if you get multiple interview offers, you would have to try to schedule the less desirable judges later and then cancel if you get an offer from earlier interviews? It seems like it would get complicated.

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blackknight
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby blackknight » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:32 pm

If you did not want to work for them then why did you apply to them in the first place? and then take it one step further and interview? The judges feel like if they extend you an offer then they have invested their time in you through the hiring process. They then would get mad that you wasted their time if you do not accept.

Plus schools do not want you to reject an offer from a judge because it burns a bridge with that judge. When you reject an offer from a judge it messes that connection up for the school so that you are hurting future students as well as your classmates.

Esc
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Esc » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:33 pm

CCA wrote:I will have to ask my career services department about this. Does this mean that if you get multiple interview offers, you would have to try to schedule the less desirable judges later and then cancel if you get an offer from earlier interviews? It seems like it would get complicated.


exactly. I heard that some of the rising 3Ls who were applying for clerkships were screening their calls by area code on the day that all the judges on the hiring plan made offers, so as to avoid those they didn't want.

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dresden doll
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby dresden doll » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:37 pm

CCA wrote:I will have to ask my career services department about this. Does this mean that if you get multiple interview offers, you would have to try to schedule the less desirable judges later and then cancel if you get an offer from earlier interviews? It seems like it would get complicated.


Yes. It can and does get complicated. My classmate landed the first externship she interviewed for and had to cancel all other judge interviews she had signed up for.

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sayan
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby sayan » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:38 pm

Esc wrote:
CCA wrote:I will have to ask my career services department about this. Does this mean that if you get multiple interview offers, you would have to try to schedule the less desirable judges later and then cancel if you get an offer from earlier interviews? It seems like it would get complicated.


exactly. I heard that some of the rising 3Ls who were applying for clerkships were screening their calls by area code on the day that all the judges on the hiring plan made offers, so as to avoid those they didn't want.


Hah, genius.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Dick Whitman » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:38 pm

Esc wrote:
art vandelay wrote:So, I've heard you're not supposed to turn down judicial internship offers from judges.

How is this enforceable? What happens if I turn one down? I mean, they don't pay or anything, so how come we are supposedly bound by them? If I really need money, and then a paid opportunity arises, am I supposed to disregard my need for money (which i need for things like food, etc) in favor of some arcane rule that says judges are not to be turned down?

Anyone?


UT CSO told me I had to accept if the offer was made to me. (As if!) Considering how much clout and how many connections judges have in the legal community, it would be foolish to piss one off by declining an offer.


There are two terrible assumptions running rampant in this thread:

1) That judges aren't powerful and influential figures in the legal community; and
2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.

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dresden doll
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby dresden doll » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:40 pm

Dick Whitman wrote:2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.


I wasn't under the impression that working for one was particularly impressive, personally.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Aeroplane » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:49 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.


I wasn't under the impression that working for one was particularly impressive, personally.
+1. My understanding is that clerkships (federal at least) are impressive and very competitive, but 1L unpaid summers w/judges not so much. Clerkships result in a big resume boost for firms & academia, 1L summers not so. Clerkships result in bonuses (though maybe not ITE) but 1L summers not. A 1L judicial internship for summer might result in great connections, but I haven't heard that it is particularly impressive (although if it was a really big name judge like Posner I can see how it might be) and some judges hire w/o even waiting for grades.

Esc
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Esc » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:53 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.


I wasn't under the impression that working for one was particularly impressive, personally.


Neither was I, but I'd be willing to take pretty much any offer at this point.

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OperaAttorney
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby OperaAttorney » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:19 pm

Esc wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.


I wasn't under the impression that working for one was particularly impressive, personally.


Neither was I, but I'd be willing to take pretty much any offer at this point.


I'm sayin'. At this point the legal market is too finicky for me to rely on potential firm offers. And I want to remain in Austin, whose legal market is smaller than Dallas's or Houston's, this summer. If I get a judicial internship, I will accept the offer gladly, knowing that I can spend my semester studying and prepping for the spring musical.

Esc
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Esc » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:20 pm

OperaAttorney wrote:
Esc wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.


I wasn't under the impression that working for one was particularly impressive, personally.


Neither was I, but I'd be willing to take pretty much any offer at this point.


I'm sayin'. At this point the legal market is too finicky for me to rely on potential firm offers. And I want to remain in Austin, whose legal market is smaller than Dallas's or Houston's, this summer. If I get a judicial internship, I will accept the offer gladly, knowing that I can spend my semester studying and prepping for the spring musical.


Plus effing one.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Aeroplane » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:32 pm

betasteve wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.


I wasn't under the impression that working for one was particularly impressive, personally.
+1. My understanding is that clerkships (federal at least) are impressive and very competitive, but 1L unpaid summers w/judges not so much. Clerkships result in a big resume boost for firms & academia, 1L summers not so. Clerkships result in bonuses (though maybe not ITE) but 1L summers not. A 1L judicial internship for summer might result in great connections, but I haven't heard that it is particularly impressive (although if it was a really big name judge like Posner I can see how it might be) and some judges hire w/o even waiting for grades.

The consensus I've heard re: 1L summer "prestige" is:
Biglaw clerk
Fed agency paid summer
Judicial internship
PI internship
injury lawyer coffee fetcher
Yeah that roughly matches what I thought. FWIW I'm also gonna apply to some in-house depts. Dunno where they'd be on the list but I think it'd be good experience.

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sayan
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby sayan » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:32 pm

betasteve wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:2) That as such, working for one is pretty damn impressive. I wouldn't be holding off applying to anybody because I was relying on a 1L firm job.


I wasn't under the impression that working for one was particularly impressive, personally.
+1. My understanding is that clerkships (federal at least) are impressive and very competitive, but 1L unpaid summers w/judges not so much. Clerkships result in a big resume boost for firms & academia, 1L summers not so. Clerkships result in bonuses (though maybe not ITE) but 1L summers not. A 1L judicial internship for summer might result in great connections, but I haven't heard that it is particularly impressive (although if it was a really big name judge like Posner I can see how it might be) and some judges hire w/o even waiting for grades.

The consensus I've heard re: 1L summer "prestige" is:
Biglaw clerk
Fed agency paid summer
Judicial internship
PI internship
injury lawyer coffee fetcher


What about RA for a prof?

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OperaAttorney
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby OperaAttorney » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:34 pm

Esc wrote:
OperaAttorney wrote:
Esc wrote:Neither was I, but I'd be willing to take pretty much any offer at this point.


I'm sayin'. At this point the legal market is too finicky for me to rely on potential firm offers. And I want to remain in Austin, whose legal market is smaller than Dallas's or Houston's, this summer. If I get a judicial internship, I will accept the offer gladly, knowing that I can spend my semester studying and prepping for the spring musical.


Plus effing one.


Exactly.

Over the winter break, I had lunch with a lawyer friend who graduated from U Mich in the '80s. He shared that he had interned with a judge his 1L summer, despite having aced his first year of law school. The legal market was suffering then, though, as he recalls, the situation wasn't as dire as it is now.

Renzo
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Renzo » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:39 pm

sayan wrote:
betasteve wrote:The consensus I've heard re: 1L summer "prestige" is:
Biglaw clerk
Fed agency paid summer
Judicial internship
PI internship
injury lawyer coffee fetcher


What about RA for a prof?

RA goes at the bottom, but pays off in other ways (namely, really solid and personal recommendations, which can make/break a clerkship application and future academic career.

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OperaAttorney
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby OperaAttorney » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:41 pm

Esc wrote:
Plus effing one.


I'll also spend my semester selling my body on the corner of Dean Keeton and Guadalupe so that I can afford to live while providing free labor in the judge's chambers.

Esc
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Esc » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:48 pm

OperaAttorney wrote:
Esc wrote:
Plus effing one.


I'll also spend my semester selling my body on the corner of Dean Keeton and Guadalupe so that I can afford to live while providing free labor in the judge's chambers.


Too crowded, with small sidewalks and too many diesel fumes from passing buses. Dean Keeton and San Jac would be a much better spot. Good foot traffic with those little park areas providing plenty of romp room.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Aeroplane » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:06 am

betasteve wrote: Hmm.. that's tough...
I would say in between Judicial and PI... depending.. I mean.. you aren't going ot get hired to go in house (most likely), so it's just experience. I think this then depends on the actual type of work you get to do, and how valuable it will be...
Well I probably wouldn't be able to know the precise kind of work in advance. Honestly, a big part of the appeal would be that it's fairly well paid (though a lot less than the big firms). Plus I think it'd make good 2L firm interview conversation, client perspective and all that.

My priority list is (not advocating for others, just a function of my personal circumstance, preference, risk tolerance):
local biglaw
in-house corporate
very low-paid: small firm clerking, local gov't internships that pay min wage
Judicial Internship
PI

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OperaAttorney
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby OperaAttorney » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:14 am

Esc wrote:
OperaAttorney wrote:
Esc wrote:
Plus effing one.


I'll also spend my semester selling my body on the corner of Dean Keeton and Guadalupe so that I can afford to live while providing free labor in the judge's chambers.


Too crowded, with small sidewalks and too many diesel fumes from passing buses. Dean Keeton and San Jac would be a much better spot. Good foot traffic with those little park areas providing plenty of romp room.


Yes, that's what I thought at first. But I have a better chance at snagging tourists, most of whom love the Drag. And there are more cops near Dean Keeton and San Jac.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Turning down judges

Postby Dick Whitman » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:09 pm

I stand corrected. The beggers can't be choosers theme still holds, however.




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