What school has the laziest professors?

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Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:32 pm

caoyun wrote:My point was that winter break is their vacation too. They have families they want to spend their vacations with. I don't expect a professor to work on their vacation. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be required to work on my vacation. Kinda ruins the whole vacation-y feel of a vacation.


Yeah, but they aren't in school. This is their career. Almost no other professional gets vacations even resembling the type professors get, and they do just fine with their families.

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Kohinoor
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:39 pm

ak362 wrote:
Cole S. Law wrote:Would it be cruel to ask them to set aside a 2-3 days after their exam to grade the things?

My rationale is, the longer they take to grade, the more meticulous it is - and the fairer the grading.

I laffed.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:42 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
ak362 wrote:
Cole S. Law wrote:Would it be cruel to ask them to set aside a 2-3 days after their exam to grade the things?

My rationale is, the longer they take to grade, the more meticulous it is - and the fairer the grading.

I laffed.


My Con Law prof from last year has a blog.

She was joking on her blog about the fact that she still hadn't graded the 1L exams--AFTER the submission deadline. The exams had a 2,000 word limit total, by the way, so there was really no excuse.

It has nothing to do with meticulous grading. It just means they've been too lazy to drag the pile of papers to a stairwell.

(You are familiar with the stairwell method of grading law school exams, I presume? It is the most common method, though the exact procedure followed does vary from professor to professor.)

ak362
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby ak362 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:45 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:(You are familiar with the stairwell method of grading law school exams, I presume? It is the most common method, though the exact procedure followed does vary from professor to professor.)


I was on the edge of a step, once. I was closer to the B step than the A step, so I got stuck with a crummy B+.

ak362
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby ak362 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:48 pm

ntzsch wrote:
edit: i hope that it is not as stupid as what i am inferring from the post above.


It very well may be.

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:01 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:My point was that winter break is their vacation too. They have families they want to spend their vacations with. I don't expect a professor to work on their vacation. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be required to work on my vacation. Kinda ruins the whole vacation-y feel of a vacation.


Yeah, but they aren't in school. This is their career. Almost no other professional gets vacations even resembling the type professors get, and they do just fine with their families.



That's irrelevant. A vacation is a vacation. Get back to me when you're willing to spend your entire vacation working instead of relaxing and having fun.

What you're ignoring is that the vacations the Professors get are part of the overall employment package. If they didn't get all that time off, they'd demand higher pay, which would cause an increase in tuition. That's how the real world works. You trade one employment benefit for another. Perhaps you sacrifice good health care for better pay or vice versa. Perhaps you sacrifice better pay for lots of vacation time. That's the way it works.

But either way, how can you attack someone for not wanting to work on their vacation? You need to watch Ferris Bueller and zen out for awhile.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby BradyToMoss » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:19 pm

caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:My point was that winter break is their vacation too. They have families they want to spend their vacations with. I don't expect a professor to work on their vacation. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be required to work on my vacation. Kinda ruins the whole vacation-y feel of a vacation.


Yeah, but they aren't in school. This is their career. Almost no other professional gets vacations even resembling the type professors get, and they do just fine with their families.



That's irrelevant. A vacation is a vacation. Get back to me when you're willing to spend your entire vacation working instead of relaxing and having fun.

What you're ignoring is that the vacations the Professors get are part of the overall employment package. If they didn't get all that time off, they'd demand higher pay, which would cause an increase in tuition. That's how the real world works. You trade one employment benefit for another. Perhaps you sacrifice good health care for better pay or vice versa. Perhaps you sacrifice better pay for lots of vacation time. That's the way it works.

But either way, how can you attack someone for not wanting to work on their vacation? You need to watch Ferris Bueller and zen out for awhile.


And here I was thinking that summers off and semester-long sabbaticals = vacation.

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:29 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:
caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:My point was that winter break is their vacation too. They have families they want to spend their vacations with. I don't expect a professor to work on their vacation. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be required to work on my vacation. Kinda ruins the whole vacation-y feel of a vacation.


Yeah, but they aren't in school. This is their career. Almost no other professional gets vacations even resembling the type professors get, and they do just fine with their families.



That's irrelevant. A vacation is a vacation. Get back to me when you're willing to spend your entire vacation working instead of relaxing and having fun.

What you're ignoring is that the vacations the Professors get are part of the overall employment package. If they didn't get all that time off, they'd demand higher pay, which would cause an increase in tuition. That's how the real world works. You trade one employment benefit for another. Perhaps you sacrifice good health care for better pay or vice versa. Perhaps you sacrifice better pay for lots of vacation time. That's the way it works.

But either way, how can you attack someone for not wanting to work on their vacation? You need to watch Ferris Bueller and zen out for awhile.


And here I was thinking that summers off and semester-long sabbaticals = vacation.


Indeed they do. That does not make winter break any less of a vacation.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:34 pm

caoyun wrote:That's irrelevant. A vacation is a vacation. Get back to me when you're willing to spend your entire vacation working instead of relaxing and having fun.

What you're ignoring is that the vacations the Professors get are part of the overall employment package. If they didn't get all that time off, they'd demand higher pay, which would cause an increase in tuition. That's how the real world works. You trade one employment benefit for another. Perhaps you sacrifice good health care for better pay or vice versa. Perhaps you sacrifice better pay for lots of vacation time. That's the way it works.

But either way, how can you attack someone for not wanting to work on their vacation? You need to watch Ferris Bueller and zen out for awhile.


They get paid plenty and have pretty damned decent health care as a general rule.

I'm not attacking anyone (that would be you actually, with your little comment about Ferris). I'm arguing that a vacation for the students doesn't necessarily mean a vacation for professors. How could it? Professors are expected and often required to spend their vacations writing, publishing and lecturing. I don't think its a huge stretch or "attack," to suggest that grading might also be part of the job.

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:40 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:That's irrelevant. A vacation is a vacation. Get back to me when you're willing to spend your entire vacation working instead of relaxing and having fun.

What you're ignoring is that the vacations the Professors get are part of the overall employment package. If they didn't get all that time off, they'd demand higher pay, which would cause an increase in tuition. That's how the real world works. You trade one employment benefit for another. Perhaps you sacrifice good health care for better pay or vice versa. Perhaps you sacrifice better pay for lots of vacation time. That's the way it works.

But either way, how can you attack someone for not wanting to work on their vacation? You need to watch Ferris Bueller and zen out for awhile.


They get paid plenty and have pretty damned decent health care as a general rule.

I'm not attacking anyone (that would be you actually, with your little comment about Ferris). I'm arguing that a vacation for the students doesn't necessarily mean a vacation for professors. How could it? Professors are expected and often required to spend their vacations writing, publishing and lecturing. I don't think its a huge stretch or "attack," to suggest that grading might also be part of the job.


Professors are expected to write, publish, whatever, period. They aren't expected to specifically do so over winter break. And if they were, one would think that, in addition to having time off, they have other work to do, aside from grading, which would excuse a delay anyway. Winter break may be best opportunity they have to get some substantial writing done, but that doesn't mean that they are contractually obligated to write over winter break.

But anyway, I never said Professors didn't get good health care. My point was just that pretty much every aspect of a job is negotiated over, when you're a professional. If Professors didn't get winter break off, they'd expect higher pay, as they'd be working more. It's a give and take no matter which way you slice it. I don't like having to wait more than a month for my grades. It really fucks one over in the job hunt and with judicial internships, for example, but such is life. As far as I'm concerned, winter break is as much their vacation as it is mine. I DO have to work over winter break. It blows. Big time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:47 pm

caoyun wrote:It really fucks one over in the job hunt and with judicial internships, for example, but such is life. As far as I'm concerned, winter break is as much their vacation as it is mine. I DO have to work over winter break. It blows. Big time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else.


This is one of the main issues I have with the time professors are given with grading--it negatively affects the students. Odd since so much is regulated by the ABA, students who get their grades earlier are at an obvious advantage that those that get them later.

Anyways, I work for a biglaw firm, and every professional I've ever known both there and anywhere else knows that sometimes you have to turn your head towards your job while on vacation. As you said, "such is life." Professors are obviously lesson planning over their breaks (hell, my roommate who teaches high school lesson plans through her school year and summer breaks), so I'm not really sure how anyone can argue that their vacations are strictly vacations.

I wasn't really sure what argument you were making about professors being required to write during breaks, so I decided to just ignore it.

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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:58 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:It really fucks one over in the job hunt and with judicial internships, for example, but such is life. As far as I'm concerned, winter break is as much their vacation as it is mine. I DO have to work over winter break. It blows. Big time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else.


This is one of the main issues I have with the time professors are given with grading--it negatively affects the students. Odd since so much is regulated by the ABA, students who get their grades earlier are at an obvious advantage that those that get them later.

Anyways, I work for a biglaw firm, and every professional I've ever known both there and anywhere else knows that sometimes you have to turn your head towards your job while on vacation. As you said, "such is life." Professors are obviously lesson planning over their breaks (hell, my roommate who teaches high school lesson plans through her school year and summer breaks), so I'm not really sure how anyone can argue that their vacations are strictly vacations.

I wasn't really sure what argument you were making about professors being required to write during breaks, so I decided to just ignore it.


As an aside, could you point this out to Biden in the politics thread so he'll stfu? :D

As for what's going on here: the negative impact that getting grades late has on students' job searching is inexcusable. It can be really rough for transfers, too, though I almost feel like some of that is intentional.

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:01 am

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:It really fucks one over in the job hunt and with judicial internships, for example, but such is life. As far as I'm concerned, winter break is as much their vacation as it is mine. I DO have to work over winter break. It blows. Big time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else.



I wasn't really sure what argument you were making about professors being required to write during breaks, so I decided to just ignore it.


That they aren't. And if they are, yet are not obligated to grade over winter break, that should tell you something about their employment agreements.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:04 am

caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:It really fucks one over in the job hunt and with judicial internships, for example, but such is life. As far as I'm concerned, winter break is as much their vacation as it is mine. I DO have to work over winter break. It blows. Big time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else.



I wasn't really sure what argument you were making about professors being required to write during breaks, so I decided to just ignore it.


That they aren't. And if they are, yet are not obligated to grade over winter break, that should tell you something about their employment agreements.


I still don't really understand your point. Obviously I'm not arguing that the professors are required to do anything thats not in a contract. I'm arguing that the contract may be flawed.

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:06 am

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:It really fucks one over in the job hunt and with judicial internships, for example, but such is life. As far as I'm concerned, winter break is as much their vacation as it is mine. I DO have to work over winter break. It blows. Big time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else.



I wasn't really sure what argument you were making about professors being required to write during breaks, so I decided to just ignore it.


That they aren't. And if they are, yet are not obligated to grade over winter break, that should tell you something about their employment agreements.


I still don't really understand your point. Obviously I'm not arguing that the professors are required to do anything thats not in a contract. I'm arguing that the contract may be flawed.


And my point is that if you want it written into the contract that Professors must grade over winter break, that you have to be prepared to pay them more. Which will cause an increase in tuition. I'm not sure getting your grades a couple weeks early is really worth such an increase.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:07 am

caoyun wrote:And my point is that if you want it written into the contract that Professors must grade over winter break, that you have to be prepared to pay them more. Which will cause an increase in tuition. I'm not sure getting your grades a couple weeks early is really worth such an increase.


Not if the time grades come out becomes regulated by the ABA, like so many other employment deadlines.

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:10 am

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:And my point is that if you want it written into the contract that Professors must grade over winter break, that you have to be prepared to pay them more. Which will cause an increase in tuition. I'm not sure getting your grades a couple weeks early is really worth such an increase.


Not if the time grades come out becomes regulated by the ABA, like so many other employment deadlines.


And you think professors still wouldn't require more money to do work over vacation?

Take a manufacturer. They have to meet certain government standards and regulations, which naturally increase cost. Do they just swallow that cost because its required by some governing body? No, they pass the cost on to consumers. Likewise, if the ABA mandates that grades must be in by a certain time, professors will STILL demand more pay. Most of them, after all, could probably be making much more money elsewhere. They'll get what they want. But law schools won't swallow that cost. Instead they'll pass it on to the students. That's how employment works. The company pays for everything the employee has to do, one way or another. That is, either through salary, benefits, vacation, whatever. If you eliminate or lessen one perk (winter break), they'll have to compensate the professor somehow.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:14 am

caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:And my point is that if you want it written into the contract that Professors must grade over winter break, that you have to be prepared to pay them more. Which will cause an increase in tuition. I'm not sure getting your grades a couple weeks early is really worth such an increase.


Not if the time grades come out becomes regulated by the ABA, like so many other employment deadlines.


And you think professors still wouldn't require more money to do work over vacation?

Take a manufacturer. They have to meet certain government standards and regulations, which naturally increase cost. Do they just swallow that cost because its required by some governing body? No, they pass the cost on to consumers. Likewise, if the ABA mandates that grades must be in by a certain time, professors will STILL demand more pay. Most of them, after all, could probably be making much more money elsewhere. They'll get what they want. But law schools won't swallow that cost. Instead they'll pass it on to the students. That's how employment works. The company pays for everything the employee has to do, one way or another. That is, either through salary, benefits, vacation, whatever. If you eliminate or lessen one perk (winter break), they'll have to compensate the professor somehow.


I actually disagree with all of this...but professors do work over break. Its a fact. I just think that work should be geared towards grading.

You're also forgetting that most law professors really, really want to be law professors and most likely wouldn't raise to much of a fuss.

But anyways, again...professors do work over breaks.

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macattaq
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby macattaq » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:14 am

BradyToMoss wrote:
caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:My point was that winter break is their vacation too. They have families they want to spend their vacations with. I don't expect a professor to work on their vacation. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be required to work on my vacation. Kinda ruins the whole vacation-y feel of a vacation.


Yeah, but they aren't in school. This is their career. Almost no other professional gets vacations even resembling the type professors get, and they do just fine with their families.



That's irrelevant. A vacation is a vacation. Get back to me when you're willing to spend your entire vacation working instead of relaxing and having fun.

What you're ignoring is that the vacations the Professors get are part of the overall employment package. If they didn't get all that time off, they'd demand higher pay, which would cause an increase in tuition. That's how the real world works. You trade one employment benefit for another. Perhaps you sacrifice good health care for better pay or vice versa. Perhaps you sacrifice better pay for lots of vacation time. That's the way it works.

But either way, how can you attack someone for not wanting to work on their vacation? You need to watch Ferris Bueller and zen out for awhile.


And here I was thinking that summers off and semester-long sabbaticals = vacation.


No, summers "off" and semester-long sabbaticals ≠ vacation. Sabbaticals are usually taken in the event of severe illness/family issues OR in order to work on a book or intensive research project. They aren't taken just to screw around. Similarly, summers off aren't like our summers. Yes, they get to play hooky, but they are doing things like evaluating casebooks, perhaps teaching a summer class, and again, working on research.

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Joe Biden
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Joe Biden » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:18 am

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:And my point is that if you want it written into the contract that Professors must grade over winter break, that you have to be prepared to pay them more. Which will cause an increase in tuition. I'm not sure getting your grades a couple weeks early is really worth such an increase.


Not if the time grades come out becomes regulated by the ABA, like so many other employment deadlines.


And you think professors still wouldn't require more money to do work over vacation?

Take a manufacturer. They have to meet certain government standards and regulations, which naturally increase cost. Do they just swallow that cost because its required by some governing body? No, they pass the cost on to consumers. Likewise, if the ABA mandates that grades must be in by a certain time, professors will STILL demand more pay. Most of them, after all, could probably be making much more money elsewhere. They'll get what they want. But law schools won't swallow that cost. Instead they'll pass it on to the students. That's how employment works. The company pays for everything the employee has to do, one way or another. That is, either through salary, benefits, vacation, whatever. If you eliminate or lessen one perk (winter break), they'll have to compensate the professor somehow.


I actually disagree with all of this...but professors do work over break. Its a fact. I just think that work should be geared towards grading.

You're also forgetting that most law professors really, really want to be law professors and most likely wouldn't raise to much of a fuss.

But anyways, again...professors do work over breaks.


The plural adjective is more annoying than nails streaking down a chalkboard. A lot of law professors work as law professors because it is relatively laid back compared to their previous positions in BigLaw, government, etc. If you expect law professors to put in BigLaw hours you better be prepared to have tuition go up, because they will require BigLaw paychecks.

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:22 am

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote:And my point is that if you want it written into the contract that Professors must grade over winter break, that you have to be prepared to pay them more. Which will cause an increase in tuition. I'm not sure getting your grades a couple weeks early is really worth such an increase.


Not if the time grades come out becomes regulated by the ABA, like so many other employment deadlines.


And you think professors still wouldn't require more money to do work over vacation?

Take a manufacturer. They have to meet certain government standards and regulations, which naturally increase cost. Do they just swallow that cost because its required by some governing body? No, they pass the cost on to consumers. Likewise, if the ABA mandates that grades must be in by a certain time, professors will STILL demand more pay. Most of them, after all, could probably be making much more money elsewhere. They'll get what they want. But law schools won't swallow that cost. Instead they'll pass it on to the students. That's how employment works. The company pays for everything the employee has to do, one way or another. That is, either through salary, benefits, vacation, whatever. If you eliminate or lessen one perk (winter break), they'll have to compensate the professor somehow.


I actually disagree with all of this...but professors do work over break. Its a fact. I just think that work should be geared towards grading.

You're also forgetting that most law professors really, really want to be law professors and most likely wouldn't raise to much of a fuss.

But anyways, again...professors do work over breaks.



I'm not forgetting that most professors want to be professors. But part of that is the lack of obligation, the freedom to do what they want, to not have to meet strict deadlines, etc. The imposition of strict deadlines and an increase in contractual obligations makes the job less desirable.

But anyway. This is America. When does ANYONE do ANYTHING for free? Of course they'll want to be paid more to sacrifice their vacations to grade papers. That is capitalism, my friend. That's how it works.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:22 am

Joe Biden wrote:The plural adjective is more annoying than nails streaking down a chalkboard.


Someone pointing out ill advised grammar and wording choices on an internet forum is equally annoying.

We're making a big leap from a few hours a day over a month vacation to biglaw hours.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:23 am

caoyun wrote: That is capitalism, my friend. That's how it works.


OH MY GOSH, THATS HOW IT WORKS?!?!

caoyun
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby caoyun » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:28 am

Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote: That is capitalism, my friend. That's how it works.


OH MY GOSH, THATS HOW IT WORKS?!?!


Indeed. TINSTAAFL.

Pearalegal
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Re: What school has the laziest professors?

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:32 am

caoyun wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
caoyun wrote: That is capitalism, my friend. That's how it works.


OH MY GOSH, THATS HOW IT WORKS?!?!


Indeed. TINSTAAFL.


Lunch is for wimps.




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