Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

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Snooker
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Snooker » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:11 pm

I guess I will have to keep waiting. Time to buy some ulcer medication in advance.

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OperaAttorney
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby OperaAttorney » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:16 pm

Snooker wrote:I guess I will have to keep waiting. Time to buy some ulcer medication in advance.


Quit being melodramatic, Snooker. :)

In retrospect, I wish I'd received all of my grades at once. Having only one grade tempts you to waste time obsessing about how your GPA will change-- dear GPA, how low can you go?--when the other grades roll in. But I don't have a calculator, fortunately LOL.

Alexandria
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Alexandria » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:46 pm

JazzOne wrote:
Alexandria wrote:It seems to me that the average TLSer does much better than just average in law school. We're more "into" law school than a lot of our classmates.

I would have thought so too, but I've read dozens of threads warning people not to expect anything above median. (ie, if you expect to be in the top 5%, there is a 95% chance you will be disappointed.) Plus, this thread is full of TLSers predicting below median grades. I just find it odd.


I think that's good advice, because you really don't know how it will shake out until it does, so you shouldn't make life decisions based upon thinking you will beat the odds because you post on TLS.

But, for example, there was a pretty big group of us (maybe 15) who posted on LSD during the 2006-07 application cycle (before TLS was popular) and who all met up at Michigan ASW and had a great time and decided to go to there. We're 3Ls now, and I believe that the vast majority of that group (like almost all) is above median, and a huge number of us are in the top quarter or top 10%. Some people I'm sure about bc we're close friends and others I'm guessing, based on other indicators (extracurriculars or class selection that tend to be mainly top students). I just think that people who are "into" law school enough to join an online community throughout the application process, to get advice about how to do well, etc. are not only ahead of the game when 1L begins (know what to expect, have some strategies, etc.) but also tend to be more psychologically invested in the experience.

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kurama20
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby kurama20 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:03 pm

Alexandria wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Alexandria wrote:It seems to me that the average TLSer does much better than just average in law school. We're more "into" law school than a lot of our classmates.

I would have thought so too, but I've read dozens of threads warning people not to expect anything above median. (ie, if you expect to be in the top 5%, there is a 95% chance you will be disappointed.) Plus, this thread is full of TLSers predicting below median grades. I just find it odd.


I think that's good advice, because you really don't know how it will shake out until it does, so you shouldn't make life decisions based upon thinking you will beat the odds because you post on TLS.

But, for example, there was a pretty big group of us (maybe 15) who posted on LSD during the 2006-07 application cycle (before TLS was popular) and who all met up at Michigan ASW and had a great time and decided to go to there. We're 3Ls now, and I believe that the vast majority of that group (like almost all) is above median, and a huge number of us are in the top quarter or top 10%. Some people I'm sure about bc we're close friends and others I'm guessing, based on other indicators (extracurriculars or class selection that tend to be mainly top students). I just think that people who are "into" law school enough to join an online community throughout the application process, to get advice about how to do well, etc. are not only ahead of the game when 1L begins (know what to expect, have some strategies, etc.) but also tend to be more psychologically invested in the experience.



GOD I hope you're right! :D

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thesealocust
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:46 pm

kurama20 wrote:
Alexandria wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Alexandria wrote:It seems to me that the average TLSer does much better than just average in law school. We're more "into" law school than a lot of our classmates.

I would have thought so too, but I've read dozens of threads warning people not to expect anything above median. (ie, if you expect to be in the top 5%, there is a 95% chance you will be disappointed.) Plus, this thread is full of TLSers predicting below median grades. I just find it odd.


I think that's good advice, because you really don't know how it will shake out until it does, so you shouldn't make life decisions based upon thinking you will beat the odds because you post on TLS.

But, for example, there was a pretty big group of us (maybe 15) who posted on LSD during the 2006-07 application cycle (before TLS was popular) and who all met up at Michigan ASW and had a great time and decided to go to there. We're 3Ls now, and I believe that the vast majority of that group (like almost all) is above median, and a huge number of us are in the top quarter or top 10%. Some people I'm sure about bc we're close friends and others I'm guessing, based on other indicators (extracurriculars or class selection that tend to be mainly top students). I just think that people who are "into" law school enough to join an online community throughout the application process, to get advice about how to do well, etc. are not only ahead of the game when 1L begins (know what to expect, have some strategies, etc.) but also tend to be more psychologically invested in the experience.



GOD I hope you're right! :D


+1,lol. Come on neurotic posting / lurking on TLS, prove yourself worthwhile!

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Marmot
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Marmot » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:18 pm

If I end up with a C in anything, I'll very seriously consider dropping out.

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dresden doll
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:48 pm

Alexandria wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Alexandria wrote:It seems to me that the average TLSer does much better than just average in law school. We're more "into" law school than a lot of our classmates.

I would have thought so too, but I've read dozens of threads warning people not to expect anything above median. (ie, if you expect to be in the top 5%, there is a 95% chance you will be disappointed.) Plus, this thread is full of TLSers predicting below median grades. I just find it odd.


I think that's good advice, because you really don't know how it will shake out until it does, so you shouldn't make life decisions based upon thinking you will beat the odds because you post on TLS.

But, for example, there was a pretty big group of us (maybe 15) who posted on LSD during the 2006-07 application cycle (before TLS was popular) and who all met up at Michigan ASW and had a great time and decided to go to there. We're 3Ls now, and I believe that the vast majority of that group (like almost all) is above median, and a huge number of us are in the top quarter or top 10%. Some people I'm sure about bc we're close friends and others I'm guessing, based on other indicators (extracurriculars or class selection that tend to be mainly top students). I just think that people who are "into" law school enough to join an online community throughout the application process, to get advice about how to do well, etc. are not only ahead of the game when 1L begins (know what to expect, have some strategies, etc.) but also tend to be more psychologically invested in the experience.


Please God, let this be true.

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superserial
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby superserial » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:38 pm

Marmot wrote:If I end up with a C in anything, I'll very seriously consider dropping out.


I think C will make me opt for killself, since (I've been told) professors have to petition Columbia to give us one.

Connelly
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Connelly » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:07 pm

I would not have gone to law school if I was not okay with just making it through. While I have other goals now, when I was applying, I was not so presumptuous to think that I would be anywhere but bottom of the class. If you are not okay with being below median (where half of the class will be), then you really need to consider how much money you're blowing on a 50/50 chance. If you go to a school ranked significantly lower than schools you could have gotten into, then, yes, the risk is much better, as you're likely doing it on a scholarship against students with lower numbers. However, if you go to the best law school that lets you in, it is likely you aren't at the top of their list of profiles. At most schools, the talent is fairly well clustered, and you're dealing with a group of kids who have done well in school before and are motivated to compete for grades. Assumptions of domination are usually misplaced.

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GTman11
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby GTman11 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:35 pm

Connelly wrote:... If you are not okay with being below median (where half of the class will be), then you really need to consider how much money you're blowing on a 50/50 chance...


There is definitely not a 50/50 chance of being above or below the median. This would assume that all other factors are equal and a professor simply flips a coin for each student. If you study more and study smarter than your colleagues you WILL do better. People on this website act like they have no control over their grades. Put in the work and you will succeed, period. This is true for anything in life. I hope you people are learning or learned from undergrad that everyone is capable of being at the top. The only difference between you and the genius in your section is you have to study more to be on his level...the only question is "Are you willing to put in the effort?"

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biggamejames
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby biggamejames » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:01 pm

GTman11 wrote:The only difference between you and the genius in your section is you have to study more to be on his level...the only question is "Are you willing to put in the effort?"

And the answer is: hell fucking no. I'll continue to slack off and hang out at the median, thank you very much.

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chadwick218
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby chadwick218 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:03 pm

GTman11 wrote:
Connelly wrote:... If you are not okay with being below median (where half of the class will be), then you really need to consider how much money you're blowing on a 50/50 chance...


There is definitely not a 50/50 chance of being above or below the median. This would assume that all other factors are equal and a professor simply flips a coin for each student. If you study more and study smarter than your colleagues you WILL do better. People on this website act like they have no control over their grades. Put in the work and you will succeed, period. This is true for anything in life. I hope you people are learning or learned from undergrad that everyone is capable of being at the top. The only difference between you and the genius in your section is you have to study more to be on his level...the only question is "Are you willing to put in the effort?"


Although, you are very likely correct with respect to there not being a 50/50 chance as to whether one finishes above / below the median, I don't think that it is quite as simple as you imply.

At almost any top school, people are willing to put in the effort. Indeed, long hours and hard work are a requisite. However, there does come a point of diminishing returns. Examanship and luck are nearly as important!
Last edited by chadwick218 on Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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RVP11
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:26 pm

The scariest thing about law school grades is NOT that everyone works hard or that everyone is smart. The scariest thing about law school grades is that performance on exams is very loosely connected to what you've been doing all semester. A lot simply comes down to ability on law school exams (not raw intelligence, not how much law you know, etc.). And I don't think you can know that until you get a semester's grades.

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rayiner
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby rayiner » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:46 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:The scariest thing about law school grades is NOT that everyone works hard or that everyone is smart. The scariest thing about law school grades is that performance on exams is very loosely connected to what you've been doing all semester. A lot simply comes down to ability on law school exams (not raw intelligence, not how much law you know, etc.). And I don't think you can know that until you get a semester's grades.


+1.

I had three graded midterms. Two on one end of the curve, one on the other end. It wasn't random, looking over all of them afterward. I studied the same for all three, but in one class I hadn't been synthesizing the material in the way that was effective on the exam. That's all it took in the face of the tight curve...

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chadwick218
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby chadwick218 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:53 pm

rayiner wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:The scariest thing about law school grades is NOT that everyone works hard or that everyone is smart. The scariest thing about law school grades is that performance on exams is very loosely connected to what you've been doing all semester. A lot simply comes down to ability on law school exams (not raw intelligence, not how much law you know, etc.). And I don't think you can know that until you get a semester's grades.


+1.

I had three graded midterms. Two on one end of the curve, one on the other end. It wasn't random, looking over all of them afterward. I studied the same for all three, but in one class I hadn't been synthesizing the material in the way that was effective on the exam. That's all it took in the face of the tight curve...



I had the same experience as Rayiner on two graded midterms worth ~ 20% of the final grade. I was in the top 5% on one and the bottom 20% on the other ... if anything, I studied more for the class where I found myself at the bottom. Looking back, I don't feel as though any additional time spent studying would have been all the beneficial.

Connelly
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Connelly » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:05 pm

GTman11 wrote:There is definitely not a 50/50 chance of being above or below the median.


Agreed, but it's not insanely far off. 60/40, 70/30, who knows? The issue is that median is median for a reason - half of everybody finishes under it. In fact, by the time graduation rolls around, more than half of everybody finishes under it. Who drops out at the end of 1L? It will disproportionately be those at the bottom of the class...so everyone moves down. Attrition is different at all schools. 50/50 is just to get people thinking about the numbers involved. Half of everyone that graduates from a school end up below median - what makes you the special snowflake to do better? Yes, there are several people that mail it in and several that shouldn't be there, but the percentages will differ at many schools, and MOST students at a school will be on a fairly equal playing field, fighting for the 10th-90th percentiles. Maybe they're fighting for the 25th through 95th, I don't know, as it would be very difficult to track down the real numbers here.

If you study more and study smarter than your colleagues you WILL do better.


Exactly, and most people bet on the fact that they can do both of these things. Most people think they're above average in intelligence, but that simply cannot be true. Most people bet that they will do well in law school, but most people end up with median-ish grades from their school.

People on this website act like they have no control over their grades. Put in the work and you will succeed, period. This is true for anything in life. I hope you people are learning or learned from undergrad that everyone is capable of being at the top. The only difference between you and the genius in your section is you have to study more to be on his level...the only question is "Are you willing to put in the effort?"


Can this be true for everyone?

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wardboro
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby wardboro » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:23 pm

Example: Two very sharp kids from my 1L class: they regularly spoke up in class--and only with good comments. They studied hard their first semester and could explain the subjects to classmates very effectively. They understood the subject matter as well or better than anyone else in the class. They had pretty terrible (well below median) first semester grades. They managed to figure out the system and had near-perfect GPAs their second semester.

Take away from this whatever lesson you want.

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thesealocust
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:13 pm

wardboro wrote:Example: Two very sharp kids from my 1L class: they regularly spoke up in class--and only with good comments. They studied hard their first semester and could explain the subjects to classmates very effectively. They understood the subject matter as well or better than anyone else in the class. They had pretty terrible (well below median) first semester grades. They managed to figure out the system and had near-perfect GPAs their second semester.

Take away from this whatever lesson you want.


*nod* The problem with law school is that it's bait-and-switch. A semester of class, cases, and comments that takes a huge amount of work to master, but perfect mastery of it is worth 0 points. I think Gannon referred to the necessary skill as 'sophisticated application of basic doctrine', which they don't teach (explicitly). Even knowing that I needed to figure that skill out in a hurry, and having worked to do so, I have no idea whether or not I was successful.

My contracts professor put it this way: It's like spending an entire semester studying famous swimmers, swimming technique, and discussing the ins and outs of swimming - then being thrown into the deep end of a pool. It's not that what you did during the semester isn't necessary, it's that it doesn't even border on sufficient. And the professors, for all their talents and good intentions, don't spend any time in class teaching you how to swim.

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Cardboardbox
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Cardboardbox » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:20 pm

thesealocust wrote:
wardboro wrote:Example: Two very sharp kids from my 1L class: they regularly spoke up in class--and only with good comments. They studied hard their first semester and could explain the subjects to classmates very effectively. They understood the subject matter as well or better than anyone else in the class. They had pretty terrible (well below median) first semester grades. They managed to figure out the system and had near-perfect GPAs their second semester.

Take away from this whatever lesson you want.


*nod* The problem with law school is that it's bait-and-switch. A semester of class, cases, and comments that takes a huge amount of work to master, but perfect mastery of it is worth 0 points. I think Gannon referred to the necessary skill as 'sophisticated application of basic doctrine', which they don't teach (explicitly). Even knowing that I needed to figure that skill out in a hurry, and having worked to do so, I have no idea whether or not I was successful.

My contracts professor put it this way: It's like spending an entire semester studying famous swimmers, swimming technique, and discussing the ins and outs of swimming - then being thrown into the deep end of a pool. It's not that what you did during the semester isn't necessary, it's that it doesn't even border on sufficient. And the professors, for all their talents and good intentions, don't spend any time in class teaching you how to swim.


This is...kind of terrifying lol

I haven't even gotten any desicions back and still have my last semester of UG ahead of me and now I'm starting to think "shit, how do I start prepping for this thing?"

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superserial
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby superserial » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:21 pm

Cardboardbox wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
wardboro wrote:Example: Two very sharp kids from my 1L class: they regularly spoke up in class--and only with good comments. They studied hard their first semester and could explain the subjects to classmates very effectively. They understood the subject matter as well or better than anyone else in the class. They had pretty terrible (well below median) first semester grades. They managed to figure out the system and had near-perfect GPAs their second semester.

Take away from this whatever lesson you want.


*nod* The problem with law school is that it's bait-and-switch. A semester of class, cases, and comments that takes a huge amount of work to master, but perfect mastery of it is worth 0 points. I think Gannon referred to the necessary skill as 'sophisticated application of basic doctrine', which they don't teach (explicitly). Even knowing that I needed to figure that skill out in a hurry, and having worked to do so, I have no idea whether or not I was successful.

My contracts professor put it this way: It's like spending an entire semester studying famous swimmers, swimming technique, and discussing the ins and outs of swimming - then being thrown into the deep end of a pool. It's not that what you did during the semester isn't necessary, it's that it doesn't even border on sufficient. And the professors, for all their talents and good intentions, don't spend any time in class teaching you how to swim.


This is...kind of terrifying lol

I haven't even gotten any desicions back and still have my last semester of UG ahead of me and now I'm starting to think "shit, how do I start prepping for this thing?"


have as much fun as possible in your final semester of UG.

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biggamejames
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby biggamejames » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:23 pm

Cardboardbox wrote:This is...kind of terrifying lol

It's not terrifying. It's awesome. It means you can still compete in kind of the same league as the psychos that study constantly throughout the semester.

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thesealocust
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:23 pm

superserial wrote:
have as much fun as possible in your final semester of UG.


TITCR. Law school is exhausting, and everyone is so gung-ho about it: buy you won't do yourself any favors trying to learn it before starting it. One of the most devious parts of the experience is you just don't have the necessary background information to start preparing for exams without a solid couple of weeks of schooling under your belt. I thought GTM 'made sense' before law school, but when I read it again during the semester it was a whole new experience.

Snooker
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Snooker » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:08 pm

thesealocust wrote:
superserial wrote:
have as much fun as possible in your final semester of UG.


TITCR. Law school is exhausting, and everyone is so gung-ho about it: buy you won't do yourself any favors trying to learn it before starting it. One of the most devious parts of the experience is you just don't have the necessary background information to start preparing for exams without a solid couple of weeks of schooling under your belt. I thought GTM 'made sense' before law school, but when I read it again during the semester it was a whole new experience.


it is, actually, possible to learn before starting it. However, you must focus on concepts, not the specific rules or trying to apply those rules. To that end, reading the cases and concepts series on the 1L topics - 3 or 4 books at about 300 pages each - should be helpful. Learning about broad concepts like intent, proximate cause, consideration, mutuality, about the judicial process, etc., will just make law school less stressful.
Last edited by Snooker on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JazzOne
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:12 pm

thesealocust wrote:
superserial wrote:
have as much fun as possible in your final semester of UG.


TITCR. Law school is exhausting, and everyone is so gung-ho about it: buy you won't do yourself any favors trying to learn it before starting it. One of the most devious parts of the experience is you just don't have the necessary background information to start preparing for exams without a solid couple of weeks of schooling under your belt. I thought GTM 'made sense' before law school, but when I read it again during the semester it was a whole new experience.

I know this is the majority opinion on TLS, but I disagree. I prepped quite a bit before 1L, and I feel like it helped a lot.

Snooker
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Re: Anyone planning on dropping out if they get bad grades?

Postby Snooker » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:17 pm

JazzOne wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
superserial wrote:
have as much fun as possible in your final semester of UG.


TITCR. Law school is exhausting, and everyone is so gung-ho about it: buy you won't do yourself any favors trying to learn it before starting it. One of the most devious parts of the experience is you just don't have the necessary background information to start preparing for exams without a solid couple of weeks of schooling under your belt. I thought GTM 'made sense' before law school, but when I read it again during the semester it was a whole new experience.

I know this is the majority opinion on TLS, but I disagree. I prepped quite a bit before 1L, and I feel like it helped a lot.


right, the law profs make it seem like you can only learn what negligence or proximate cause, or what a reasonable person is in law school. this is not true.




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