3.91 GPA Transfer options

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aromano95

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3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:18 pm

Hi,

I'm currently attending Chicago-Kent College of Law, which is ranked #92. It has slipped in rankings the past 5 years from mid 60's to 92.
I'm considering transferring after my first year's performance. Can you offer advice on which schools may accept me based on my stats below? Thanks

Class Rank -- #2 (out of 229)
Law School GPA: 3.91/4.0
Undergrad GPA: 4.0/4.0
CALI, contracts (still waiting on CALI's for second semester classes)
Law Review
Moot court
Research Assistant for internationally-known bankruptcy law professor
Judicial externship with federal judge
LSAT: 151
White male...

Applied to University of Chicago, Northwestern, and Harvard. What are my chances at those spots given my stats and is it worth applying to other T10's?

Thanks

RaceJudicata

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby RaceJudicata » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:20 pm

Probably in at Northwestern. Toss up at Chicago (but I'd guess in), and probably out at Harvard.

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UVA2B

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:23 pm

What do you think you want to do after graduation and where would you ideally like to do it?

If you're thinking you want generic Chicago Biglaw, I would apply to Chicago and Northwestern (probably pretty good chance at both of them I would guess), then go back to Kent and try to get serious scholarship money. If you can get Kent to give you a full scholarship to stay over going to Chicago or Northwestern, that's a huge win for you. If you want other things besides generic Chicago Biglaw, this becomes a bit trickier.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:25 pm

UVA2B wrote:What do you think you want to do after graduation and where would you ideally like to do it?

If you're thinking you want generic Chicago Biglaw, I would apply to Chicago and Northwestern (probably pretty good chance at both of them I would guess), then go back to Kent and try to get serious scholarship money. If you can get Kent to give you a full scholarship to stay over going to Chicago or Northwestern, that's a huge win for you. If you want other things besides generic Chicago Biglaw, this becomes a bit trickier.


The plan is to work in Chicago Biglaw for a few year in commercial real estate transactions/M&A/corporate (either of those) and then transition out into actual commercial real estate development and investment. Not intending to stay in the legal world for too long before transitioning into the business world...

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby rpupkin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:27 pm

UVA2B wrote:What do you think you want to do after graduation and where would you ideally like to do it?

If you're thinking you want generic Chicago Biglaw, I would apply to Chicago and Northwestern (probably pretty good chance at both of them I would guess), then go back to Kent and try to get serious scholarship money. If you can get Kent to give you a full scholarship to stay over going to Chicago or Northwestern, that's a huge win for you. If you want other things besides generic Chicago Biglaw, this becomes a bit trickier.

Agree with all this.
Last edited by rpupkin on Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:28 pm

aromano95 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:What do you think you want to do after graduation and where would you ideally like to do it?

If you're thinking you want generic Chicago Biglaw, I would apply to Chicago and Northwestern (probably pretty good chance at both of them I would guess), then go back to Kent and try to get serious scholarship money. If you can get Kent to give you a full scholarship to stay over going to Chicago or Northwestern, that's a huge win for you. If you want other things besides generic Chicago Biglaw, this becomes a bit trickier.


The plan is to work in Chicago Biglaw for a few year in commercial real estate transactions/M&A/corporate (either of those) and then transition out into actual commercial real estate development and investment. Not intending to stay in the legal world for too long before transitioning into the business world...


Then I'd apply to Chicago and Northwestern while trying to negotiate scholarships with Kent. In your position, I personally think the best option is Kent on a full ride for the last two years. You're in a position to get your goals out of Kent, and you could potentially do the last two years tuition-free.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby bretby » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:34 pm

UVA2B wrote:
aromano95 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:What do you think you want to do after graduation and where would you ideally like to do it?

If you're thinking you want generic Chicago Biglaw, I would apply to Chicago and Northwestern (probably pretty good chance at both of them I would guess), then go back to Kent and try to get serious scholarship money. If you can get Kent to give you a full scholarship to stay over going to Chicago or Northwestern, that's a huge win for you. If you want other things besides generic Chicago Biglaw, this becomes a bit trickier.


The plan is to work in Chicago Biglaw for a few year in commercial real estate transactions/M&A/corporate (either of those) and then transition out into actual commercial real estate development and investment. Not intending to stay in the legal world for too long before transitioning into the business world...


Then I'd apply to Chicago and Northwestern while trying to negotiate scholarships with Kent. In your position, I personally think the best option is Kent on a full ride for the last two years. You're in a position to get your goals out of Kent, and you could potentially do the last two years tuition-free.


Just a warning that I don't think many schools will give you more scholarship money to stay.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:35 pm

RaceJudicata wrote:Probably in at Northwestern. Toss up at Chicago (but I'd guess in), and probably out at Harvard.



because of what? low LSAT?

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:38 pm

bretby wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
aromano95 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:What do you think you want to do after graduation and where would you ideally like to do it?

If you're thinking you want generic Chicago Biglaw, I would apply to Chicago and Northwestern (probably pretty good chance at both of them I would guess), then go back to Kent and try to get serious scholarship money. If you can get Kent to give you a full scholarship to stay over going to Chicago or Northwestern, that's a huge win for you. If you want other things besides generic Chicago Biglaw, this becomes a bit trickier.


The plan is to work in Chicago Biglaw for a few year in commercial real estate transactions/M&A/corporate (either of those) and then transition out into actual commercial real estate development and investment. Not intending to stay in the legal world for too long before transitioning into the business world...


Then I'd apply to Chicago and Northwestern while trying to negotiate scholarships with Kent. In your position, I personally think the best option is Kent on a full ride for the last two years. You're in a position to get your goals out of Kent, and you could potentially do the last two years tuition-free.


Just a warning that I don't think many schools will give you more scholarship money to stay.


That's fair, and I was assuming not much scholarship money to begin with here. But the best way to negotiate in this situation is to get an acceptance in hand and see what they do. If they're willing to play ball, great. But if not, you have the freedom to pick between Kent at the current scholarship amount (which hasn't been mentioned yet, so that would probably be helpful in deciding whether transferring would be a good call when that option came up) or going to the new transfer school.

They may not negotiate, but there is only one way to find out if they'll play ball.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:42 pm

UVA2B wrote:
bretby wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
aromano95 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:What do you think you want to do after graduation and where would you ideally like to do it?

If you're thinking you want generic Chicago Biglaw, I would apply to Chicago and Northwestern (probably pretty good chance at both of them I would guess), then go back to Kent and try to get serious scholarship money. If you can get Kent to give you a full scholarship to stay over going to Chicago or Northwestern, that's a huge win for you. If you want other things besides generic Chicago Biglaw, this becomes a bit trickier.


The plan is to work in Chicago Biglaw for a few year in commercial real estate transactions/M&A/corporate (either of those) and then transition out into actual commercial real estate development and investment. Not intending to stay in the legal world for too long before transitioning into the business world...


Then I'd apply to Chicago and Northwestern while trying to negotiate scholarships with Kent. In your position, I personally think the best option is Kent on a full ride for the last two years. You're in a position to get your goals out of Kent, and you could potentially do the last two years tuition-free.


Just a warning that I don't think many schools will give you more scholarship money to stay.


That's fair, and I was assuming not much scholarship money to begin with here. But the best way to negotiate in this situation is to get an acceptance in hand and see what they do. If they're willing to play ball, great. But if not, you have the freedom to pick between Kent at the current scholarship amount (which hasn't been mentioned yet, so that would probably be helpful in deciding whether transferring would be a good call when that option came up) or going to the new transfer school.

They may not negotiate, but there is only one way to find out if they'll play ball.



Currently on a total of $55K worth of scholarships. First year paid for in full, so would be left with around $50K in debt as of today, as opposed to the $120K I would be in debt at NU or UC

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:58 pm

I don't think it makes much sense to pay $70k extra for Northwestern or Chicago in your situation and given your goals. But you should still apply and try to negotiate more money out of Kent. Keep in mind that you have leverage with the acceptance to the higher school, but you also potentially have leverage because you're a current student that is pretty obviously going to be a win for them in the employment column, which they undoubtedly care about as well. Make clear to them you're serious about transferring for all of the improved opportunities available at Northwestern or Chicago, and that it just doesn't make financial sense for you to pass up that kind of opportunity. If you frame it that you're making a strictly financial assessment here and you believe the opportunities available to you at Chicago and Northwestern that just aren't available at Kent are worth the extra cost, but you'd reconsider if the finances were different, I'd be surprised if they didn't at least consider increasing your scholarship amount. They aren't buying your uGPA/LSAT anymore: they're buying your employability in the market.

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How realistic are my T10 transfer apps?

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Hello,

Current student at Chicago-Kent, school is ranked #92, which is a result of a slip in rankings the past 5 years from the mid 60's to 92.
Considering transferring after my first year's performance. Can you surmise which schools may accept me based on my below stats? Thank you!

Class Rank is #2 (out of 229)
Law School GPA is 3.91/4.0
Undergrad GPA is 4.0/4.0
CALI in contracts (still waiting on CALI's for second semester classes)
Graded on to Law Review
Tried out and made Moot court
Currently serving as a Research Assistant for internationally-known bankruptcy law professor
Secured a judicial externship with federal judge
My LSAT was 151
I started a charitable foundation to assist homeless individuals
I am a white male...

So far, I have applied to University of Chicago, Northwestern, and Harvard. Can you tell me what my chances are at those schools given my stats?
Also, is it worth applying to other T10's?

Thank you!

A note from the mods: Please stop spamming the other forums with threads. Transfer questions go in this forum and since you already have a thread open I've parked your post here.

Thanks

aromano95

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:57 pm

UVA2B wrote:I don't think it makes much sense to pay $70k extra for Northwestern or Chicago in your situation and given your goals. But you should still apply and try to negotiate more money out of Kent. Keep in mind that you have leverage with the acceptance to the higher school, but you also potentially have leverage because you're a current student that is pretty obviously going to be a win for them in the employment column, which they undoubtedly care about as well. Make clear to them you're serious about transferring for all of the improved opportunities available at Northwestern or Chicago, and that it just doesn't make financial sense for you to pass up that kind of opportunity. If you frame it that you're making a strictly financial assessment here and you believe the opportunities available to you at Chicago and Northwestern that just aren't available at Kent are worth the extra cost, but you'd reconsider if the finances were different, I'd be surprised if they didn't at least consider increasing your scholarship amount. They aren't buying your uGPA/LSAT anymore: they're buying your employability in the market.


I tend to agree, however, 2 points for counter. 1) While it is not my plan to stay in big law/the legal world, what if that plan changes once I get into the arena, and I want to stay? Wouldn't I regret not having made the transfer when it was possible if it could afford be better opportunities such as leaving to go in-house/general advancement in the field? 2) Isn't the network of UC/NU invaluable in terms of business connections/network/alum who are involved in the business world? While I know I can blaze my own trail, certainly that network could only advance my goals further. While it would be nice to be debt-free in the short-term, in the end, isn't my earning potential much larger and thus able to offset that $70K extra?

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:09 pm

If you want to stay, lateral, or move in-house, it'll be much more about your firm job and experience. And while the alumni network at Chicago and northwestern are much stronger nationally, that isn't likely to have a huge impact on your career directly. Look at it this way: you end up at Sidley Austin for an SA out of Kent (purely illustrative). You're elbow to elbow with a bunch of Chicago and northwestern SAs as well as some Michigan, UIUC, and some other T13. You are all basically fungible as SAs because you're not expected to know how to do anything. At the end of the summer, you all get offers for following graduation. You know what you'll all be after graduating? Associates at Sidley Austin. If you do good work and thrive for that firm, not a single person will care that you graduated from Kent and not Northwestern.

Northwestern is better than Kent when you're picking schools because more of the class will end up in desirable employment. But if you do well enough at Kent, which you have done, you won't be seen any differently than the slightly above median Northwestern students.

If you said you were interested in NYC or DC or LA Biglaw, we'd be having very different conversations. But your school and GPA can get you what you want following graduation. What you do from there is on you as much as it is on the Northwestern or Chicago grad. But don't be fooled that the name alone will continue paying dividends more than your work as an attorney will. Your reputation will be built in the law firm, not on your bio on the firm website.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:17 pm

UVA2B wrote:If you want to stay, lateral, or move in-house, it'll be much more about your firm job and experience. And while the alumni network at Chicago and northwestern are much stronger nationally, that isn't likely to have a huge impact on your career directly. Look at it this way: you end up at Sidley Austin for an SA out of Kent (purely illustrative). You're elbow to elbow with a bunch of Chicago and northwestern SAs as well as some Michigan, UIUC, and some other T13. You are all basically fungible as SAs because you're not expected to know how to do anything. At the end of the summer, you all get offers for following graduation. You know what you'll all be after graduating? Associates at Sidley Austin. If you do good work and thrive for that firm, not a single person will care that you graduated from Kent and not Northwestern.

Northwestern is better than Kent when you're picking schools because more of the class will end up in desirable employment. But if you do well enough at Kent, which you have done, you won't be seen any differently than the slightly above median Northwestern students.

If you said you were interested in NYC or DC or LA Biglaw, we'd be having very different conversations. But your school and GPA can get you what you want following graduation. What you do from there is on you as much as it is on the Northwestern or Chicago grad. But don't be fooled that the name alone will continue paying dividends more than your work as an attorney will. Your reputation will be built in the law firm, not on your bio on the firm website.


Great insight, thank you.
Any thoughts on Harvard and my chances there? Should I bother sending out more apps to Columbia/Yale/Berkley in particular?

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:25 pm

aromano95 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:If you want to stay, lateral, or move in-house, it'll be much more about your firm job and experience. And while the alumni network at Chicago and northwestern are much stronger nationally, that isn't likely to have a huge impact on your career directly. Look at it this way: you end up at Sidley Austin for an SA out of Kent (purely illustrative). You're elbow to elbow with a bunch of Chicago and northwestern SAs as well as some Michigan, UIUC, and some other T13. You are all basically fungible as SAs because you're not expected to know how to do anything. At the end of the summer, you all get offers for following graduation. You know what you'll all be after graduating? Associates at Sidley Austin. If you do good work and thrive for that firm, not a single person will care that you graduated from Kent and not Northwestern.

Northwestern is better than Kent when you're picking schools because more of the class will end up in desirable employment. But if you do well enough at Kent, which you have done, you won't be seen any differently than the slightly above median Northwestern students.

If you said you were interested in NYC or DC or LA Biglaw, we'd be having very different conversations. But your school and GPA can get you what you want following graduation. What you do from there is on you as much as it is on the Northwestern or Chicago grad. But don't be fooled that the name alone will continue paying dividends more than your work as an attorney will. Your reputation will be built in the law firm, not on your bio on the firm website.


Great insight, thank you.
Any thoughts on Harvard and my chances there? Should I bother sending out more apps to Columbia/Yale/Berkley in particular?


Maybe you're not fully understanding my point here: it doesn't make sense with your goals to pay significantly more for another education when the one you're getting will get you what you want. The only really good reason for applying for any transfer would be for scholarship negotiating purposes. Chicago-Kent will get you to your goals, and paying more for any of those names won't do anything for you (and Berkeley would be flatly non-sensical since you want to end up in Chicago).

Let's try this from the opposite perspective: do you see yourself changing your mind in the next year where you imagine wanting to work for the DOJ, ACLU, or the SEC? Do you want a shot at Cravath or another elite crust firm not in Chicago? These are the types of reasons to transfer to those higher ranking schools. Wanting corporate Biglaw in Chicago means those schools, especially as a transfer, won't give you even a modicum of advantage. If you think your goals could change to those really hard to get jobs, then you should make that known so myself and anyone else reading this understands your goals could become bigger than corporate Biglaw in Chicago. But until you do that, there isn't a single transfer situation that would make sense.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:35 pm

UVA2B wrote:
aromano95 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:If you want to stay, lateral, or move in-house, it'll be much more about your firm job and experience. And while the alumni network at Chicago and northwestern are much stronger nationally, that isn't likely to have a huge impact on your career directly. Look at it this way: you end up at Sidley Austin for an SA out of Kent (purely illustrative). You're elbow to elbow with a bunch of Chicago and northwestern SAs as well as some Michigan, UIUC, and some other T13. You are all basically fungible as SAs because you're not expected to know how to do anything. At the end of the summer, you all get offers for following graduation. You know what you'll all be after graduating? Associates at Sidley Austin. If you do good work and thrive for that firm, not a single person will care that you graduated from Kent and not Northwestern.

Northwestern is better than Kent when you're picking schools because more of the class will end up in desirable employment. But if you do well enough at Kent, which you have done, you won't be seen any differently than the slightly above median Northwestern students.

If you said you were interested in NYC or DC or LA Biglaw, we'd be having very different conversations. But your school and GPA can get you what you want following graduation. What you do from there is on you as much as it is on the Northwestern or Chicago grad. But don't be fooled that the name alone will continue paying dividends more than your work as an attorney will. Your reputation will be built in the law firm, not on your bio on the firm website.


Great insight, thank you.
Any thoughts on Harvard and my chances there? Should I bother sending out more apps to Columbia/Yale/Berkley in particular?


Maybe you're not fully understanding my point here: it doesn't make sense with your goals to pay significantly more for another education when the one you're getting will get you what you want. The only really good reason for applying for any transfer would be for scholarship negotiating purposes. Chicago-Kent will get you to your goals, and paying more for any of those names won't do anything for you (and Berkeley would be flatly non-sensical since you want to end up in Chicago).

Let's try this from the opposite perspective: do you see yourself changing your mind in the next year where you imagine wanting to work for the DOJ, ACLU, or the SEC? Do you want a shot at Cravath or another elite crust firm not in Chicago? These are the types of reasons to transfer to those higher ranking schools. Wanting corporate Biglaw in Chicago means those schools, especially as a transfer, won't give you even a modicum of advantage. If you think your goals could change to those really hard to get jobs, then you should make that known so myself and anyone else reading this understands your goals could become bigger than corporate Biglaw in Chicago. But until you do that, there isn't a single transfer situation that would make sense.


I certainly understand your point, and everything you've stated are the reasons holding me back from being dead set on leaving Kent - I can likely accomplish what I want to out f Kent, and that would be especially nice if I can get out with extra scholarship money.
That said, I want to keep my options open, as my ideas on the career seem to vacillate between staying in the field for a long time as opposed to getting in and out. For that reason, I feel comfortable applying to these other big name schools just to keep every single option open. I ask myself "if someone put a penny, nickel, and dime in front of me and told me I can pick whichever one I want, I would likely shoot for the dime, unless the penny is undoubtably a better choice." So, what I'm saying is that I want the most coins on the table, and then pick from those. That's why I ask about the likelihoods of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Berkeley. Perhaps we can just put the preceding ideas to the side and objectively look at the chances of gaining admission into these schools.

Thanks so much!

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby Nebby » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:37 pm

Good shot at every T14 except HYS. Whether it's a good move is a different question. Do you have a scholarship at Kent?

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:26 pm

How do people already know they're on law review so soon after 1L year? If I recall correctly, don't law review decisions come late summer?

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:30 pm

Nebby wrote:Good shot at every T14 except HYS. Whether it's a good move is a different question. Do you have a scholarship at Kent?


Seriously contemplated doing a Nebby call-in, glad you showed up.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby rpupkin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:40 pm

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:How do people already know they're on law review so soon after 1L year? If I recall correctly, don't law review decisions come late summer?

It varies by school. Some schools have a certain percentage of LR slots that are reserved for grading on, so some folks know as soon as grades/rank are in.

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:48 pm

Nebby wrote:Good shot at every T14 except HYS. Whether it's a good move is a different question. Do you have a scholarship at Kent?


Have $20K in scholarship each year remaining. Meaning after that, I'd owe a balance of $50K, which would be $70K less than sticker at NU or UC

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby Nebby » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:55 pm

aromano95 wrote:
Nebby wrote:Good shot at every T14 except HYS. Whether it's a good move is a different question. Do you have a scholarship at Kent?


Have $20K in scholarship each year remaining. Meaning after that, I'd owe a balance of $50K, which would be $70K less than sticker at NU or UC

Would sticker at either be closer to 130k? Thus you'd owe 80k more?

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby aromano95 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:56 pm

Nebby wrote:
aromano95 wrote:
Nebby wrote:Good shot at every T14 except HYS. Whether it's a good move is a different question. Do you have a scholarship at Kent?


Have $20K in scholarship each year remaining. Meaning after that, I'd owe a balance of $50K, which would be $70K less than sticker at NU or UC

Would sticker at either be closer to 130k? Thus you'd owe 80k more?



Both are between 59-61K, so 120 is the tough ballpark

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Re: 3.91 GPA Transfer options

Postby Nebby » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:11 am

aromano95 wrote:
Nebby wrote:
aromano95 wrote:
Nebby wrote:Good shot at every T14 except HYS. Whether it's a good move is a different question. Do you have a scholarship at Kent?


Have $20K in scholarship each year remaining. Meaning after that, I'd owe a balance of $50K, which would be $70K less than sticker at NU or UC

Would sticker at either be closer to 130k? Thus you'd owe 80k more?



Both are between 59-61K, so 120 is the tough ballpark

Is that tuition + COL?



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