Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2014)
User avatar
Renne Walker
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:12 am

Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby Renne Walker » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:08 pm

Is there any significance to the various “T” breakouts that are constantly appearing on the boards? HYS is one category (too cool to be called T-3), others reference T-6 as being prominent, then T-10, or T-14 and finally Tier-1.

Given that tuition (and the big city cost of living) tends to be decidedly higher at the upper T schools I would like to know if these “T breakouts” are meaningful or just TLS board swagger.

HYS • CCN • PMBV • DNCGT

lawyerwannabe
Posts: 945
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:39 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:14 pm

I have seen (and tend to agree with based on the information I gathered from TLS and the internet):

HYS
CCN
MVPDCN
G

and

HYS
CC
NMVPDCN
G

I like the first one more because while I think N may be slightly below CC, it should be higher than the tier directly below them.

So, to answer your question, some of the breakdowns are pretty meaningless. HYS are the best. Then CCN behind them. Then the rest of the T-14 minus G.

Hope this helps.

bhan87
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:08 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby bhan87 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:18 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:I have seen (and tend to agree with based on the information I gathered from TLS and the internet):

HYS
CCN
MVPDCN
G

and

HYS
CC
NMVPDCN
G

I like the first one more because while I think N may be slightly below CC, it should be higher than the tier directly below them.

So, to answer your question, some of the breakdowns are pretty meaningless. HYS are the best. Then CCN behind them. Then the rest of the T-14 minus G.

Hope this helps.


N is only slightly below CC if you bias towards biglaw / academia. If you bias towards PI, then N > CC. I think HYS and CCN are meaningful breakdowns. MVP(B) is also pretty meaningful. After that, things start blurring together. Any breakdown past the T-14 is pretty meaningless and is really dependent on regional factors.

dabbadon8
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 2:17 am

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby dabbadon8 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:23 pm

Renne Walker wrote:Is there any significance to the various “T” breakouts that are constantly appearing on the boards? HYS is one category (too cool to be called T-3), others reference T-6 as being prominent, then T-10, or T-14 and finally Tier-1.

Given that tuition (and the big city cost of living) tends to be decidedly higher at the upper T schools I would like to know if these “T breakouts” are meaningful or just TLS board swagger.

HYS • CCN • PMBV • DNCGT


A good portion of it is TLS board swagger. Below is a more accurate break down based off stuff like job statistics and student quality. Some people might group NYU with MVPDNC. Some may group cornell with GULC. Too much is made of this tier system and rankings on TLS. I personally almost went to a school I would most likely be less happy with because it was in MVP (aka ranked higher) as opposed to DNCG. With the exception of HYS, most employers think of schools in this tier system, top schools (t-14), good schools, average schools.... And also besides HY there is going to be regional bias for each school.

HYS
CCN
MVPDNC
G
Texas/Vandy/UCLA

bogart
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:07 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby bogart » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:29 pm

Here is how most employers look at rankings:

1. hys
2. rest of t14
3. everyone else
grades will almost always trump "rank" in this section. Geography is equally as important.

User avatar
glitched
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 9:50 am

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby glitched » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:38 pm

ive heard that the tiers are very real for super-elite firms. they always set aside a certain spots for their summer class from the top 5 schools = HYSCC. N is added to such firms in NY.

AND TTTHE RESTTT ARE TTTs!!!!!! LOLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18422
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:41 pm

These are my impressions as a 0L from spending more time than is healthy on TLS:

HYS are in a league of their own, nobody really disputes that. However they don't tend to have a significant advantage percentage-wise in terms of biglaw placement so people tend to advocate that if you just want any biglaw job you are often better off taking a large full tuition scholarship from another T14 over HYS. But yes these schools truly are head and shoulders above the others for many reasons (LRAP, need aid, clerkship placement, academia placement, etc, etc).

CCN is where people start to quibble over whether it is a worthwhile distinction or not. People who say it is meaningless argue that CCN (mainly CLS/NYU) puts too much focus on NYC biglaw when a lot of people don't necessarily want it. They also argue that ITE there isn't a very large, if any, difference between CCN and lower T14's i/r/t biglaw placement. What I have heard people say is that the reason CCN is a thing is because, prior to ITE, they tended to place into much more prestigious biglaw firms than the lower T14.

MVPBDN are all really peers. Some people take issue with Boalt in this group because they, especially as of late, don't tend to place as well, though I would argue that that is because Boalt students are targeting the Bay Area which has been hit extremely hard by the economy. People like to say MVP and I'm not entirely sure why. I think it has more to do with the similarity of MVP i/r/t admissions than it has to do with their prestige and placement power.

C(ornell) is another place where people like to quibble. Some people say T12 and hammer Cornell out of it. My impression is that is mainly for the same reason that dislike CCN with CLS/NYU, that Cornell has a huge focus on NYC biglaw. While yes, all of T14 have their focus set on NYC biglaw, it is CLS/NYU/Cornell (and Penn to some extent) that are the most honed in on it and people tend to take issue with that because they dislike NYC biglaw for whatever reason (dislike of NYC itself, better hours elsewhere, dislike of biglaw, etc). I think it is legitimate to lump it and say MVPBDNC.

G(eorgetown) is the first one that people tend to (at least slightly) legitimately lop off of the T14 and say T13 instead. GULC struggles for a variety of reasons (people say mainly due to its size and the fact that DC is an incredibly competitive and tough market) and thus its placement lags behind the other T14's. Proponents of GULC would argue that it has tons of students who aren't actively competing for biglaw, and GULC does have a lot more public interest and government placement than other T14's, and thus the fact that have less biglaw is not because they are weaker but because their students don't want it as much. My opinion is that GULC probably is slightly weaker, due to size, but that it is pretty damn close to the T14.

T14 is a legitimate distinction in my mind for national schools (assuming you have ties to the area you want to target). Others will say that regionality starts earlier and I would agree (e.g. Boalt for west coast, Penn for east coast, NU for midwest, etc), but that they are still pretty national and well known throughout.

T18 is a distinction that I like (UT/USC/UCLA/Vandy). People like to add UT to the T14 just because it has tied GULC this year but it is still a very regional school compared with any of the T14. The T18 are all regional schools but they are the tippy top and have some mobility (e.g. Vandy does fairly well in NYC). They also have much better prospects than the other strong regional schools, though USC/UCLA seem to be slipping as of late and I'd argue that that is due to the CA economy being shit.

Top Regionals is the next meaningful distinction. It's hard here to give a T# because these schools fluctuate but these are the kings of their region outside of the T14 schools. Think UCD/UCH/BU/BC/WUSTL/Illinois/Fordham/Emory/ND/UMN/etc. These schools have varying employment prospects that is based on their region (e.g. BU/BC/Fordham do the best because their markets are strong and the first 2 have no direct T14 competition since Harvard kids rarely stay in Boston, whereas UCD/UCH struggle because CA is having a tough time).

T1/T2/T3/T4 are meaningless distinctions because they are just dividing the schools up into quartiles for no good reason.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18422
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:43 pm

Fuck that is a wall text.

User avatar
Muenchen
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:42 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby Muenchen » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:53 pm

Image

This is only out of love.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18422
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:54 pm

Muenchen wrote:This is only out of love.


<3

bhan87
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:08 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby bhan87 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:54 pm

bk1 wrote:Fuck that is a wall text.


But a very useful analysis!

bhan87
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:08 pm

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby bhan87 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:56 pm

glitched wrote:ive heard that the tiers are very real for super-elite firms. they always set aside a certain spots for their summer class from the top 5 schools = HYSCC. N is added to such firms in NY.

AND TTTHE RESTTT ARE TTTs!!!!!! LOLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111


This is very true. If you look at hiring for WLRK, they interview applicants from HYSCCNP, and that's about it. HYS gets a bigger share than CCN who gets a bigger share than P.

User avatar
TUP
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:00 am

Re: Any significance to the various “T” breakouts?

Postby TUP » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:10 pm

I considered everything from a T6 at sticker to a regional non-T14 with a huge scholarship, and ended up choosing an option in the middle. I found actual data to be more valuable than tiers based on an online message board. Another thread has NLJ250 data for 2005 and 2007-2010. This is how the averages shake out.

C - 63%
C - 63%
P - 60%
N - 58%
N - 58%
C - 55%
V - 54%
D - 54%
B - 51%
M - 51%
G - 45%

Keep in mind the NLJ250 is very NYC-centric, so to see 3 of the 4 schools placing mostly into that market at the top makes sense. As far as clerkships, data for 2007-2009 is posted elsewhere and the averages break down as follows.

D - 12%
V - 12%
P - 11%
M - 11%
C - 11% (Chi)
C - 9% (Col)
C - 8% (Cornell)
N - 8% (NU)
B - 8%
N - 8% (NYU)
G - 6%




Return to “TLS Class of 2014 Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest