Top Law Schools

Edited -- my joke made it sound like I endorsed the above post. I do not.

AMEN 2807!

But I must also add, that I have a 31 year old friend. MBA. Psych undergrad. Works full time. Married. Kids. Etc. Really quite succesful in life but it wasn't enough.
So, he's going medical school, taking ALL the pre-req science classes and not at all daunted by the prospect. At your age, still an option and the pay is easily 200K. If I were your age, that's what I would do. But, alas, I'm not...

I'm sorry OP, I never really get pissed about a poster but jeez, chill out for a second and listen to reason. Stop thinking that a "50k" job is all you will ever have. You will likely be making 100k+ w/in 5 years or so. If you think you regret paying sticker at Fordham, trust me, you have no idea what true regret will be if you drop out right now and have to pay 40k in student loans while trying to find a job in this economy. Even if you, LUCKILY, find a job making 30k right now, it will have little upside and you will be paying off a crap load of debt with no IBR and trying to live in NYC. OP, you will literally screw yourself over if you do this. If you stay, take on 200k in loans, you will most likely have a good career in law and be making serious money 10 years down the road. If you drop out, get ready to experience hell on earth for the next 5 years or so. You are safely in school right now, even though taking out loans, and are going to a very respected school. Do not blow this opportunity.

a'nold has a good point. I know grads of TTT level schools who get out into the world and in a couple of years are billing $400/hr and are very happy.

Snooker wrote:a'nold has a good point. I know grads of TTT level schools who get out into the world and in a couple of years are billing $400/hr and are very happy.

In a couple of years? I really wonder how likely an outcome this is. More than a couple of partners at my previous firm billed out $450/hr. This wasn't a rinky dink operation. It was an IP boutique that starts associates out at $160k.

I suppose a better way of putting it would be $200 after a couple years and after establishing himself, $400.

I've heard that competitive firms will start associates at $160k regardless of the partners' billing rate, no matter if it's $1,000 or $450, which is another interesting point.

Snooker wrote:I suppose a better way of putting it would be $200 after a couple years and after establishing himself, $400.

I've heard that competitive firms will start associates at $160k regardless of the partners' billing rate, no matter if it's $1,000 or $450, which is another interesting point.

$160K was called "market rate" because it was the standard rate that the biggest firms in NYC offered to attract new talent, and other firms had to match it in order to keep up. However, when the economy tanked this started dropping and firms started threatening to change their hiring models entirely, so until the economy recovers it's hard to tell what to expect.

Snooker wrote:I suppose a better way of putting it would be $200 after a couple years and after establishing himself, $400.

I've heard that competitive firms will start associates at $160k regardless of the partners' billing rate, no matter if it's $1,000 or $450, which is another interesting point.

Right. But I still don't see the point of bringing up billing rates. What matters is what the firm chooses to pay associates.

When considering the long run, the best indicator of a student's prospects are long run salaries. Most people get booted out of big law, anyway, and are back to billing small firm rates.

By the way, nice cowboy hat coordination.

n/m

Snooker wrote:By the way, nice cowboy hat coordination.

Haha, that was totally unintentional.

A'nold wrote:Most people on here (see that I said most) are naive when it comes to the real world. For example, dropping out and "getting into advertising" is so horrific a prospect you really cannot imagine how much you will ultimately regret dropping out of Fordham. I speak from experience on this topic. Once you throw yourself out into the cold, hard working world and realize you cannot find anything but temp jobs and the prospect of "working your way up" is a 10 year plan of hell dealing with incompetent middle-management with the only prospect being sticking it out for only a couple more years so you can land that 35k a year dream job with another company where you work 60 hours a week doing the worst crap imaginable, you will dream of graduating from Fordham below median with 210k student loan debt that you can use IBR to help pay back.

I LOLed.

I think a lot of people on here don't realize how shitty other non-law jobs are. I love how people freak out at the horrible prospect of making $60K to start out a career with little to no work experience, as if your life is over. It's definitely not ideal while paying off the kind debt that law school brings, but it's manageable. 60K is a lot of money, and if you work in the corporate world, not only do you usually have to have at least 5 years of experience or a graduate degree of some sort to make that much, you have to put up with a bunch of complete idiots with emotional issues that couldn't cut it in consulting being in charge of you. And when I say "complete idiots," I really mean it. I've never met more incompetent, impractical, disorganized, and somewhat psychotic people in any other work environment than I have in three years of working in corporate offices of some very major corporations. Office Space isn't a comedy, it's a documentary, and a mild one at that. These people couldn't find their way out of a paper bag to save their lives, and yet somehow they get to dress in snazzy business attire and look important and hold on to the same job and continue to turn in mediocre results day after day, year after year. No one fires them because there's no one smarter or more desperate available to fill their position. All the smarter ones ended up going to law school or med school or got a PhD and are doing research or consulting -- and are going into a profession where producing real results actually matters and idiots are quickly weeded out.

Going the corporate route was the biggest mistake of my life, and I can't wait for fall. Good god. Do not drop out of Fordham because of one class.

JCougar wrote:

A'nold wrote:Most people on here (see that I said most) are naive when it comes to the real world. For example, dropping out and "getting into advertising" is so horrific a prospect you really cannot imagine how much you will ultimately regret dropping out of Fordham. I speak from experience on this topic. Once you throw yourself out into the cold, hard working world and realize you cannot find anything but temp jobs and the prospect of "working your way up" is a 10 year plan of hell dealing with incompetent middle-management with the only prospect being sticking it out for only a couple more years so you can land that 35k a year dream job with another company where you work 60 hours a week doing the worst crap imaginable, you will dream of graduating from Fordham below median with 210k student loan debt that you can use IBR to help pay back.

I LOLed.

I think a lot of people on here don't realize how shitty other non-law jobs are. I love how people freak out at the horrible prospect of making $60K to start out a career with little to no work experience, as if your life is over. It's definitely not ideal while paying off the kind debt that law school brings, but it's manageable. 60K is a lot of money, and if you work in the corporate world, not only do you usually have to have at least 5 years of experience or a graduate degree of some sort to make that much, you have to put up with a bunch of complete idiots with emotional issues that couldn't cut it in consulting being in charge of you. And when I say "complete idiots," I really mean it. I've never met more incompetent, impractical, disorganized, and somewhat psychotic people in any other work environment than I have in three years of working in corporate offices of some very major corporations. Office Space isn't a comedy, it's a documentary, and a mild one at that. These people couldn't find their way out of a paper bag to save their lives, and yet somehow they get to dress in snazzy business attire and look important and hold on to the same job and continue to turn in mediocre results day after day, year after year. No one fires them because there's no one smarter or more desperate available to fill their position. All the smarter ones ended up going to law school or med school or got a PhD and are doing research or consulting -- and are going into a profession where producing real results actually matters and idiots are quickly weeded out.

Going the corporate route was the biggest mistake of my life, and I can't wait for fall. Good god. Do not drop out of Fordham because of one class.

Large entities (corporations, government) have a lot of drones since very little of what they do is rocket science.

Space_Cowboy wrote: Large entities (corporations, government) have a lot of drones since very little of what they do is rocket science.

And it's the drones that end up staying there. Being promoted in these organizations really is about being petty and kissing butt, because the people in charge really only care about their own job security, and people that kiss their butt make them look good. And looking good has surprisingly little to do with high performance in an organization where actual performance is poorly measured. In fact, suggesting improvements is frowned upon, since simply acknowledging that something needs to be improved means the people who implemented the existing process/policy (usually your manager) must have not really thought things through the first time.

JCougar wrote:I LOLed.

I think a lot of people on here don't realize how shitty other non-law jobs are. I love how people freak out at the horrible prospect of making $60K to start out a career with little to no work experience, as if your life is over. It's definitely not ideal while paying off the kind debt that law school brings, but it's manageable. 60K is a lot of money, and if you work in the corporate world, not only do you usually have to have at least 5 years of experience or a graduate degree of some sort to make that much, you have to put up with a bunch of complete idiots with emotional issues that couldn't cut it in consulting being in charge of you. And when I say "complete idiots," I really mean it. I've never met more incompetent, impractical, disorganized, and somewhat psychotic people in any other work environment than I have in three years of working in corporate offices of some very major corporations. Office Space isn't a comedy, it's a documentary, and a mild one at that. These people couldn't find their way out of a paper bag to save their lives, and yet somehow they get to dress in snazzy business attire and look important and hold on to the same job and continue to turn in mediocre results day after day, year after year. No one fires them because there's no one smarter or more desperate available to fill their position. All the smarter ones ended up going to law school or med school or got a PhD and are doing research or consulting -- and are going into a profession where producing real results actually matters and idiots are quickly weeded out.

Going the corporate route was the biggest mistake of my life, and I can't wait for fall. Good god. Do not drop out of Fordham because of one class.

...and I LOL'ed at your post.

Maybe you're confusing the study of law and the practice of law. When it gets to practice, it becomes similar to whatever is considered typical corporate activity. Private practice law is a very reputation-driven field and kissing ass is part of the business. Law is reputation-driven precisely because performance isn't that easy to measure, so you need some verification criteria like reputation. If you think results are so easy to measure, then why do you think the industry is being outsourced to India? Probably because a large majority of legal work isn't difficult enough. Of course there are elite intellectuals in the legal industry, but there are also elites in any large corporation -- Lots of upper level management in corporate America are well educated as well. Maybe your corporate experiences are the "shitlaw" analog.

Law isn't rocket science either. Why do you think professors give up all the salary to teach? Because they need a more intellectual environment, which private practice does not offer.

However, a big difference between corporate and legal work is that in the latter, you have a very high financial barrier to entry consisting of law school tuition and a high mental barrier (law school stress).

JCougar wrote:

A'nold wrote:Most people on here (see that I said most) are naive when it comes to the real world. For example, dropping out and "getting into advertising" is so horrific a prospect you really cannot imagine how much you will ultimately regret dropping out of Fordham. I speak from experience on this topic. Once you throw yourself out into the cold, hard working world and realize you cannot find anything but temp jobs and the prospect of "working your way up" is a 10 year plan of hell dealing with incompetent middle-management with the only prospect being sticking it out for only a couple more years so you can land that 35k a year dream job with another company where you work 60 hours a week doing the worst crap imaginable, you will dream of graduating from Fordham below median with 210k student loan debt that you can use IBR to help pay back.

I LOLed.

I think a lot of people on here don't realize how shitty other non-law jobs are. I love how people freak out at the horrible prospect of making $60K to start out a career with little to no work experience, as if your life is over. It's definitely not ideal while paying off the kind debt that law school brings, but it's manageable. 60K is a lot of money, and if you work in the corporate world, not only do you usually have to have at least 5 years of experience or a graduate degree of some sort to make that much, you have to put up with a bunch of complete idiots with emotional issues that couldn't cut it in consulting being in charge of you. And when I say "complete idiots," I really mean it. I've never met more incompetent, impractical, disorganized, and somewhat psychotic people in any other work environment than I have in three years of working in corporate offices of some very major corporations. Office Space isn't a comedy, it's a documentary, and a mild one at that. These people couldn't find their way out of a paper bag to save their lives, and yet somehow they get to dress in snazzy business attire and look important and hold on to the same job and continue to turn in mediocre results day after day, year after year. No one fires them because there's no one smarter or more desperate available to fill their position. All the smarter ones ended up going to law school or med school or got a PhD and are doing research or consulting -- and are going into a profession where producing real results actually matters and idiots are quickly weeded out.

Going the corporate route was the biggest mistake of my life, and I can't wait for fall. Good god. Do not drop out of Fordham because of one class.

Some of these will never understand until they go through it. If they think law school or a 60k job is hell, wait till they try doing what we did. *shudder*

awesomepossum wrote:

1Lpanic wrote:At this point, I am just hoping to know whether I can realistically find any job that will enable me to pay off 210k in loans if I am below 50%. Can I make monthly loan payments on an ADA salary or with a similar job?

I would go talk to your financial aid office and career services office as well.

I think it's a combination of what they think your prospects are, where you plan on living and what if any LRAP there is available to you.

FYI, I was under the impression that it's really hard to get an ADA job in NYC.

according to the internets, fordham LRAP is only for five years. most schools its for ten.

Black-Blue wrote: ...and I LOL'ed at your post.

Maybe you're confusing the study of law and the practice of law. When it gets to practice, it's it becomes similar to whatever is considered typical corporate activity. Private practice law is a very reputation-driven field and kissing ass is part of the business. Law is reputation-driven precisely because performance isn't that easy to measure, so you need some verification criteria like reputation. If you think results are so easy to measure, then why do you think the industry is being outsourced to India? Probably because a large majority of legal work isn't difficult enough. Of course there are elite intellectuals in the legal industry, but there are also elites in any large corporation -- Lots of upper level management in corporate America are well educated as well. Maybe your corporate experiences are the "shitlaw" analog.

Law isn't rocket science either. Why do you think professors give up all the salary to teach? Because they need a more intellectual environment, which private practice does not offer.

However, a big difference between corporate and legal work is that in the latter, you have a very high barrier to entry consisting of law school tuition and stressful law school classes, whereas in the former, you don't (or at least you can just party your way through the MBA).

If you're great at what you do in the corporate environment and you're lucky enough to have managers that care that you're great, you can wait 5 years to be promoted to manager, 5 years to be promoted to director, and another 10 years to VP.

If you're great at what you do in law, you make partner in 8 years. And you make a lot more as a law partner than you do as a director or a VP, even if it's at a smaller firm.

Law isn't rocket science, of course, but it's a far more rewarding environment for those who are willing to go the extra mile to succeed. There's more immediate focus on individual performance. The retail sales job I had during undergrad was the best job I had in my life. I worked on straight commission, no salary/wage. If you couldn't produce, you were gone. I think law is a lot more like that than working for a big organization, whether it be government or a corporate bureaucracy. There's nothing wrong with going into a field that's reputation-driven, as long as that reputation is ultimately based on your abilities rather than your qualifications as a submissive drone.

rw2264 wrote:

awesomepossum wrote:

1Lpanic wrote:At this point, I am just hoping to know whether I can realistically find any job that will enable me to pay off 210k in loans if I am below 50%. Can I make monthly loan payments on an ADA salary or with a similar job?

I would go talk to your financial aid office and career services office as well.

I think it's a combination of what they think your prospects are, where you plan on living and what if any LRAP there is available to you.

FYI, I was under the impression that it's really hard to get an ADA job in NYC.

according to the internets, fordham LRAP is only for five years. most schools its for ten.

This is accurate for Fordham, and our LRAP is not T14 level, but many schools don't cover full IBR payments, which Fordham's does for the first five years. I have heard talk that they will expand coverage, but even as it is now, you will likely only pay back around a quarter of what you borrow (assuming around $5k per year in IBR payments for the second five years before forgiveness).

A'nold wrote: Some of these will never understand until they go through it. If they think law school or a 60k job is hell, wait till they try doing what we did. *shudder*

Ugh. Still doing it. This week was hilarious. We've been working on a project for 8 months now, and we just got feedback from way upper management. They just suggested we change something that I already suggested we change 6 months ago but that my manager rejected. Of course, it's been six months so she completely forgot the suggestion I made, and now she's like "that's a great idea, we have to fix this problem, upper management is so smart" and then she announces that she has developed a solution and she comes up with pretty much the exact solution I had suggested 6 months ago. Then she went on and on in our meeting about how smart she was about coming up with such a great solution, and later started talking about how her kid says the cutest things. I'm lucky I didn't stab the back of my brain with my pen via the eye socket.

2807 wrote:Whoa.. Hold on.

I know nothing about law school and job prospects, but I know a lot about life.

Dont quit. Ever. At least, not for the reasons you are citing.

I am older than you and have lost a career, had tons of debt, no debt, tons of money, no money.... married, divorced... injured, healthy..... it goes on and on....

You will experience all of these things in life. Dont add to that list "I quit law school because I got B's" Good Grief...

You have already gone so far in college, the LSAT, the applications, the commitiment, and now the actual first semester of classes... You are so close! STAY. FIGHT BACK.

You can't fix normal.

It is normal to doubt, panic, be depressed and all of that.... You forget--> these feelings are now offsetting all of those manic feelings you had before about making it big in law. All of them serve a purpose, and in the end you find BALANCE.

Screw the debt issue. Get the education AT ALL COSTS. You will always have debt....deal with it.

Make sure you are not using debt as an excuse for your fear. Is debt, without the potential of a law degree, better? NO.

Just relax. Study better, or study the same and get B's, and move on in life. Somehow I just know you will find a job, a spouse, a home, and all of this will seem very silly. You just lack the perspective right now.

FIGHT BACK and you will learn a lot more than goofy legal theory as you graduate law school and thrive thrive thrive.

It is the fight that will define you. Not the grade.

Trust me.

I come to you from the future.

I vote this as the most obnoxious and idiotic post on TLS.

n/m

I do not think law profs give up any salary to teach; that's just senseless idolization of the academia. Many law deans have commented that the skills needed for law academia are entirely unlike those needed for private practice, and that top practitioners would never be able to get into academia and visa versa. An academic would definitely have been able to start out in biglaw making 160k a year, but after a few years they would probably not make partner and leave the firm. It's much more common for these lawyers to make around 100k a year. Many law faculty had worked in public interest before, where they were paid substantially less. On the other hand, tenured faculty at top schools will make around 200k a year. For academic types, working at the law school is actually probably a substantial salary bump.

My personal experience with law professors is not inconsistent with this observation. Of my professors this year, they were all top researchers but none of them would stand a chance at becoming partners in big law firms, by their own admission.

XxSpyKEx wrote:

2807 wrote:Whoa.. Hold on.

I know nothing about law school and job prospects, but I know a lot about life.

Dont quit. Ever. At least, not for the reasons you are citing.

I am older than you and have lost a career, had tons of debt, no debt, tons of money, no money.... married, divorced... injured, healthy..... it goes on and on....

You will experience all of these things in life. Dont add to that list "I quit law school because I got B's" Good Grief...

You have already gone so far in college, the LSAT, the applications, the commitiment, and now the actual first semester of classes... You are so close! STAY. FIGHT BACK.

You can't fix normal.

It is normal to doubt, panic, be depressed and all of that.... You forget--> these feelings are now offsetting all of those manic feelings you had before about making it big in law. All of them serve a purpose, and in the end you find BALANCE.

Screw the debt issue. Get the education AT ALL COSTS. You will always have debt....deal with it.

Make sure you are not using debt as an excuse for your fear. Is debt, without the potential of a law degree, better? NO.

Just relax. Study better, or study the same and get B's, and move on in life. Somehow I just know you will find a job, a spouse, a home, and all of this will seem very silly. You just lack the perspective right now.

FIGHT BACK and you will learn a lot more than goofy legal theory as you graduate law school and thrive thrive thrive.

It is the fight that will define you. Not the grade.

Trust me.

I come to you from the future.

I vote this as the most obnoxious and idiotic post on TLS.

Agreed. This is what leads people to go all in at TTT schools and wonder what to do when they graduate $200k in debt without any real job options.