Top Law Schools

Stats:

AA Male
162 lsat 3.1 ugpa
roughly top 5-10% after first semester (w/ 2 best papers)
currently at a one of the schools in log jam at the 30-35 spots

Are any of the holy trinity possible?

I have a hefty guaranteed scholarship at my current school so hys, because of their grading policy and prestige, are the only schools i'd consider taking on debt for.

To be honest, I really don't see it happening at any of the 3 :/

It would probably be worth it to apply, even to YLS, especially depending on what you mean by 'two best papers.' If you did something like writing a law review note or something extraordinary like that while in your first semester, then assuming there's faculty input on the transfer applicants as well, I could see YLS picking you up.

Ungrateful 0L wrote:Stats:

AA Male
162 lsat 3.1 ugpa
roughly top 5-10% after first semester (w/ 2 best papers)
currently at a one of the schools in log jam at the 30-35 spots

Are any of the holy trinity possible?

I have a hefty guaranteed scholarship at my current school so hys, because of their grading policy and prestige, are the only schools i'd consider taking on debt for.

If I were you I would shoot for HYS, but you might as well apply to CCN as well. As an AA male, your opportunities would still be pretty much great coming out of any of them too. (IMO, worth going into debt if you are willing to go into debt for HYS)

Of course thats just my opinion...

I'll echo what other folks have said. Harvard is the most likely. The URM boost for transfers obviously isn't the same as it is for regular applicants, but it's still there.

That said, there's going to be a difference between 5 and 10%.

I would think of adding the CCN in to your application list, particularly if you want to practice in NYC or Chicago. However, do NOT do the early decision for Chicago.

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'll echo what other folks have said. Harvard is the most likely. The URM boost for transfers obviously isn't the same as it is for regular applicants, but it's still there.

That said, there's going to be a difference between 5 and 10%.

I would think of adding the CCN in to your application list, particularly if you want to practice in NYC or Chicago. However, do NOT do the early decision for Chicago.

Great Advice

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'll echo what other folks have said. Harvard is the most likely. The URM boost for transfers obviously isn't the same as it is for regular applicants, but it's still there.

That said, there's going to be a difference between 5 and 10%.

I would think of adding the CCN in to your application list, particularly if you want to practice in NYC or Chicago. However, do NOT do the early decision for Chicago.

Why not? Just because it's binding or is there another reason?

My gpa probably puts me inside of 5% actually i'm .66 over the median, and from talking to 2/3L's .3 over the median has usually been top 10-15%. I suck at math, and I dont want to give myself away so a little hypothetical:

Lets say I go to Ohio State which has a curve of 2.7 (I think) and ended up with a 3.36. Roughly where am I ranked?


I'm just not sure about going to any other school. I don't mean to sound lazy, but I don't want to have to kill myslef for the nex 2 years. HYS's grading policy allows me to relax a bit. I'll pay 80k for peace of mind. I may very well throw in apps at gulc, columbia, chicago, and nyu, I just dont think i'll leave for anyone but hys.

I did one pretty spectacular thing this semester, i'd have rec letters from 2 yls alums, and by best papers I meant cali awards.

betasteve wrote:

Ungrateful 0L wrote:My gpa probably puts me inside of 5% actually i'm .66 over the median, and from talking to 2/3L's .3 over the median has usually been top 10-15%. I suck at math, and I dont want to give myself away so a little hypothetical:

Lets say I go to Ohio State which has a curve of 2.7 (I think) and ended up with a 3.36. Roughly where am I ranked?


I'm just not sure about going to any other school. I don't mean to sound lazy, but I don't want to have to kill myslef for the nex 2 years. HYS's grading policy allows me to relax a bit. I'll pay 80k for peace of mind. I may very well throw in apps at gulc, columbia, chicago, and nyu, I just dont think i'll leave for anyone but hys.

I did one pretty spectacular thing this semester, i'd have rec letters from 2 yls alums, and by best papers I meant cali awards.

Also note, Arrow suggests that there may be ability to get scholarships from your current school. This may be beneficial if you are in a secondary market to which your school places well into, and you want to work there. This may allow you to secure solid employment in the market you choose with far less debt.

My current school has "maxed out their contribution" so to speak. Anymore money and they'd be paying my rent (do schools do that?)

I really don't mind practicing in the market my school is in. I do really want to be a federal clerk.

Ungrateful 0L wrote:My gpa probably puts me inside of 5% actually i'm .66 over the median, and from talking to 2/3L's .3 over the median has usually been top 10-15%. I suck at math, and I dont want to give myself away so a little hypothetical:

Lets say I go to Ohio State which has a curve of 2.7 (I think) and ended up with a 3.36. Roughly where am I ranked?

I'm just not sure about going to any other school. I don't mean to sound lazy, but I don't want to have to kill myslef for the nex 2 years. HYS's grading policy allows me to relax a bit. I'll pay 80k for peace of mind. I may very well throw in apps at gulc, columbia, chicago, and nyu, I just dont think i'll leave for anyone but hys.

I did one pretty spectacular thing this semester, i'd have rec letters from 2 yls alums, and by best papers I meant cali awards.

I think a 3.36 on a 4.0 scale is in the 6-8% range.

If you want to work at a big firm in the region where your school is strong, you're most likely set without transferring. If you want to teach, transferring to a top school makes sense.

betasteve wrote:

Ungrateful 0L wrote:

betasteve wrote:

Ungrateful 0L wrote:My gpa probably puts me inside of 5% actually i'm .66 over the median, and from talking to 2/3L's .3 over the median has usually been top 10-15%. I suck at math, and I dont want to give myself away so a little hypothetical:

Lets say I go to Ohio State which has a curve of 2.7 (I think) and ended up with a 3.36. Roughly where am I ranked?


I'm just not sure about going to any other school. I don't mean to sound lazy, but I don't want to have to kill myslef for the nex 2 years. HYS's grading policy allows me to relax a bit. I'll pay 80k for peace of mind. I may very well throw in apps at gulc, columbia, chicago, and nyu, I just dont think i'll leave for anyone but hys.

I did one pretty spectacular thing this semester, i'd have rec letters from 2 yls alums, and by best papers I meant cali awards.

Also note, Arrow suggests that there may be ability to get scholarships from your current school. This may be beneficial if you are in a secondary market to which your school places well into, and you want to work there. This may allow you to secure solid employment in the market you choose with far less debt.

My current school has "maxed out their contribution" so to speak. Anymore money and they'd be paying my rent (do schools do that?)

I really don't mind practicing in the market my school is in. I do really want to be a federal clerk.

I don't know specifically about how your school places clerks, however my guess is that with a very high ranking, law review and such, you'd be ok. However, if that's what you really want to do... Is it something you want to do for 80 grand (given that most clerkship bonuses are 25-30k for clerkships, and loss of income for first year is about, what another 60k... (160k salary (assuming market) vs. 70k clerkship salary (probably way high) + 30k bonus). So for 80k in direct cost and 60k in opportunity cost, you gain a a clerkship (assuming you can't get one in current position and definitely get one in transferred position). I'm not saying this is bad, just maybe something to consider.

Also, I think some schools give living stipends, but they are much harder to get because they actually cost the school money as opposed to just them not getting money.

Yeah i've thought of all of this...I'm with you about just staying. I would like the prestige of another school, but I also know I'll be perfectly happy in life if I graduated from my current one.

stinger35 wrote:

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'll echo what other folks have said. Harvard is the most likely. The URM boost for transfers obviously isn't the same as it is for regular applicants, but it's still there.

That said, there's going to be a difference between 5 and 10%.

I would think of adding the CCN in to your application list, particularly if you want to practice in NYC or Chicago. However, do NOT do the early decision for Chicago.

Why not? Just because it's binding or is there another reason?

Just because it is binding. UChicago is a great school, and I think anyone who has the opportunity to transfer here, should.

Unless they could transfer in to HYS.

The problem with Chicago ED, which I realized way too late, is that numbers that make you competative for UChicago make you have at least a chance at HYS. In my case, had I not locked myself in to Chicago based on first semester, after second semester (where my GPA actually went up a fair amount,) I probably would be at Harvard atm. Chicago is a great school, this allows me to live close to my family and will make 2L summer/transition out of law school in to the job force much easier as a practical matter. I still can't believe I'm here, I always feel like I am the biggest idiot in the room--I felt that way at Wisconsin, and I'm pretty sure I just wouldn't have been able to look anyone at Harvard in the eye, logic or not.

That said... it still isn't Harvard or Yale. I honestly believe we're academically equal to Stanford, and S probably doesn't carry much further in Chicago than UChicago does, but I could be in 70 degree weather atm instead of (-1 with wind chill.) Not to mention, I think Harvard considers giving need-based aid even to transfer students, taking parental income in to account (found that out AFTER I applied to Chicago)--had I gotten in to Harvard, I would have gotten the maximum amount of need-based aid they have available for transfers, more than likely.

All hindsight, but I really do recommend shying away from UChicago's ED program, in OP's situation.

betasteve wrote:

Ungrateful 0L wrote:
Yeah i've thought of all of this...I'm with you about just staying. I would like the prestige of another school, but I also know I'll be perfectly happy in life if I graduated from my current one.

My personal advice would be to not transfer if the only thing you are getting in exchange is prestige. If you can secure the type of employment you want by staying (or the balance of risk tips dramatically to the side of staying), then prestige is just not worth it. After you are in a job, what is going to matter is your performance, not the name on your degree (unless, possibly, you have political goals).

Honestly, I know a lot of people that were toward the top (read: graded on to law review, which only happens for about 4%) of the Wisconsin class, who got nothing through OCI.

Things should be better for C/O 2012 than it was for us, and giving up a full ride is tough (though I did make almost the same move, considering my tuition was $14k a year, and they would have given me some "please stay" money, probably getting me to around $5k/year for tuition.) I wouldn't recommend giving it up for Georgetown. If you get HYS, though, I would take the plunge without giving it a second thought. If you want to practice in NYC, I would take NYU/Columbia without a second thought, and if you want to be in Chicago, I would take Chicago without giving it a second thought.

I have no desire to work in NYC or Chicago (especially not Chicago). Honestly i'm just being a prestige whore...I really do believe that my employment prospects will be just fine if I am able to maintain my current position. HYS, especially HY for me, is just a place that is so far above anything else. I want to at least see if I can even get an invitation to what I view as the top of the mountain.

n/m

thesealocust wrote:

upgrade wrote:

Ungrateful 0L wrote:My gpa probably puts me inside of 5% actually i'm .66 over the median, and from talking to 2/3L's .3 over the median has usually been top 10-15%. I suck at math, and I dont want to give myself away so a little hypothetical:

Lets say I go to Ohio State which has a curve of 2.7 (I think) and ended up with a 3.36. Roughly where am I ranked?

I'm just not sure about going to any other school. I don't mean to sound lazy, but I don't want to have to kill myslef for the nex 2 years. HYS's grading policy allows me to relax a bit. I'll pay 80k for peace of mind. I may very well throw in apps at gulc, columbia, chicago, and nyu, I just dont think i'll leave for anyone but hys.

I did one pretty spectacular thing this semester, i'd have rec letters from 2 yls alums, and by best papers I meant cali awards.

I think a 3.36 on a 4.0 scale is in the 6-8% range.

If you want to work at a big firm in the region where your school is strong, you're most likely set without transferring. If you want to teach, transferring to a top school makes sense.

I'm not a mathematician, but I have a hard time believing that a 3.36 is that high a rank, even on a B- curve...

According to this info on Ohio State: http://www.bcgsearch.com/pdf/BCG_Law_Sc ... e_2009.pdf 30% of the grades given out are in the A range, which makes it seem super unlikely that a 3.36 (i.e. a B+ average) would be better than top 10%? Also, Ohio State looks like it curves to a 3.0...

Perhaps OSU does curve to a 3.0 now, that would better align with the number of A range grades you quoted. I chose OSU just as an example, and my gpa is not really a 3.36. As I stated in the post you quoted my gpa is .66 over the curve. So if my hypothetical school of choice, in this case OSU, did actually curve to a 3.0 my gpa would be a 3.66. (although I don't know if a rough translation of that sort really works...)


I don't want to say too much and out myself...

H transfer here. Couple thoughts:

ToTransferOrNot wrote: The problem with Chicago ED, which I realized way too late, is that numbers that make you competative for UChicago make you have at least a chance at HYS. In my case, had I not locked myself in to Chicago based on first semester, after second semester (where my GPA actually went up a fair amount,) I probably would be at Harvard atm. Chicago is a great school, this allows me to live close to my family and will make 2L summer/transition out of law school in to the job force much easier as a practical matter. I still can't believe I'm here, I always feel like I am the biggest idiot in the room--I felt that way at Wisconsin, and I'm pretty sure I just wouldn't have been able to look anyone at Harvard in the eye, logic or not.

TTON without a doubt would have gotten in at Harvard. If you end up top 5% at a top 30, apply to H. Of the small sample of people I know that transferred from T25-40, most were top 3% and above, but I don't know about AA boost. I don't know the whole H transfer class, but all the people I know who transferred in this year are not URMs. H also will take multiple people from the same school, so even if you know of someone else from your school who is applying, still apply.

That said... it still isn't Harvard or Yale. I honestly believe we're academically equal to Stanford, and S probably doesn't carry much further in Chicago than UChicago does, but I could be in 70 degree weather atm instead of (-1 with wind chill.) Not to mention, I think Harvard considers giving need-based aid even to transfer students, taking parental income in to account (found that out AFTER I applied to Chicago)--had I gotten in to Harvard, I would have gotten the maximum amount of need-based aid they have available for transfers, more than likely.

I know of transfers who received more than 20K in need based aid. Also, no grades at HLS other than High Pass, Pass, and Low Pass. Yale seems to only take T14 law review people.

thesealocust wrote:I'm not a mathematician, but I have a hard time believing that a 3.36 is that high a rank, even on a B- curve...

I used μ = 2.7, σ = .4333 (estimate from (4-2.7)/3). I know there are errors in making these assumptions, but if there is a huge error maybe someone can point it out.