3.99 at T2

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:44 pm

Check out another thread: Don't End Up Like Me (Regrets Upon Regrets) in Law School Admissions Forum for an interesting perspective.

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rpupkin
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby rpupkin » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:46 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Check out another thread: Don't End Up Like Me (Regrets Upon Regrets) in Law School Admissions Forum for an interesting perspective.

It's interesting, but it doesn't apply to the OP for at least a couple of reasons.

First, OP is top 2% after 1L, and that other poster is top 5% after 2L (and may well have been closer to 10% after 1L). When you're dealing with lower-ranked schools, there's a big difference between very top of the class and top 10%. If OP was just top 10%, I suspect that the advice here would be different.

Second, that other poster goes to school in a rural area hours away from a large city. If, by contrast, you finish top of your class at a T2 in a big city (e.g., Loyola in LA, Hastings in SF, Cardozo in NYC), you're in a significantly stronger position for big law.

WHJTMG178
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby WHJTMG178 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:34 am

Mamba1991 wrote:3.99 GPA for the year at a top 80 school in NY area. Rank is not released yet, but it's somewhere in the top 2%. Full academic scholarship at my current school. Interested in BigLaw in NY. Would you leave for H?


No. You're going to end up in big law either way. No debt is the way to go.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:59 am

Agree that it is not exactly on point. Also agree that attending law school in a rural area, whether at Penn State or Washington & Lee, can cost law students valuable exposure to legal employers.

UpandDown97
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby UpandDown97 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:41 pm

Mamba1991 wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
MurdockLLP wrote:
rpupkin wrote: I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


The difference is that while HLS's provides a tiny percentage of its HLS grads with AUSA and Academia jobs, Cardozo/Brooklyn provides none. Without doubt if either of these are OPs goals, then he would be better off transferring to HLS.

That's not actually true, but let's pretend that it is. Is the difference between "tiny percentage" and "none" worth $120k? That the question you're ignoring.


+1. I think OP should apply and see if they get need based aid. If the difference is down to 60k, then I would think OP should transfer. But as it is, OP wants to do generic NYC big law, which they will almost certainly get at the top of Cardozo/Brooklyn. While it might not be Wachtell or Cravath, it will pay 160k (hopefully 190) and OP's standard of living will be much better


I've already applied to H. My intuition is to apply and absent significant need-based aid, I'll likely stay where I am. I just don't see widening OCI by a few firms carrying 120k of value, although the long-term network at H seems to be the more significant attraction to me. Thanks for all the insight.


Let's take a more long term approach.

Sure, in the short term, better chances at OCI might not be worth 120k. But, do you think that over your life time, a Havard degree will grant you 120,001 in gains you otherwise would not have had? It doesn't even have to be necessarily just income. You could assign a monetary value to experiences and reactions- what's it worth to you to be able to drop the H bomb when picking up a guy/girl at the bar?

I can not imagine how Harvard doesn't gain you 120,001 through the course of your career versus a random T2.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:45 pm

I agree with the above post. Apply to Harvard as a transfer, hope for an acceptance & need based financial aid. Regardless of the aid, a Harvard Law degree is well worth the price of two years COA versus a full tuition scholarship & high class rank at Yeshiva/Cardozo or Brooklyn Law School.

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trebekismyhero
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby trebekismyhero » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:10 pm

If OP wants to work in big law, how does Harvard end up being worth over 120k when they will get it anyways? Obviously if OP wanted academia, federal government, or COA clerkship, Harvard probably would be worth it. But if OP wants to do big law in NYC, getting a good firm job is done with their grades from Cardozo/Brooklyn. From there it is more on OP to do well at the firm and build connections. H would be it a little easier, but I doubt it is worth $120k.

And lol at it helps to pick up a girl/guy. WGAF?

OP can walk away from law school debt free and making 160k. That is the best scenario possible

Blueberrypie
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Blueberrypie » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:47 am

rpupkin wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:More & more varied employers with greater geographical diversity. If OP truly wants to move into only NYC biglaw, then OP needs to determine whether or not all targeted NYC biglaw firms recruit & hire from Cardozo/Brooklyn.

There are NYC biglaw firms who do not hire out of Cardozo/Brooklyn. Do you think WLRK hires form Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, of course, is no. But do you think WLRK hires transfers to HLS who spent their first year at Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, again, is no.

That's the thing: you're looking for the thin slice of law firms who (1) won't hire a student who is at the top of the class at Cardozo/Brooklyn, but (2) will hire that same student if they transfer to HLS. I suspect that very few NYC firms fall into that category. I doubt that catching those firms (if they even exist) into your net is worth $120K of debt.



Sorry, I just have a slight point to make. As a New Yorker who has worked in law firms, I know for a fact that WLRK has lawyers and has hired from Brooklyn. Cardozo I am not too sure, but I do know they currently have Brooklyn Law attorneys.

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Nebby
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Nebby » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:09 am

Blueberrypie wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:More & more varied employers with greater geographical diversity. If OP truly wants to move into only NYC biglaw, then OP needs to determine whether or not all targeted NYC biglaw firms recruit & hire from Cardozo/Brooklyn.

There are NYC biglaw firms who do not hire out of Cardozo/Brooklyn. Do you think WLRK hires form Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, of course, is no. But do you think WLRK hires transfers to HLS who spent their first year at Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, again, is no.

That's the thing: you're looking for the thin slice of law firms who (1) won't hire a student who is at the top of the class at Cardozo/Brooklyn, but (2) will hire that same student if they transfer to HLS. I suspect that very few NYC firms fall into that category. I doubt that catching those firms (if they even exist) into your net is worth $120K of debt.



Sorry, I just have a slight point to make. As a New Yorker who has worked in law firms, I know for a fact that WLRK has lawyers and has hired from Brooklyn. Cardozo I am not too sure, but I do know they currently have Brooklyn Law attorneys.

They're likely laterals or have been there a long time. WLRK does not even attend Brooklyn or Cardozo OCI.

Blueberrypie
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Blueberrypie » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:37 am

Nebby wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:More & more varied employers with greater geographical diversity. If OP truly wants to move into only NYC biglaw, then OP needs to determine whether or not all targeted NYC biglaw firms recruit & hire from Cardozo/Brooklyn.

There are NYC biglaw firms who do not hire out of Cardozo/Brooklyn. Do you think WLRK hires form Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, of course, is no. But do you think WLRK hires transfers to HLS who spent their first year at Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, again, is no.

That's the thing: you're looking for the thin slice of law firms who (1) won't hire a student who is at the top of the class at Cardozo/Brooklyn, but (2) will hire that same student if they transfer to HLS. I suspect that very few NYC firms fall into that category. I doubt that catching those firms (if they even exist) into your net is worth $120K of debt.



Sorry, I just have a slight point to make. As a New Yorker who has worked in law firms, I know for a fact that WLRK has lawyers and has hired from Brooklyn. Cardozo I am not too sure, but I do know they currently have Brooklyn Law attorneys.

They're likely laterals or have been there a long time. WLRK does not even attend Brooklyn or Cardozo OCI.


One I know hasn't been there long. There aren't many, but I know they are not adverse to hiring from there. At the end, its all about who you know. I've seen people land top law jobs that one thinks should belong to HYS students or more regionally Columbia and NYU students, but are given to St. Johns and even NYLS. Network trumps everything. This is a life lesson I adhere too, because it works. The good thing is that these top schools provide you with awesome network opportunities, however I know these regional nyc T2 LS (Brooklyn, I can only speak of as I am often in the area) know how to make moves and use of their area to find opportunities and hopefully suck them up. Also for OP, I don't remember reading if he had revealed his institution, Brooklyn gives money away like napkins. There scholarships are awesome and they have several opportunities to tac down your bill. I never heard of some of the things. Thy also cut their tuition in like half. If I would have known better, I would have made that school a strong contender in my list.

I think OP should stay put without any additional information. I'd rather a T2 school where I have no debt and a basically guaranteed chance at BigLaw. I never really heard any established lawyer (from Harvard - NYLS) tell me the law school they graduated from helped them get their 2nd 3rd or even 4th position. It matters in the short run, but not the long run, for the most part. You go to the TLS for the networking, the NAME and the job prospects, but if you are already in nyc and at Brooklyn at least, your network is actually good, the name is established in NYC (a bigger plus if that is where you want to practice), you have no debt, and at the top of the class, so your job prospects are awesome... youropportunity is actually good.

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Nebby
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Nebby » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:42 am

Blueberrypie wrote:I think OP should stay put without any additional information. I'd rather a T2 school where I have no debt and a basically guaranteed chance at BigLaw. I never really heard any established lawyer (from Harvard - NYLS) tell me the law school they graduated from helped them get their 2nd 3rd or even 4th position. It matters in the short run, but not the long run, for the most part. You go to the TLS for the networking, the NAME and the job prospects, but if you are already in nyc and at Brooklyn at least, your network is actually good, the name is established in NYC (a bigger plus if that is where you want to practice), you have no debt, and at the top of the class, so your job prospects are awesome... youropportunity is actually good.

I disagree with this a lot. There are many benefits for making the jump. Better chances at landing BigLaw, better network, better coursework, better long-term benefits that are the result of all of the short-term benefits building up over time.

OP. I think the only issue here is that you should go to CLS if you want NY BigLaw.

Blueberrypie
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Blueberrypie » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:00 am

Nebby wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:I think OP should stay put without any additional information. I'd rather a T2 school where I have no debt and a basically guaranteed chance at BigLaw. I never really heard any established lawyer (from Harvard - NYLS) tell me the law school they graduated from helped them get their 2nd 3rd or even 4th position. It matters in the short run, but not the long run, for the most part. You go to the TLS for the networking, the NAME and the job prospects, but if you are already in nyc and at Brooklyn at least, your network is actually good, the name is established in NYC (a bigger plus if that is where you want to practice), you have no debt, and at the top of the class, so your job prospects are awesome... youropportunity is actually good.

I disagree with this a lot. There are many benefits for making the jump. Better chances at landing BigLaw, better network, better coursework, better long-term benefits that are the result of all of the short-term benefits building up over time.

OP. I think the only issue here is that you should go to CLS if you want NY BigLaw.



Yea I can't see it. I can only speak for where I've worked, being in NYC and experience. I at least know for NYC and you don't come out of Columbia or NYU you can still land a great job, something I did not agree with before and I know something TLS doesn't agree with, but hey you live and learn. I've recently heard about a AUSA out of Brooklyn which was like wtf?! This person also isn't low on the totem pool and he graduated when the market was very bad. I know grads from NYLS, which TLS says is a no-no and actually most people say its a no-no land jobs at huge firms, but I get it the point isn't that its not possible, but the likelihood. So looking at someone, in this particular instance, I don't think this person has anything to worry about, if he decides to stay or doesn't get an offer at Columbia. I do like that when you attend a top school, you can afford to be laid back or have cushion if you don't do well, but not everyone is going to get into those top schools regardless of their status and grades. So, if he doesn't get in or he doesn't decide to transfer, is he at a loss, nope not with his class rank and gpa.

I would try for Columbia because you are sure to get a great job, but by no means is your situation in need of help. I say regardless this person is in a good place.


Lastly, I have never heard a graduate from law school well into their career mention their law school or even discuss using that as a pull to advance there career. Their current employment and accomplishments take precedent over their law school. I never met one that pulled the Harvard card. They feel they don't need to and don't even find it relevant in ,ost situations concerning them.

Mamba1991
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Mamba1991 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:24 pm

Nebby wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:I think OP should stay put without any additional information. I'd rather a T2 school where I have no debt and a basically guaranteed chance at BigLaw. I never really heard any established lawyer (from Harvard - NYLS) tell me the law school they graduated from helped them get their 2nd 3rd or even 4th position. It matters in the short run, but not the long run, for the most part. You go to the TLS for the networking, the NAME and the job prospects, but if you are already in nyc and at Brooklyn at least, your network is actually good, the name is established in NYC (a bigger plus if that is where you want to practice), you have no debt, and at the top of the class, so your job prospects are awesome... youropportunity is actually good.

I disagree with this a lot. There are many benefits for making the jump. Better chances at landing BigLaw, better network, better coursework, better long-term benefits that are the result of all of the short-term benefits building up over time.

OP. I think the only issue here is that you should go to CLS if you want NY BigLaw.


As an update, I'm just applying to H and I'm still on the fence as to whether I would leave my school. I feel very good about BigLaw from where I'm at and have spoken to a couple of firms already pre-OCI. As far CLS, the COL is simply too high for me. H is a better choice for personal reasons (COL would be zero) and their prestige is second to none. So that's where I'm at. I'm happy with my scholarship, grades, moot court, and possibly journal (haven't heard back yet), and would only forego those things for a school like H, and still not sure if I would do that. I can't thank you guys enough for the great insight. Best of luck to everyone.

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chuckbass
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby chuckbass » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:26 pm

Sounds like you're doing this right. Good luck!

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rpupkin
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby rpupkin » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:36 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:Sounds like you're doing this right. Good luck!

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BVest
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby BVest » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:28 pm

Blueberrypie wrote:[some stuff]


Aren't you a 0L?

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Nebby
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Nebby » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:11 am

BVest wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:[some stuff]


Aren't you a 0L?

Solid find.

Blueberrypie
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Blueberrypie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:40 pm

Nebby wrote:
BVest wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:[some stuff]


Aren't you a 0L?

Solid find.



Yep, is obvious I over stepped my bounds. Thanks for the heads up! :)




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