Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

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Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:53 pm

So, just received grades and I did better than I expected, ending with 4.0, some A+'s and a CALI. Zero interest in biglaw; PI focus, desire to clerk, I'll be happy in life without a unicorn job but I'm not going to pretend I wouldn't like one, ultimately would be very happy in legal academy but it isn't my sole goal... Mainly I'd be interested in going to Y, and I guess it's silly to even ask chances, but if anyone has thoughts I'll take them.

I have 2 main concerns--I haven't started the process at all yet (I was waiting for grades, probably a mistake)- is it just too late for H?

Bigger question--is transfer worthwhile to either H or Y? I have a substantial scholarship currently and I'm quite happy where I am in terms of what is offered and opportunities I have as a student. I have a sense I could get a decent amount of need-based aid from H or Y, though I'm not positive. I worry that if I apply and don't get in I'll burn bridges with 1L profs who would be more supportive for clerkships if I didn't first ask them to recommend me for transfer...on the other hand, I know my chances at unicorn jobs and academia are diminished if I stay put.

Please don't quote

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby cornell2020 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:09 pm

Shouldn't someone at the top of their class at Georgetown be roughly as well off as someone who transferred from Georgetown to Harvard or Yale?

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:15 pm

Yea I mean that's what I'm asking. Is that really the case, especially in the long term? I get that it would be if I were doing biglaw, but I'm emphatically not...

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby GFox345 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:32 pm

No. Top of the class at GULC is better of than median at Harvard or Yale by a lot. Also, you'd lose your scholarship for the privilege of losing your excellent grades. Quit worrying about your school. You're gonna get a fine clerkship with your grades.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby SmokeytheBear » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:24 pm

Echoing the voices that say stay put. You're going to get a fine clerkship which will set you up for a fine job in PI. Only consideration might be what kind of LRAP your school has compared to NYU or HLS, but since you have a substantial scholarship, that kinda kills the need for it.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:49 pm

I echo the above

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:16 pm

Thanks for this advice. I totally hear this and honestly would rather not waste my time applying and uprooting. I'm feeling like I won't try for transfer. I guess the thing that nags at me is that while I'm well situated for a "fine" clerkship and "fine" PI job, what about an awesome one? I get that I may be making too much of the language that was used, but before I foreclose this forever, is it not simply true that graduates of yale and Harvard have a better shot at legal academia, have a better shot at more competitive PI positions, and on and on? I can't help but feel like having those names on my resume would open doors that aren't open to me now, 1L grades or not. This isn't very scientific of me, it's just every organization I want to work for is stacked with ppl from hys.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby NoDayButToday » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:13 pm

I think you should apply. Transferring is always a bit risky, but if you can afford it $-wise, it can be worth the risk. Yale is known for cool PI and unicorn jobs. You'll continue to perform well academically if you want to.

I think it's pretty unlikely profs will hold a transfer attempt against you if you end up staying. They expect the top students to consider a transfer out--and it's still in their/the school's best interests for you to get a badass clerkship if you stay.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby sanzgo » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:26 pm

it's worth applying to Y; forget H though.

sure, if you do end up going to Y, you'll have to prove yourself once again but at least Y has a transfer write-on and it's much easier to get H's than A's there. you should definitely be able to clerk out of yale assuming you're willing to forge relationships with profs and are also willing to clerk a year+ out of law school.

that being said, i would stay. you're top of the class at a T14 and that is already set in stone. believe it or not, you're a hotter commodity than the majority of yale students right now. idk what kind of unicorn jobs you're looking at but no unicorn job is going to take a median hys grad over you just b/c you're not from hys. perhaps the unicorn jobs you're looking at have a ton of hys people b/c they tend to attract the top students from hys but if you transfer to HY, you go back to being average.

honestly, getting a DC/feeder clerkship from your school is going to set you on the path towards those unicorn jobs you're talking about much much more than having the HY name on your diploma with a less prestigious clerkship. of course, these positions aren't easy to get even for a t-14 4.0 but staying at your school gives you the best chance for snagging one of these clerkships.

i'd go as far as to say you actually have a higher chance of getting a unicorny job by staying if you play your cards right. maybe the one exception is academia and as to that, i really have no idea.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:25 pm

Thanks to everyone for the advice. Not really sure what I'm going to do, but its helpful to hear the pros and cons. Its a super long shot to get into Y...might be worth seeing if I have the option at least. Totally see the strong arguments for staying put--no point in giving up a good thing. Anyway, appreciate all the input.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby GFox345 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice. Not really sure what I'm going to do, but its helpful to hear the pros and cons. Its a super long shot to get into Y...might be worth seeing if I have the option at least. Totally see the strong arguments for staying put--no point in giving up a good thing. Anyway, appreciate all the input.


You're likely to get better than a "fine" clerkship in the top 2% at GULC. You've got a significant chance at getting a Federal CoA. You are not all that likely to do better at Yale. It's not worth the increased cost, let alone the risk you take in giving up your grades. The people above are just straight up wrong.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:26 pm

GFox345 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice. Not really sure what I'm going to do, but its helpful to hear the pros and cons. Its a super long shot to get into Y...might be worth seeing if I have the option at least. Totally see the strong arguments for staying put--no point in giving up a good thing. Anyway, appreciate all the input.


You're likely to get better than a "fine" clerkship in the top 2% at GULC. You've got a significant chance at getting a Federal CoA. You are not all that likely to do better at Yale. It's not worth the increased cost, let alone the risk you take in giving up your grades. The people above are just straight up wrong.


I agree with you short term--what about long term?

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby lavarman84 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
GFox345 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice. Not really sure what I'm going to do, but its helpful to hear the pros and cons. Its a super long shot to get into Y...might be worth seeing if I have the option at least. Totally see the strong arguments for staying put--no point in giving up a good thing. Anyway, appreciate all the input.


You're likely to get better than a "fine" clerkship in the top 2% at GULC. You've got a significant chance at getting a Federal CoA. You are not all that likely to do better at Yale. It's not worth the increased cost, let alone the risk you take in giving up your grades. The people above are just straight up wrong.


I agree with you short term--what about long term?


What's the difference going to be long-term? Getting a top clerkship will do more for you than a school on your resume.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby sanzgo » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
GFox345 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice. Not really sure what I'm going to do, but its helpful to hear the pros and cons. Its a super long shot to get into Y...might be worth seeing if I have the option at least. Totally see the strong arguments for staying put--no point in giving up a good thing. Anyway, appreciate all the input.


You're likely to get better than a "fine" clerkship in the top 2% at GULC. You've got a significant chance at getting a Federal CoA. You are not all that likely to do better at Yale. It's not worth the increased cost, let alone the risk you take in giving up your grades. The people above are just straight up wrong.


I agree with you short term--what about long term?


your short term gains will translate to better long term gains

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby GFox345 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:20 am

lavarman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
GFox345 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice. Not really sure what I'm going to do, but its helpful to hear the pros and cons. Its a super long shot to get into Y...might be worth seeing if I have the option at least. Totally see the strong arguments for staying put--no point in giving up a good thing. Anyway, appreciate all the input.


You're likely to get better than a "fine" clerkship in the top 2% at GULC. You've got a significant chance at getting a Federal CoA. You are not all that likely to do better at Yale. It's not worth the increased cost, let alone the risk you take in giving up your grades. The people above are just straight up wrong.


I agree with you short term--what about long term?


What's the difference going to be long-term? Getting a top clerkship will do more for you than a school on your resume.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:37 pm

GFox345 wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
GFox345 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to everyone for the advice. Not really sure what I'm going to do, but its helpful to hear the pros and cons. Its a super long shot to get into Y...might be worth seeing if I have the option at least. Totally see the strong arguments for staying put--no point in giving up a good thing. Anyway, appreciate all the input.


You're likely to get better than a "fine" clerkship in the top 2% at GULC. You've got a significant chance at getting a Federal CoA. You are not all that likely to do better at Yale. It's not worth the increased cost, let alone the risk you take in giving up your grades. The people above are just straight up wrong.


I agree with you short term--what about long term?


What's the difference going to be long-term? Getting a top clerkship will do more for you than a school on your resume.


Totally hear this, and I'm very strongly leaning towards not applying. Just to close the loop on this, I guess what I meant was that I know I have an easier shot at a top clerkship if I stay, and I'm not guaranteed anything were I to transfer (except the Y degree), but even if it takes me longer to get a Federal CoA if I transferred, I'd then have that plus a Y degree. So longer term, would I not be better off? I know this makes the large assumption that I'd do well enough at Y and foster the relationships necessary to get the clerkship, ultimately. So I guess my point is that there is a risk to transferring but there seems to be a corresponding reward. What I'm gleaning is that people who have commented seem to think the risks are quite large and the rewards are low (ie, Y plus CoA clerkship isn't much better than GULC plus CoA clerkship). I can see the logic in that, and I guess in some ways it is about subjective appetite for risk.

I guess the other thing I've been thinking about is that while the clerkship is hugely important, I'm interested in fields like international human rights where that may not be as important and where a Y degree and opportunities it opens up in terms of fellowships, networking, etc. could be quite useful. Generally the Y degree seems to offer me more flexibility, but that could just be me believing some bs.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby lavarman84 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Totally hear this, and I'm very strongly leaning towards not applying. Just to close the loop on this, I guess what I meant was that I know I have an easier shot at a top clerkship if I stay, and I'm not guaranteed anything were I to transfer (except the Y degree), but even if it takes me longer to get a Federal CoA if I transferred, I'd then have that plus a Y degree. So longer term, would I not be better off? I know this makes the large assumption that I'd do well enough at Y and foster the relationships necessary to get the clerkship, ultimately. So I guess my point is that there is a risk to transferring but there seems to be a corresponding reward. What I'm gleaning is that people who have commented seem to think the risks are quite large and the rewards are low (ie, Y plus CoA clerkship isn't much better than GULC plus CoA clerkship). I can see the logic in that, and I guess in some ways it is about subjective appetite for risk.


At Y, you're starting over without institutional support and top grades. You can achieve both, but you still have to do that. Based on your success where you are, you likely would, but it's not guaranteed.

On the other hand, if you start moving now at GULC, you might have a top clerkship lined up by the end of the fall (if not sooner). In addition to that, you won't be sacrificing your substantial scholarship and taking on additional debt.

At the end of the day, I don't really see a ton of upside. Top of the class at GULC is still going to get you almost anywhere. A top clerkship will do the same. There are diminishing returns considering where you are now. Y offers diminished returns for you. The reward in transferring is minimal imo. The risk is much greater.

If you had no scholarship, I think it would be a good option. Considering your scholarship and credentials, you're likely going to end up giving up more than you get. Even if you end up with a similar or slightly better clerkship, you also end up with that debt.(and I realize that you're likely to do PI and that Y has LRAP, but it's still nice not to have the debt hanging over your head)

I guess the other thing I've been thinking about is that while the clerkship is hugely important, I'm interested in fields like international human rights where that may not be as important and where a Y degree and opportunities it opens up in terms of fellowships, networking, etc. could be quite useful. Generally the Y degree seems to offer me more flexibility, but that could just be me believing some bs.


I honestly don't have the knowledge of that field, so I'll leave it to others who can offer more here. Maybe this changes things. I don't know.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby GFox345 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:33 pm

I agree with the entirety of the analysis above. The move you are proposing is essentially all risk and no reward. Unicorn jobs are accessible to people at the very top of their class in the T-14. I struggle to see a large reward even in the best-case scenario given your prospects with you current grades. Just stay put, enjoy your scholarship, and be happy with your grades. You've earned it. Really.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:25 am

I've basically decided not to apply. But one last question- I didn't try for journal, which probably will make clerkships harder to get. So one last time, still right call not to apply? I'm pretty much down to the wire here anyway if I wanted to apply anyway but this'll help put me at ease with this decision...

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've basically decided not to apply. But one last question- I didn't try for journal, which probably will make clerkships harder to get. So one last time, still right call not to apply? I'm pretty much down to the wire here anyway if I wanted to apply anyway but this'll help put me at ease with this decision...

What about secondary journal at your current school? I don't think the debt is worth it just so you can get on a secondary journal at the transfer school.

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Re: Bottom of T14 to HY--chances? worthwhile? still feasible?

Postby sanzgo » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've basically decided not to apply. But one last question- I didn't try for journal, which probably will make clerkships harder to get. So one last time, still right call not to apply? I'm pretty much down to the wire here anyway if I wanted to apply anyway but this'll help put me at ease with this decision...


apply to yale only and see if you get in. you're still better off staying (w/ no journal) even if you get into yale imo but if you're willing to risk losing your first-year grades in the hopes of making ylr, continuing to do well 2L-3L, making connections with the right profs at yale, and are also willing to clerk 1-2 years out of LS, then yeah, go to yale.

with a 4.0 from gulc, even w/out LR, you still have a chance at feeder clerkship that starts in 2019. if you transfer to yale, whether or not you make journal, feeder clerkship starting in 2019 is difficult.



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