Berkeley to S/Y/H? Forum

[thricelawyer9]

Poster believes Cal students are just as smart as Harvard students despite clear evidence that they are not e.g., LSAT scores, GPA, etc. By same logic, GW students are just as smart as Cal students despite clear evidence to the contrary e.g., LSAT, GPA, etc.

And if you say that poster doesn't believe that Cal students are as smart as Harvard students, that just proves my point that Harvard students are smarter students than Cal students.

Harvard students collectively, on average, have slightly higher LSAT/GPAs than Berkeley students do. If you think that's some kind of absolute measure of intelligence, or more importantly, the skills legal employers look for, well, good luck with that. In any case, the Berkeley student who does well enough to transfer to Harvard is clearly not less intelligent than Harvard students (neither is the GW student who pulls it off). What if they didn't transfer? Does the fact that they stay at Berkeley magically mean they're less intelligent than if they get that HLS on their diploma?

If "slightly higher" means 7 points higher, I'm afraid your Mary Poppins reading hasn't served you very well after all. Harvard's 50% LSAT is 173 and Cal's 50% LSAT is 166. Cal's 75% LSAT is 2 points below Harvard's 25% LSAT.

So no, it won't change how smart they actually are. But it will change how smart people think they actually are. You can say it doesn't matter, but it does. For very little downside (maybe they lose a small chance at getting a clerkship-- but I honestly don't think they will) and for probably the same exact cost and job chances etc. plus added boost in academia, business, politics, sense of fulfillment (obviously OP think there is something better about HYS or else they wouldn't have posted this), I would transfer.

[Nekrowizard]

Poster believes Cal students are just as smart as Harvard students despite clear evidence that they are not e.g., LSAT scores, GPA, etc. By same logic, GW students are just as smart as Cal students despite clear evidence to the contrary e.g., LSAT, GPA, etc.

And if you say that poster doesn't believe that Cal students are as smart as Harvard students, that just proves my point that Harvard students are smarter students than Cal students.

Harvard students collectively, on average, have slightly higher LSAT/GPAs than Berkeley students do. If you think that's some kind of absolute measure of intelligence, or more importantly, the skills legal employers look for, well, good luck with that. In any case, the Berkeley student who does well enough to transfer to Harvard is clearly not less intelligent than Harvard students (neither is the GW student who pulls it off). What if they didn't transfer? Does the fact that they stay at Berkeley magically mean they're less intelligent than if they get that HLS on their diploma?

If "slightly higher" means 7 points higher, I'm afraid your Mary Poppins reading hasn't served you very well after all. Harvard's 50% LSAT is 173 and Cal's 50% LSAT is 166. Cal's 75% LSAT is 2 points below Harvard's 25% LSAT.

So no, it won't change how smart they actually are. But it will change how smart people think they actually are. You can say it doesn't matter, but it does. For very little downside (maybe they lose a small chance at getting a clerkship-- but I honestly don't think they will) and for probably the same exact cost and job chances etc. plus added boost in academia, business, politics, sense of fulfillment (obviously OP think there is something better about HYS or else they wouldn't have posted this), I would transfer.

I think there is a significant hit on clerkships. I know several transfers who would likely have had top-tier A3 clerkships who had trouble getting their old professors to do stuff for them, and received little assistance from either school's clerkship office or department or whatever they're called.

[rpupkin]

So no, it won't change how smart they actually are. But it will change how smart people think they actually are. You can say it doesn't matter, but it does. For very little downside (maybe they lose a small chance at getting a clerkship-- but I honestly don't think they will)

What's your basis for this opinion? I think you may have been right five or ten years ago, when most clerkship hiring occurred during 3L year. But now that most feeder clerkship hiring is done after the student has completed two or three semesters, doesn't it seem like transferring would really hurt the applicant? Why do you think otherwise?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Poster believes Cal students are just as smart as Harvard students despite clear evidence that they are not e.g., LSAT scores, GPA, etc. By same logic, GW students are just as smart as Cal students despite clear evidence to the contrary e.g., LSAT, GPA, etc.

And if you say that poster doesn't believe that Cal students are as smart as Harvard students, that just proves my point that Harvard students are smarter students than Cal students.

Harvard students collectively, on average, have slightly higher LSAT/GPAs than Berkeley students do. If you think that's some kind of absolute measure of intelligence, or more importantly, the skills legal employers look for, well, good luck with that. In any case, the Berkeley student who does well enough to transfer to Harvard is clearly not less intelligent than Harvard students (neither is the GW student who pulls it off). What if they didn't transfer? Does the fact that they stay at Berkeley magically mean they're less intelligent than if they get that HLS on their diploma?

If "slightly higher" means 7 points higher, I'm afraid your Mary Poppins reading hasn't served you very well after all. Harvard's 50% LSAT is 173 and Cal's 50% LSAT is 166. Cal's 75% LSAT is 2 points below Harvard's 25% LSAT.

So no, it won't change how smart they actually are. But it will change how smart people think they actually are. You can say it doesn't matter, but it does. For very little downside (maybe they lose a small chance at getting a clerkship-- but I honestly don't think they will) and for probably the same exact cost and job chances etc. plus added boost in academia, business, politics, sense of fulfillment (obviously OP think there is something better about HYS or else they wouldn't have posted this), I would transfer.

That's because Berkeley favors higher GPAs which are much closer to Harvard's.

I don't think you're right about clerkships, and we have no idea if for this OP it will be the exact same cost - after all, Berkeley offers merit aid and HYS don't. I agree with people who say that in some circumstances the transfer makes sense, but I think you're creating an artificially wide gulf between HYS and Berkeley for some reason I don't understand at all - for the people who care about signals of prestige like having HYS on your diploma, having a top rank at Berkeley is also a valuable signal.

(Also, I wasn't an English major, but I'm also not limited enough to consider calling someone an English major an insult, so thank you.)

[thricelawyer9]

Poster believes Cal students are just as smart as Harvard students despite clear evidence that they are not e.g., LSAT scores, GPA, etc. By same logic, GW students are just as smart as Cal students despite clear evidence to the contrary e.g., LSAT, GPA, etc.

And if you say that poster doesn't believe that Cal students are as smart as Harvard students, that just proves my point that Harvard students are smarter students than Cal students.

Harvard students collectively, on average, have slightly higher LSAT/GPAs than Berkeley students do. If you think that's some kind of absolute measure of intelligence, or more importantly, the skills legal employers look for, well, good luck with that. In any case, the Berkeley student who does well enough to transfer to Harvard is clearly not less intelligent than Harvard students (neither is the GW student who pulls it off). What if they didn't transfer? Does the fact that they stay at Berkeley magically mean they're less intelligent than if they get that HLS on their diploma?

If "slightly higher" means 7 points higher, I'm afraid your Mary Poppins reading hasn't served you very well after all. Harvard's 50% LSAT is 173 and Cal's 50% LSAT is 166. Cal's 75% LSAT is 2 points below Harvard's 25% LSAT.

So no, it won't change how smart they actually are. But it will change how smart people think they actually are. You can say it doesn't matter, but it does. For very little downside (maybe they lose a small chance at getting a clerkship-- but I honestly don't think they will) and for probably the same exact cost and job chances etc. plus added boost in academia, business, politics, sense of fulfillment (obviously OP think there is something better about HYS or else they wouldn't have posted this), I would transfer.

That's because Berkeley favors higher GPAs which are much closer to Harvard's.

I don't think you're right about clerkships, and we have no idea if for this OP it will be the exact same cost - after all, Berkeley offers merit aid and HYS don't. I agree with people who say that in some circumstances the transfer makes sense, but I think you're creating an artificially wide gulf between HYS and Berkeley for some reason I don't understand at all - for the people who care about signals of prestige like having HYS on your diploma, having a top rank at Berkeley is also a valuable signal.

(Also, I wasn't an English major, but I'm also not limited enough to consider calling someone an English major an insult, so thank you.)

Nah I'm just messing with you guys. Cal is a good school and Stanford is a good school. I don't think you can go wrong with either.

[thricelawyer9]

For me, I care more about prestige and you can say what you want about that. If I had the opportunity to graduate from Harvard Law School, though, I'd take it.

[rpupkin]

For me, I care more about prestige and you can say what you want about that. If I had the opportunity to graduate from Harvard Law School, though, I'd take it.

So you're saying you value prestige over actual career opportunities? If so, why did you go into law? This profession isn't prestigious, bro.

[thricelawyer9]

For me, I care more about prestige and you can say what you want about that. If I had the opportunity to graduate from Harvard Law School, though, I'd take it.

So you're saying you value prestige over actual career opportunities? If so, why did you go into law? This profession isn't prestigious, bro.

I think we already determined that OP's career opportunities wouldn't be greatly diminished. I think a diminished chance at a prestigious clerkship is outweighed by the other benefits of graduating from HYS e.g., self fulfillment, academia, boost in other fields, alumni networking, etc.

And I think this profession is prestigious. And I think prestige matters in this profession. If prestige didn't matter, why are most of the top top lawyers, SCOTUS justices, and law professors all pretty much from HYS? What's more prestigious than graduating from Harvard Law School or Y/S? Being a neurosurgeon? What exactly?

[thricelawyer9]

That's just my two cents. Either way, OP is going to be perfectly fine and will accomplish anything they want to.

I'm just saying if I were in the same situation, I'd transfer.

[kartelite]

If "slightly higher" means 7 points higher, I'm afraid your Mary Poppins reading hasn't served you very well after all. Harvard's 50% LSAT is 173 and Cal's 50% LSAT is 166. Cal's 75% LSAT is 2 points below Harvard's 25% LSAT.

So no, it won't change how smart they actually are. But it will change how smart people think they actually are. You can say it doesn't matter, but it does. For very little downside (maybe they lose a small chance at getting a clerkship-- but I honestly don't think they will) and for probably the same exact cost and job chances etc. plus added boost in academia, business, politics, sense of fulfillment (obviously OP think there is something better about HYS or else they wouldn't have posted this), I would transfer.

FWIW, pretty sure Berkeley is more selective than Harvard Law if you look at acceptance rate, it just isn't as much of a numbers whore. I'm guessing more HLS admits got dinged at Berkeley than vice versa.

[rpupkin]

I think we already determined that OP's career opportunities wouldn't be greatly diminished. I think a diminished chance at a prestigious clerkship is outweighed by the other benefits of graduating from HYS e.g., self fulfillment, academia, boost in other fields, alumni networking, etc.

Your troll is falling apart—you don't have enough knowledge to keep it going. How do you think academia hiring works, anyway? A feeder clerkship (and, more importantly, a publication record) is way more important to your chances than whether you went to Boalttt or HLS.

And I think this profession is prestigious. And I think prestige matters in this profession. If prestige didn't matter, why are most of the top top lawyers, SCOTUS justices, and law professors all pretty much from HYS?

Yeah, but did they transfer there? SCOTUS clerkships are a great example of what you're talking about. Every year, Boalttt/Michigan/UVA puts a clerk or two on SCOTUS. Would those folks have made it to SCOTUS had they transferred to HYS (which they surely could have) after 1L? Probably not, for the reasons we've been discussing. They would have damaged the "prestige" of their resumes—which you're obviously obsessed with—by transferring. I'm not sure why you can't comprehend this point.

[thricelawyer9]

If "slightly higher" means 7 points higher, I'm afraid your Mary Poppins reading hasn't served you very well after all. Harvard's 50% LSAT is 173 and Cal's 50% LSAT is 166. Cal's 75% LSAT is 2 points below Harvard's 25% LSAT.

So no, it won't change how smart they actually are. But it will change how smart people think they actually are. You can say it doesn't matter, but it does. For very little downside (maybe they lose a small chance at getting a clerkship-- but I honestly don't think they will) and for probably the same exact cost and job chances etc. plus added boost in academia, business, politics, sense of fulfillment (obviously OP think there is something better about HYS or else they wouldn't have posted this), I would transfer.

FWIW, pretty sure Berkeley is more selective than Harvard Law if you look at acceptance rate, it just isn't as much of a numbers whore. I'm guessing more HLS admits got dinged at Berkeley than vice versa.

I highly doubt more HLS students got dinged at Boalt than the other way around.

I think the more likely explanation is that Boalt got more applications from students who thought B would be their reach school, and who would otherwise not apply to HLS because they know they don't have a chance. E.g., someone with a 162 LSAT might apply to Boalt because 162 is the 25% for B, but that same person would never apply to HLS because they know they don't stand a chance. This would make B's acceptance rate lower, but doesn't mean they're more "selective."

[thricelawyer9]

I think we already determined that OP's career opportunities wouldn't be greatly diminished. I think a diminished chance at a prestigious clerkship is outweighed by the other benefits of graduating from HYS e.g., self fulfillment, academia, boost in other fields, alumni networking, etc.

Your troll is falling apart—you don't have enough knowledge to keep it going. How do you think academia hiring works, anyway? A feeder clerkship (and, more importantly, a publication record) is way more important to your chances than whether you went to Boalttt or HLS.

And I think this profession is prestigious. And I think prestige matters in this profession. If prestige didn't matter, why are most of the top top lawyers, SCOTUS justices, and law professors all pretty much from HYS?

Yeah, but did they transfer there? SCOTUS clerkships are a great example of what you're talking about. Every year, Boalttt/Michigan/UVA puts a clerk or two on SCOTUS. Would those folks have made it to SCOTUS had they transferred to HYS (which they surely could have) after 1L? Probably not, for the reasons we've been discussing. They would have damaged the "prestige" of their resumes—which you're obviously obsessed with—by transferring. I'm not sure why you can't comprehend this point.

Well I can tell you this, I sure as hell don't have any professors from B at my law school. All my professors are from YHS, and not all of them have clerkships. So what does that tell ya.

[thricelawyer9]

You guys don't have to agree with my position, and it's pretty clear that most of you don't, but I would transfer.

That's it. That's what I think. Take it or leave it.

[rpupkin]

Well I can tell you this, I sure as hell don't have any professors from B at my law school. All my professors are from YHS, and not all of them have clerkships. So what does that tell ya.

I went to one of HYS and one of my best-known profs graduated form Boalttt. What does that tell you?

Look, dude, no one questions that HYS, overall, gives you more opportunities than the rest of the T14. If you're a 0L and you're choosing between Boalttt and HYS, and if the cost is close to the same, then you should of course go to HYS. But that's not the situation we're talking about. We're talking about someone who is top-of-the-class at Boalttt after one year. That person basically hurts their chances at "prestigious" outcomes by transferring. You don't really have an answer to that point, as best I can tell.

[thricelawyer9]

Well I can tell you this, I sure as hell don't have any professors from B at my law school. All my professors are from YHS, and not all of them have clerkships. So what does that tell ya.

I went to one of HYS and one of my best-known profs graduated form Boalttt. What does that tell you?

Look, dude, no one questions that HYS, overall, gives you more opportunities than the rest of the T14. If you're a 0L and you're choosing between Boalttt and HYS, and if the cost is close to the same, then you should of course go to HYS. But that's not the situation we're talking about. We're talking about someone who is top-of-the-class at Boalttt after one year. That person basically hurts their chances at "prestigious" outcomes by transferring. You don't really have an answer to that point, as best I can tell.

"One" of them, but majority were from HYS, am I right?

No, my rebuttal is that OP would have to have pure shit-for-brains to mess up a prestigious outcome for himself. I still think OP would be able to pull a good clerkship, if that's what they really wanted. Maybe you don't think so, and that's fine.

[rpupkin]

"One" of them, but majority were from HYS, am I right?

No, my rebuttal is that OP would have to have pure shit-for-brains to mess up a prestigious outcome for himself. I still think OP would be able to pull a good clerkship, if that's what they really wanted. Maybe you don't think so, and that's fine.

Yes, most of the profs were from HY, though I doubt many (or any) of them transferred to those schools.

Also, your suggestion that "OP can pull a good clerkship if that's what they really wanted" is mindless. It's not just that you and the other posters ITT have a difference of opinion about this; it's that we've identified systemic factors that disfavor transfers in recent years. And the only thing you've said in response is: "But prestige."

[thricelawyer9]

"One" of them, but majority were from HYS, am I right?

No, my rebuttal is that OP would have to have pure shit-for-brains to mess up a prestigious outcome for himself. I still think OP would be able to pull a good clerkship, if that's what they really wanted. Maybe you don't think so, and that's fine.

Yes, most of the profs were from HY, though I doubt many (or any) of them transferred to those schools.

Also, your suggestion that "OP can pull a good clerkship if that's what they really wanted" is mindless. It's not just that you and the other posters ITT have a difference of opinion about this; it's that we've identified systemic factors that disfavor transfers in recent years. And the only thing you've said in response is: "But prestige."

Well that's a straw man argument if I've ever seen one. I've listed multiple reasons that I think outweigh the diminished chance of clerking.

The only argument against transferring seems to be a diminished chance at clerking, and it's not clear how much his chances will be diminished, or if OP even cares about that. That's a far cry from "identifying systematic factors that disfavor transfers." I don't find it persuasive.

[thricelawyer9]

"One" of them, but majority were from HYS, am I right?

No, my rebuttal is that OP would have to have pure shit-for-brains to mess up a prestigious outcome for himself. I still think OP would be able to pull a good clerkship, if that's what they really wanted. Maybe you don't think so, and that's fine.

Yes, most of the profs were from HY, though I doubt many (or any) of them transferred to those schools.

Also, your suggestion that "OP can pull a good clerkship if that's what they really wanted" is mindless. It's not just that you and the other posters ITT have a difference of opinion about this; it's that we've identified systemic factors that disfavor transfers in recent years. And the only thing you've said in response is: "But prestige."

You think that at Stanford where 30.5% of students get federal clerkships, OP is really going to have a hard time landing a clerkship if that's what they want? One word: doubtful.

[WheninLaw]

I have a couple of friends that were top of their class at Boalt. They are enjoying their SCOTUS clerkships. Who knows what they could have achieved if they transferred!

[A. Nony Mouse]

You guys don't have to agree with my position, and it's pretty clear that most of you don't, but I would transfer.

That's it. That's what I think. Take it or leave it.

That's great and all if that's priority. People here are just explaining why in a vacuum it's a little more nuanced than "PRESTIGE!"

(Also, legal academia is more complicated than just going to HYS. Someone who is at the top of their class at Berkeley and gets a good clerkship is in as good a position to get academia as someone at HYS, since both will have to place articles in highly-ranked law reviews to have any kind of shot.)

[thricelawyer9]

You guys don't have to agree with my position, and it's pretty clear that most of you don't, but I would transfer.

That's it. That's what I think. Take it or leave it.

That's great and all if that's priority. People here are just explaining why in a vacuum it's a little more nuanced than "PRESTIGE!"

(Also, legal academia is more complicated than just going to HYS. Someone who is at the top of their class at Berkeley and gets a good clerkship is in as good a position to get academia as someone at HYS, since both will have to place articles in highly-ranked law reviews to have any kind of shot.)

Never said just about prestige.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Why would you want to transfer.

Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.

Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.

People think lawyers are geniuses? Since when? I have met tons of dumb Harvard grads (I haven't known any S grads tbh) and I guess the Yalies (the law grads anyway) have been impressive, but i'm much more impressed with an engineer who went to Berkeley undergrad than an HYS liberal arts major or law grad....most are too dumb at math to function. Same with most medical doctors honestly. If you think HYS law grads are "geniuses" then you must be a retard yourself.

[thricelawyer9]

Why would you want to transfer.

Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.

Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.

People think lawyers are geniuses? Since when? I have met tons of dumb Harvard grads (I haven't known any S grads tbh) and I guess the Yalies (the law grads anyway) have been impressive, but i'm much more impressed with an engineer who went to Berkeley undergrad than an HYS liberal arts major or law grad....most are too dumb at math to function. Same with most medical doctors honestly. If you think HYS law grads are "geniuses" then you must be a retard yourself.

Can we just ban any douches with the word "biglaw" in their name? Eat worms, bitch.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Why would you want to transfer.

Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.

Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.

People think lawyers are geniuses? Since when? I have met tons of dumb Harvard grads (I haven't known any S grads tbh) and I guess the Yalies (the law grads anyway) have been impressive, but i'm much more impressed with an engineer who went to Berkeley undergrad than an HYS liberal arts major or law grad....most are too dumb at math to function. Same with most medical doctors honestly. If you think HYS law grads are "geniuses" then you must be a retard yourself.

Can we just ban any douches with the word "biglaw" in their name? Eat worms, bitch.

(MAF retard who thinks YHS law grads are "geniuses")

Jesus christ, you liberal arts majors should just shoot yourselves