Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

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daesonesb
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby daesonesb » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:36 pm

You sound like the kind of person who is easily discouraged and dissuaded from their goals by the first signs of difficulty. So yeah... you should probably throw in the towel, because things only get harder after graduation. Or so I hear :|

awesomepossum
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby awesomepossum » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:38 pm

I would also like to stay in NYC because I've lived here for the past ten years, so the job would hopefully be here or at least in Westchester or somewhere commutable.

I don't really have anywhere else to go.


I think that's good and bad. Fordham obviously places better in NYC than anywhere else. On the other hand, NYC is really, really expensive AND the market is tight because everyone and their mother from the top ten schools snatch up all the jobs.

I really think that a good talk with career services and financial aid is in your best interest.

1Lpanic
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby 1Lpanic » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:39 pm

I'm just trying to be realistic because I know of the realities of paying off debt (still have undergraduate debt I've been paying off for ten years and that's now deferred), so I want to make sure that I would be able to pay off the debt I continue to accrue if I continue. If I've already shot myself in the foot by doing too poorly to get a good job, it seems like it makes sense to drop out and cut my losses if there it will be nearly impossible to get a job or pay off 210k.

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daesonesb
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby daesonesb » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:43 pm

1Lpanic wrote:I'm just trying to be realistic because I know of the realities of paying off debt (still have undergraduate debt I've been paying off for ten years and that's now deferred), so I want to make sure that I would be able to pay off the debt I continue to accrue if I continue. If I've already shot myself in the foot by doing too poorly to get a good job, it seems like it makes sense to drop out and cut my losses if there it will be nearly impossible to get a job or pay off 210k.


You've been at law school for one semester, and already you are considering dropping out. Not because you don't like it (which would be a good reason), but solely based off the B you got in one class.

Stop a moment and think about that. You're going to need more resolve than this to continue on down the road you've chosen.

1Lpanic
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby 1Lpanic » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:09 pm

Point taken. I honestly just really didn't feel good about the other two exams and think they must be worse than the one exam I felt great about (which I only got a B on). I won't know for sure until I get the grades, but I really felt much worse about them. Property I felt fully prepared for and thought the multiple choice was easy and that I brought out good points in my essays. Sigh.

If I would be unable to pay off my loans if I continue with grades below Top 50%, this does seem like a reasonable reason for dropping out to me.

untitled
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby untitled » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:13 pm

How/where did you get your grade so early?

1Lpanic
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby 1Lpanic » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:15 pm

It is posted on my.fordham.edu. None of my other grades are posted yet.

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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby 1Lpanic » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:42 pm

Will talk to career services when I come back but I'm a little worried they won't be realistic since I'm sure they'd want be to stay at the school and keep paying tuition.

Connelly
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby Connelly » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:46 pm

Your perception of your exams' difficulty will likely have little bearing on how you actually did, especially during your first semester. You are graded on a curve, so if perception matters at all, your perception relative to your classmates' is all that would matter, and your two remaining exams could have felt more difficult to your classmates as well. I always hate exams that feel "easy," because they are likely going to have very tight curves, since a lot of people probably found the exams easy. It should feel difficult to get out all of the issues and develop them properly. If it feels easy to do so, I am sure I missed something.

Many people do poorly the first semester only to do much better the second semester. Assuming you did poorly, you don't even know why yet, so there is no way to know whether you can improve your grades. Get your grades, talk to your professors, and then figure this out.

I also don't believe in weeping and gnashing of teeth being the only exit options for below median Fordham students.

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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby 3LWisdom » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:30 pm

I'm a fellow Fordham Law student. I understand your panic. It's normal. It's also not necessary. First, do you have an upper class mentor? If not, get one. Second, money is a valid concern, and loans can seem crushing. There are many avenues of loan relief these days. Now is not the time to worry about this. Regarding your grade — law school is much easier to deal with if you accept this reality: you are NOT the smartest person in your class. As said in Highlander, "there can be only one". Also, with a B in property I can safely say that your are NOT the dumbest person (apologies for the word "dumb" -- it's used only for prose purposes here) in your class. Again, see Highlander reference. But even if you were at the bottom, remember that relativism is relevant here. You're in a top 30 law school. Now, personally, I've met and know some crazy smart people at 3rd tier law schools who can show even the ivy leaguers a thing or two about lawyering, so I don't put much stock in the rankings. But nevertheless, at some point in the application process your combined GPA and LSAT score was (theoretically) better than all the students at 170 other law schools. And keep in mind, there are plenty of students there who get Bs, too. My point is: law school is not a race, it's a marathon. More than that, and to add more metaphors, your law career is a story yet unwritten. If it's what you want to do, don't close the book yet. If you want better grades (grades do matter to some people) don't quit -- get help instead. Talk to a 2L or 3L and ask them the help you understand something better. Better yet, before exam time, get a tutor and help yourself LEARN, not win. That's why we're supposed to be at law school in the first place. Students get Bs and that's okay. I'm reminded of a Fordham professor who told us this story: When he was a student at Harvard Law he struggled with an upper level course. His friend told him not to panic and the night before the exam they stayed up all night and his friend tutored him. At the exam, my professor ended up getting an A and his tutor/friend got a B. My professor went on to a law firm, and is now...well, a professor. His tutor/friend moved to Hollywood and became an award winner television writer. After telling us that story my professor's sage advice was this: "Don't worry too much about your grade. It turns out that if you get an A you become a professor and if you get a B, you become a successful Hollywood writer." The point is doing your best. That's all for now from me. If you still want help, I'm around school and can arrange to meet you and provide whatever assistance I can. Good luck on your other classes!

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jcl2
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby jcl2 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:10 pm

3LWisdom wrote:I'm a fellow Fordham Law student. I understand your panic. It's normal. It's also not necessary. First, do you have an upper class mentor? If not, get one. Second, money is a valid concern, and loans can seem crushing. There are many avenues of loan relief these days. Now is not the time to worry about this. Regarding your grade — law school is much easier to deal with if you accept this reality: you are NOT the smartest person in your class. As said in Highlander, "there can be only one". Also, with a B in property I can safely say that your are NOT the dumbest person (apologies for the word "dumb" -- it's used only for prose purposes here) in your class. Again, see Highlander reference. But even if you were at the bottom, remember that relativism is relevant here. You're in a top 30 law school. Now, personally, I've met and know some crazy smart people at 3rd tier law schools who can show even the ivy leaguers a thing or two about lawyering, so I don't put much stock in the rankings. But nevertheless, at some point in the application process your combined GPA and LSAT score was (theoretically) better than all the students at 170 other law schools. And keep in mind, there are plenty of students there who get Bs, too. My point is: law school is not a race, it's a marathon. More than that, and to add more metaphors, your law career is a story yet unwritten. If it's what you want to do, don't close the book yet. If you want better grades (grades do matter to some people) don't quit -- get help instead. Talk to a 2L or 3L and ask them the help you understand something better. Better yet, before exam time, get a tutor and help yourself LEARN, not win. That's why we're supposed to be at law school in the first place. Students get Bs and that's okay. I'm reminded of a Fordham professor who told us this story: When he was a student at Harvard Law he struggled with an upper level course. His friend told him not to panic and the night before the exam they stayed up all night and his friend tutored him. At the exam, my professor ended up getting an A and his tutor/friend got a B. My professor went on to a law firm, and is now...well, a professor. His tutor/friend moved to Hollywood and became an award winner television writer. After telling us that story my professor's sage advice was this: "Don't worry too much about your grade. It turns out that if you get an A you become a professor and if you get a B, you become a successful Hollywood writer." The point is doing your best. That's all for now from me. If you still want help, I'm around school and can arrange to meet you and provide whatever assistance I can. Good luck on your other classes!


Yeah, if you go to Harvard.

tarheel87
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby tarheel87 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:14 pm

3LWisdom wrote:I'm a fellow Fordham Law student. I understand your panic. It's normal. It's also not necessary. First, do you have an upper class mentor? If not, get one. Second, money is a valid concern, and loans can seem crushing. There are many avenues of loan relief these days. Now is not the time to worry about this. Regarding your grade — law school is much easier to deal with if you accept this reality: you are NOT the smartest person in your class. As said in Highlander, "there can be only one". Also, with a B in property I can safely say that your are NOT the dumbest person (apologies for the word "dumb" -- it's used only for prose purposes here) in your class. Again, see Highlander reference. But even if you were at the bottom, remember that relativism is relevant here. You're in a top 30 law school. Now, personally, I've met and know some crazy smart people at 3rd tier law schools who can show even the ivy leaguers a thing or two about lawyering, so I don't put much stock in the rankings. But nevertheless, at some point in the application process your combined GPA and LSAT score was (theoretically) better than all the students at 170 other law schools. And keep in mind, there are plenty of students there who get Bs, too. My point is: law school is not a race, it's a marathon. More than that, and to add more metaphors, your law career is a story yet unwritten. If it's what you want to do, don't close the book yet. If you want better grades (grades do matter to some people) don't quit -- get help instead. Talk to a 2L or 3L and ask them the help you understand something better. Better yet, before exam time, get a tutor and help yourself LEARN, not win. That's why we're supposed to be at law school in the first place. Students get Bs and that's okay. I'm reminded of a Fordham professor who told us this story: When he was a student at Harvard Law he struggled with an upper level course. His friend told him not to panic and the night before the exam they stayed up all night and his friend tutored him. At the exam, my professor ended up getting an A and his tutor/friend got a B. My professor went on to a law firm, and is now...well, a professor. His tutor/friend moved to Hollywood and became an award winner television writer. After telling us that story my professor's sage advice was this: "Don't worry too much about your grade. It turns out that if you get an A you become a professor and if you get a B, you become a successful Hollywood writer." The point is doing your best. That's all for now from me. If you still want help, I'm around school and can arrange to meet you and provide whatever assistance I can. Good luck on your other classes!


Wow, dare I say that this was motivational? TLS is so often doom and gloom and constant bitching about how awful life and school and the job market is. I actually enjoyed reading a little optimism. Of course I give this thread about 10 more minutes before people come in talking about how fucked you are. But for the record I don't think you're fucked, course I am a mere 0L.

NYVA311
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby NYVA311 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:19 pm

Relax, you go to Fordham, you'll get a good job. Maybe not Big Law, but a well-paying job. And how do you have 210K in loans? That's a lot..

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A'nold
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby A'nold » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:22 pm

Most people on here (see that I said most) are naive when it comes to the real world. For example, dropping out and "getting into advertising" is so horrific a prospect you really cannot imagine how much you will ultimately regret dropping out of Fordham. I speak from experience on this topic. Once you throw yourself out into the cold, hard working world and realize you cannot find anything but temp jobs and the prospect of "working your way up" is a 10 year plan of hell dealing with incompetent middle-management with the only prospect being sticking it out for only a couple more years so you can land that 35k a year dream job with another company where you work 60 hours a week doing the worst crap imaginable, you will dream of graduating from Fordham below median with 210k student loan debt that you can use IBR to help pay back.

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CE2JD
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby CE2JD » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:24 pm

I really don't think it's that hard to find a 35k per year paying job. My wife found such employment in CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA of all places in 1 month, and this during probably the worst part of the recession for the job market.

She has a liberal arts degree from a TTTT undergrad.

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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby General Tso » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:30 pm

A'nold wrote:Most people on here (see that I said most) are naive when it comes to the real world. For example, dropping out and "getting into advertising" is so horrific a prospect you really cannot imagine how much you will ultimately regret dropping out of Fordham. I speak from experience on this topic. Once you throw yourself out into the cold, hard working world and realize you cannot find anything but temp jobs and the prospect of "working your way up" is a 10 year plan of hell dealing with incompetent middle-management with the only prospect being sticking it out for only a couple more years so you can land that 35k a year dream job with another company where you work 60 hours a week doing the worst crap imaginable, you will dream of graduating from Fordham below median with 210k student loan debt that you can use IBR to help pay back.


I kind of agree with this. I mean, you are still going to a great school. The debt is killer but I still think that you will get a ~60-70k+ offer somewhere if you finish around median. Don't drop out, at least not yet. Try a different approach next semester and if your grades are still low then reconsider.

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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:31 pm

daesonesb wrote:You sound like the kind of person who is easily discouraged and dissuaded from their goals by the first signs of difficulty. So yeah... you should probably throw in the towel, because things only get harder after graduation. Or so I hear :|


:roll: Please, spare us. There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about OP's question.

I think the question re: whether you're biglaw or bust is pretty credited. If you're not stuck on firm job, you may yet do well for yourself. I would personally be inclined to stick it out for another semester and drop out before the 2L year if my results remained the same, but I can totally see not wanting to pay another semester's worth of tuition.

Wait for your other grades to come before you do anything else, though. I have heard many a time that people who nailed an exam leave the room persuaded they screwed it up badly. (Vice versa holds as well, obviously). You might be one such case for all you know. If you aren't, you'd do well to speak to professors as AP recommends. Evaluate your strategy following those conversations and asses the likelihood of being able to improve in coming months as best as you can. Then make a decision.

I feel for you and I wish you good luck.

NYVA311
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby NYVA311 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:33 pm

CE2JD wrote:I really don't think it's that hard to find a 35k per year paying job. My wife found such employment in CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA of all places in 1 month, and this during probably the worst part of the recession for the job market.

She has a liberal arts degree from a TTTT undergrad.


I think it depends on what you're willing to do and where you're willing to relocate to as well though. Charlottesville is a nice place to go to school, but I couldn't imagine living and working there otherwise, it's in the mountains. Finding a decent job in an area you're satisfied with may be a bit tougher, while finding a job in a less desirable area may be easier. Who knows though, I'm not searching for a job right now so I don't have much insight to provide.

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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:39 pm

OP, I was not going to open this thread, because my roommate informed me that our grades were starting to post, and I've been afraid to look all day. Clearly, you're braver than I am. I'm not going near My Fordham because I will throw up if I look.

That said, even if you wanted biglaw, one B will not preclude you from getting it. You take 16 credits per semester (we take 11), and if the rest of your grades are above median, you could be in a very good place.

If you don't want biglaw, IBR will help you repay your debt, and I'm going to kill AP for the magic eight ball shtick. If you want to do something PI related, our LRAP is not T14 level, but it is more than sufficient. It will make five years of IBR payments for us if we work for a nonprofit.

My roommate is back. She says I am being ridiculous and need to take my own advice about the effect of one grade. It's more psychological than anything else. I would not drop out unless you have determined that you no longer want to be a lawyer.

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JazzOne
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby JazzOne » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:42 pm

Enough advice. Anyone care to debate whether or not OP is a troll?

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General Tso
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby General Tso » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:43 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:OP, I was not going to open this thread, because my roommate informed me that our grades were starting to post, and I've been afraid to look all day. Clearly, you're braver than I am. I'm not going near My Fordham because I will throw up if I look.

That said, even if you wanted biglaw, one B will not preclude you from getting it. You take 16 credits per semester (we take 11), and if the rest of your grades are above median, you could be in a very good place.

If you don't want biglaw, IBR will help you repay your debt, and I'm going to kill AP for the magic eight ball shtick. If you want to do something PI related, our LRAP is not T14 level, but it is more than sufficient. It will make five years of IBR payments for us if we work for a nonprofit.

My roommate is back. She says I am being ridiculous and need to take my own advice about the effect of one grade. It's more psychological than anything else. I would not drop out unless you have determined that you no longer want to be a lawyer.


do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:44 pm

This thread is reigniting my grades panic. I may need to bow out.

I reiterate my good luck wishes for you, OP. I really hope it works out; like I said, I feel for you, especially since I'm really risk averse myself.

1Lpanic
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby 1Lpanic » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:45 pm

Thanks everyone for the advice. I really hope my remaining two grades are higher than a B, but I'm not confident. I will keep you guys posted.

And no, I'm not a troll. I just preferred not to use my other TLS username which has more identifying information since I know my classmates use this site :/

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A'nold
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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby A'nold » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:55 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:OP, I was not going to open this thread, because my roommate informed me that our grades were starting to post, and I've been afraid to look all day. Clearly, you're braver than I am. I'm not going near My Fordham because I will throw up if I look.

That said, even if you wanted biglaw, one B will not preclude you from getting it. You take 16 credits per semester (we take 11), and if the rest of your grades are above median, you could be in a very good place.

If you don't want biglaw, IBR will help you repay your debt, and I'm going to kill AP for the magic eight ball shtick. If you want to do something PI related, our LRAP is not T14 level, but it is more than sufficient. It will make five years of IBR payments for us if we work for a nonprofit.

My roommate is back. She says I am being ridiculous and need to take my own advice about the effect of one grade. It's more psychological than anything else. I would not drop out unless you have determined that you no longer want to be a lawyer.


This is very credited. If the only reason you went to law school was for biglaw then by all means drop out. But if you find that being a lawyer would be a satisfying career, DO NOT DROP OUT. Trust me (some random internet poster 8) ), you will regret it. I don't know how many people here know my background, but I made a very similar mistake a few years ago. Being a lawyer is what I was meant to do. If you would be just as happy being an accountant (something I did and hated more than anything), drop out, get an accounting certificate, land an entry level accounts payable position, then work on getting your CPA through the years. This is what I did and hated every minute of it. Being a lawyer, at least to me, is on a whole different level than most careers. You are constantly seeing new things, are always on your toes, get to use your brain to solve complex issues, is a universally respectable career, and the list goes on and on. Sorry to ramble but Opera is right on here.

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Re: Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out?

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:58 pm

1Lpanic wrote:Thanks everyone for the advice. I really hope my remaining two grades are higher than a B, but I'm not confident. I will keep you guys posted.

And no, I'm not a troll. I just preferred not to use my other TLS username which has more identifying information since I know my classmates use this site :/


I know you aren't a troll. I won't speculate about who you are because I don't want to know anyone else's grades, but please believe me that you will be fine. Congrats on your courage for looking. My hands are still shaking. You are going to be fine. One B is not bad. At least you looked, which is more than I can bring myself to do.

False alarm for me. None of my grades are up. If your other two grades were at least B+s, you will still be above median. I just calculated it out. You could also get two Bs and an A- and be above median. Take comfort that we have no grade inflation. Top 10% is only just above a 3.5.




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