T80: Thinking of Transferring to T10

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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KijiStewart

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T80: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby KijiStewart » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:03 pm

Hi everyone,

Currently a 1L at T60. 1st semester GPA brings me ~top 6% (A in Legal Writing).

I want to work in a medium sized firm. If I do transfer, it would be so I can better enjoy the curriculum of a T10 school more than the better job prospects because I'm confident I can still get OCI at my current school.

Which top 10s do I have a shot at?
Last edited by KijiStewart on Fri May 12, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

acr

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby acr » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:42 pm

Better enjoy the curriculum? I don't think that's a very good reason to transfer, nor do I know what "enjoying the curriculum better" means.

And given your current grades all T10's are in play. It depends on how you finish. Good job last semester but the game's only half over. Worry about this after you get your spring grades unless you're applying to Chicago or Georgetown ED.

KijiStewart

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby KijiStewart » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:40 pm

While the profs at 50-60 range are very good; objectively speaking, I would assume that classes at the T10 level are taught at a more in-depth and intellectually fulfilling level. We sometimes spend hours just going over facts of cases.

Thanks!

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby umichman » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:43 pm

KijiStewart wrote: We sometimes spend hours just going over facts of cases.

Thanks!


So do we. Maybe at chicago they are more intellectual than us as T6rs. At a T8 over here, and we spend plenty of time going over mundane shit.

RaceJudicata

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby RaceJudicata » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:45 pm

KijiStewart wrote:While the profs at 50-60 range are very good; objectively speaking, I would assume that classes at the T10 level are taught at a more in-depth and intellectually fulfilling level. We sometimes spend hours just going over facts of cases.

Thanks!


Top schools are also far less practical (IMHO). That said, transferring for curriculum purposes made me chuckle.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby Npret » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:00 am

KijiStewart wrote:Hi everyone,

Currently a 1L at T60. 1st semester GPA brings me ~top 6% (A in Legal Writing).

I want to work in a medium sized firm. If I do transfer, it would be so I can better enjoy the curriculum of a T10 school more than the better job prospects because I'm confident I can still get OCI at my current school.

Which top 10s do I have a shot at?

What kind of medium size firm? There aren't many. What do you want to do?
What money are you getting from current school?
Where do you want to practice?

Caution: don't be over confident about job prospects ever. Law is a super oversaturated field. The competition is tough. School is its own bubble but you can't just show a transcript and walk into a job.
Transferring might make finding a job more difficult because of the way firms sometimes treat transfer students.

Forget about the intellectual rigor of the curriculum. You go to law school to get a job- unless maybe you don't need to work for money in which case do what you want.

KijiStewart

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby KijiStewart » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:03 am

RaceJudicata wrote:
KijiStewart wrote:While the profs at 50-60 range are very good; objectively speaking, I would assume that classes at the T10 level are taught at a more in-depth and intellectually fulfilling level. We sometimes spend hours just going over facts of cases.

Thanks!


Top schools are also far less practical (IMHO). That said, transferring for curriculum purposes made me chuckle.


I also feel that people here don't take a very intellectual approach to their legal education. Most of us here are here because they hope to get $$$ from big law but don't really want to be a lawyer for the sake of practicing the profession's craft. Moreover, many overtly say they hate being in law school and were literally crying when christmas break was done. Sure 1L anywhere can be tough, but I would hope that people at T14s have a more positive outlook, genuinely appreciate the study of law and want to be a lawyer for reasons besides the possibility of bringing home the $$$.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby Npret » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:05 am

KijiStewart wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
KijiStewart wrote:While the profs at 50-60 range are very good; objectively speaking, I would assume that classes at the T10 level are taught at a more in-depth and intellectually fulfilling level. We sometimes spend hours just going over facts of cases.

Thanks!


Top schools are also far less practical (IMHO). That said, transferring for curriculum purposes made me chuckle.


I also feel that people here don't take a very intellectual approach to their legal education. Most of us here are here because they hope to get $$$ from big law but don't really want to be a lawyer for the sake of practicing the profession's craft. Moreover, many overtly say they hate being in law school and were literally crying when christmas break was done. Sure 1L anywhere can be tough, but I would hope that people at T14s have a more positive outlook, genuinely appreciate the study of law and want to be a lawyer for reasons besides the possibility of bringing home the $$$.

You have an unrealistic view of life at a higher ranked school. Go visit some. Or post here asking questions. Most of the T14 people are chasing biglaw money or prestige or both.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby mjb447 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:09 am

KijiStewart wrote:I would hope that people at T14s have a more positive outlook, genuinely appreciate the study of law and want to be a lawyer for reasons besides the possibility of bringing home the $$$.

Your hope is largely misplaced.

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UVA2B

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby UVA2B » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:13 am

mjb447 wrote:
KijiStewart wrote:I would hope that people at T14s have a more positive outlook, genuinely appreciate the study of law and want to be a lawyer for reasons besides the possibility probability of bringing home the $$$.

Your hope is largely misplaced.


More accurate, but not at all encouraging. Idealists still exist, but it's fleeting at this point.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby KijiStewart » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:21 am

Npret wrote:
KijiStewart wrote:Hi everyone,

Currently a 1L at T60. 1st semester GPA brings me ~top 6% (A in Legal Writing).

I want to work in a medium sized firm. If I do transfer, it would be so I can better enjoy the curriculum of a T10 school more than the better job prospects because I'm confident I can still get OCI at my current school.

Which top 10s do I have a shot at?

What kind of medium size firm? There aren't many. What do you want to do?
What money are you getting from current school?
Where do you want to practice?

Caution: don't be over confident about job prospects ever. Law is a super oversaturated field. The competition is tough. School is its own bubble but you can't just show a transcript and walk into a job.
Transferring might make finding a job more difficult because of the way firms sometimes treat transfer students.

Forget about the intellectual rigor of the curriculum. You go to law school to get a job- unless maybe you don't need to work for money in which case do what you want.


I love business and numbers. Would like to do either tax or complex litigation. I do not want big law, so i suppose a small boutique specialized firm is my preference, but would prefer Big Law to nothing.

I want to practice in Chicago or the Bay Area, but I'm a career first person. I'd rather work for a better firm in a city I don't like as much (not super keen on NY or DC though) than a less good firm in my favourite city.

Getting 24k/year in a city with slightly higher living costs than Chicago.

You'll have to inform me of whether its a challenge for transfers at T10s to get OCI/job prospects and whether from a job perspective its better to thrive at a T60 (I''m not thrilled about the region its in, but I'll accept it) than deal with the stigma of transferring and possibility of lower grades at a T10.

But if job prospects are equal, and I love the study of law, can't I consider whether I'll enjoy the curriculum at a T10 more? Wouldn't you agree that on average the profs and school curriculum are more interesting/intellectually fulfilling at a T10 than a T60? Losing my scholarship will suck but pretend thats a non issue for now please!

Thanks

RaceJudicata

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:28 am

I hope you find passion "practicing the profession's craft." I just wouldn't - personally - be willing to pay full freight at a T14 in the hopes of finding some academic sanctuary.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby KijiStewart » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:31 am

Fair enough,

But by your own admission nobody in T60 should be confident about job prospects, and since we're essentially confined to our region wouldn't T14 be better then because the degree is more nationally portable OR does the fact of being a transfer take away the benefits of T14 status due to possibility of being denied OCI etc.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby Npret » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:35 am

KijiStewart wrote:
Npret wrote:
KijiStewart wrote:Hi everyone,

Currently a 1L at T60. 1st semester GPA brings me ~top 6% (A in Legal Writing).

I want to work in a medium sized firm. If I do transfer, it would be so I can better enjoy the curriculum of a T10 school more than the better job prospects because I'm confident I can still get OCI at my current school.

Which top 10s do I have a shot at?

What kind of medium size firm? There aren't many. What do you want to do?
What money are you getting from current school?
Where do you want to practice?

Caution: don't be over confident about job prospects ever. Law is a super oversaturated field. The competition is tough. School is its own bubble but you can't just show a transcript and walk into a job.
Transferring might make finding a job more difficult because of the way firms sometimes treat transfer students.

Forget about the intellectual rigor of the curriculum. You go to law school to get a job- unless maybe you don't need to work for money in which case do what you want.


I love business and numbers. Would like to do either tax or complex litigation. I do not want big law, so i suppose a small boutique specialized firm is my preference, but would prefer Big Law to nothing.

I want to practice in Chicago or the Bay Area, but I'm a career first person. I'd rather work for a better firm in a city I don't like as much (not super keen on NY or DC though) than a less good firm in my favourite city.

Getting 24k/year in a city with slightly higher living costs than Chicago.

You'll have to inform me of whether its a challenge for transfers at T10s to get OCI/job prospects and whether from a job perspective its better to thrive at a T60 (I''m not thrilled about the region its in, but I'll accept it) than deal with the stigma of transferring and possibility of lower grades at a T10.

But if job prospects are equal, and I love the study of law, can't I consider whether I'll enjoy the curriculum at a T10 more? Wouldn't you agree that on average the profs and school curriculum are more interesting/intellectually fulfilling at a T10 than a T60? Losing my scholarship will suck but pretend thats a non issue for now please!

Thanks

I don't even understand what you are asking or what job you want. If you want to go deeply into debt because you think a higher ranked school is more intellectually prestigious, go for it. You won't be the first or last person chasing prestige.

You need to find out how transfers are treated and if you can even participate in OCI, some schools have date cutoffs. Same with law review write on. My old firm would consider your old school and not your new one because you had no grades from the new school. Do research into this before you transfer.

I don't know enough about this to advise you. I'm sure others can help you.

RaceJudicata

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:36 am

KijiStewart wrote:Fair enough,

But by your own admission nobody in T60 should be confident about job prospects, and since we're essentially confined to our region wouldn't T14 be better then because the degree is more nationally portable OR does the fact of being a transfer take away the benefits of T14 status due to possibility of being denied OCI etc.


Nobody here has questioned whether the T14 school will have better job prospects than the T60. The T14 will absolutely have better overall job prospects. That, however, wasn't your question. You said in the OP that you didn't care about job prospects but wanted to "better enjoy the curriculum."

Honestly, you only have one semester of grades. Focus on this coming semester - if you don't do well, this is all a moot point.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby UVA2B » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:38 am

KijiStewart wrote:Fair enough,

But by your own admission nobody in T60 should be confident about job prospects, and since we're essentially confined to our region wouldn't T14 be better then because the degree is more nationally portable OR does the fact of being a transfer take away the benefits of T14 status due to possibility of being denied OCI etc.


That's not exactly fair. Does median at T14 put you in a better position than T60(as much as that's a thing) for gainful employment? Absolutely. You're arguably in as good as, if not better, position for the market you're currently in, with the added bonus of possibly breaking into other markets.

But you're still making a serious financial gamble in doing so. Keep in mind that even T14 graduates from secondary markets are competing with you at your T60 in your market for jobs, and your T60 degree will likely pull similar weight to a median T14 graduate.

There is nothing wrong transferring if you want the possibly added flexibility of a T14 degree, but just realize quite a few T14 graduates are actually coming back to the market you're already competitive in with your credentials. That possibility, combined with paying full freight for that privilege, is a big decision. Think long and hard if it's worth it.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby NoDayButToday » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:18 am

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Last edited by NoDayButToday on Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KijiStewart

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby KijiStewart » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:39 pm

Thank you!

And besides Cornell, do the other T14s allow transfers to participate in OCI so long as they are not admitted "too late" and thereby put transfers on an almost equal recruiting footing as the T14 students who started 1l at a T14?

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby RaceJudicata » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:38 pm

KijiStewart wrote:Thank you!

And besides Cornell, do the other T14s allow transfers to participate in OCI so long as they are not admitted "too late" and thereby put transfers on an almost equal recruiting footing as the T14 students who started 1l at a T14?


I think most (all?) do. Its sorta the whole point of transferring. Oh wait, nevermind, academic enrichment also.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby Joscellin » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:46 am

NoDayButToday wrote:Part of the reason I went T40 to T6 was because I wanted a richer academic experience. I've definitely found that. I loved my 1L school, but they didn't have the resources of a T14. Consequently, they offered fewer courses, especially fewer specialized courses. At my current school, there's no end to the classes I want to take, and once you get outside of the sec regs, the corporations, the antitrusts, and so on, into topical seminars and specialized doctrinals (e.g., free speech, law of nonprofit organizations, sexuality and the law, racial justice and the law--all courses I've taken), you find the people who you're talking about. You also have more high profile or well regarded professors in the T14. My profs were awesome at my T40, but the way the profs conduct even doctrinal classes here has been different.

There are plenty of people here for prestige; who just want to go the big law route, and who don't really care about the academic side of their law school experience as long as they get what they need to know and get out with the nice degree and connections. But even if they are a majority, I'm very engaged on campus with law review, extra curriculars, social events, etc., and I haven't encountered that much.


For what it's worth, I've had a similar experience (re: the academic experience). I loved the profs at my olds school and they were excellent overall, but the profs at my new one have consistently blown me away.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby clshopeful » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:16 am

KijiStewart wrote:While the profs at 50-60 range are very good; objectively speaking, I would assume that classes at the T10 level are taught at a more in-depth and intellectually fulfilling level. We sometimes spend hours just going over facts of cases.

Thanks!


Not true in my experience. TTT to T10 transfer. Classes are same. Some professors are "big names" in academia at my T10, but that does NOT translate directly to being a good professor.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby clshopeful » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:21 am

KijiStewart wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
KijiStewart wrote:While the profs at 50-60 range are very good; objectively speaking, I would assume that classes at the T10 level are taught at a more in-depth and intellectually fulfilling level. We sometimes spend hours just going over facts of cases.

Thanks!


Top schools are also far less practical (IMHO). That said, transferring for curriculum purposes made me chuckle.


I also feel that people here don't take a very intellectual approach to their legal education. Most of us here are here because they hope to get $$$ from big law but don't really want to be a lawyer for the sake of practicing the profession's craft. Moreover, many overtly say they hate being in law school and were literally crying when christmas break was done. Sure 1L anywhere can be tough, but I would hope that people at T14s have a more positive outlook, genuinely appreciate the study of law and want to be a lawyer for reasons besides the possibility of bringing home the $$$.


Again, at T14s, especially after 1L and 2L OCI is done, a lot of people do not apply themselves the same. At my T10 (I'm a 2L) there are people who text literally all class, and plently of others not paying attention at all. I think thats one problem with T14s...After OCI and once everyone has an offer, plus the favorable grading (H, HH, P, for example), there is much less incentive to try hard, where at a lower ranked school it may be different.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby zhenders » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:16 am

If your debt at graduation will be even close, then it's absolutely worth it. If you're going from I'll ride to sticker, that's harder.

I do think the curriculum thing is a bit misplaced, but it's not a crazy thought. Also, long-term, the network one can build at a T10 will be significantly broader and deeper than at a T60. That is definitely less immediately tangible, but it is absolutely real; it's not uncommon at all for one's classmates from years past to give you a major leg up or a recommendation for a great job. This is objectively more likely to happen if one's network is a T10, because statistically more people will go into "better" jobs.

You've kicked ass at school; great job. Consider your debt, your goals, and what's important to you. I wouldn't trade my law school experience for pretty much any other school (and I've compared mine to friends at a variety of schools).

That said, debt is fucking real, so be wise.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby CheddarArachnid » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:30 pm

Saying "I seek academic rigor and that is why I transferred" may be a good line for OCI's but unfortunately it does not pan out. I transferred for better jobs, I found the classes at my T14 generally exactly the same as my T1. There were gunners who raised their hands, kids who did not read, professors who were bad and I did just about as good as I did at my T1. I think your bubble about academic rigor needs to be burst. All your professors at your T1 went to these schools and GUESS WHAT all your T14 professors went to these schools too. There is really only differences at the margin. Also get your goals in order before you embark on the path to more debt. Like everyone has said, debt is very real and its way too much to take on for "academic rigor". Regarding jobs, my experience was that it is what you make of it. The T14 brand gets you the screener interviews but the rest is up to you. We had several transfers not get offers because of poor market targeting strategies.

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Re: T60: Thinking of Transferring to T10

Postby KijiStewart » Fri May 12, 2017 9:28 pm

Hey everyone, unfortunately my school is no longer T60 but is now T80 smh.

How does this change my chances at HYS or CCN assuming I stick within the top 5-7% range.



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