3.99 at T2

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Mamba1991
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3.99 at T2

Postby Mamba1991 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:01 am

3.99 GPA for the year at a top 80 school in NY area. Rank is not released yet, but it's somewhere in the top 2%. Full academic scholarship at my current school. Interested in BigLaw in NY. Would you leave for H?

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:18 am

congrats you've done very well
I would apply widely to transfer
It would help if you name the actual school bc some T2 have much better big law placement than others

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MurdockLLP
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby MurdockLLP » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:26 am

If Biglaw is your goal, then absolutely transfer. NY T2s all place about 10%.

Mamba1991
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Mamba1991 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:42 am

For argument's sake, let's assume that the shot at NY biglaw was the same at H and at my current school (it's not). But let's assume my first job will be the same in either situation. What is the value of H after the first job and is it > 2 years of sticker price?

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MurdockLLP
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby MurdockLLP » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:48 am

What are your long term goals? If you are on full scholarship then you don't really need BigLaw since your debt should be minimal. The only reason you'd want to pursue Biglaw then is for prestige. If prestige is your ultimate goal, then you probably would be better suited at H.

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pancakes3
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby pancakes3 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:51 am

MurdockLLP wrote:If Biglaw is your goal, then absolutely transfer. NY T2s all place about 10%.


... and bro is top 2% going into OCI. He can definitely get biglaw.

Also biglaw isn't really about prestige. It's about that 160k 190k paycheck. People without debt can appreciate that kind of pay too.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:00 am

Big law is not all about prestige. Someone who wants to work in litigation has few options that are better than starting in nyc big law.

OP I was in a similar situation (T1 that places about 10% big law). I didn't apply to transfer bc of the $ and also personal reasons and I haven't regretted it. You will definitely get into some t14s. I can see arguments both ways but really think through the debt and how you will pay it off.

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MurdockLLP
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby MurdockLLP » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:00 am

pancakes3 wrote:
MurdockLLP wrote:If Biglaw is your goal, then absolutely transfer. NY T2s all place about 10%.


... and bro is top 2% going into OCI. He can definitely get biglaw.

Also biglaw isn't really about prestige. It's about that 160k 190k paycheck. People without debt can appreciate that kind of pay too.


The lifespan of a Biglaw associate is extremely limited. OP is worried about what added benefits H will provide outside of a position he is already a candidate for. If OP wants AUSA or Academia, H provides great benefits. If OP wants Midlaw long term, then he should stay.

Mamba1991
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Mamba1991 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:02 am

pancakes3 wrote:
MurdockLLP wrote:If Biglaw is your goal, then absolutely transfer. NY T2s all place about 10%.


... and bro is top 2% going into OCI. He can definitely get biglaw.

Also biglaw isn't really about prestige. It's about that 160k 190k paycheck. People without debt can appreciate that kind of pay too.



Both of you make good points. Sure, prestige is important, but not just for the 'name' or the money. BigLaw would allow me to work on the most sophisticated and interesting matters at the highest level of the field and provide me with great exit options when I'm tired of it. I'm not sure what my long-term goals are as far as my second or third job, but I know BigLaw can give me a good shot at whatever it is I become interested in. That being said, the prestige of my degree matters to me insofar as it opens doors down the road. Beyond that, no debt is more important. Thanks guys.

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ndirish2010
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:37 pm

Transfer, so long as you can get at least CLS or NYU.

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rpupkin
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:42 pm

Mamba1991 wrote:3.99 GPA for the year at a top 80 school in NY area. Rank is not released yet, but it's somewhere in the top 2%. Full academic scholarship at my current school. Interested in BigLaw in NY. Would you leave for H?

I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.

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ndirish2010
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:49 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Mamba1991 wrote:3.99 GPA for the year at a top 80 school in NY area. Rank is not released yet, but it's somewhere in the top 2%. Full academic scholarship at my current school. Interested in BigLaw in NY. Would you leave for H?

I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


It seems there's still a risk of not getting biglaw even at the very top of the class at Cardozo. Maybe I'm wrong about that, and OP is basically guaranteed biglaw, in which case staying might make a lot more sense.

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rpupkin
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:53 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Mamba1991 wrote:3.99 GPA for the year at a top 80 school in NY area. Rank is not released yet, but it's somewhere in the top 2%. Full academic scholarship at my current school. Interested in BigLaw in NY. Would you leave for H?

I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


It seems there's still a risk of not getting biglaw even at the very top of the class at Cardozo. Maybe I'm wrong about that, and OP is basically guaranteed biglaw, in which case staying might make a lot more sense.

I suppose there is, but it's like saying "there's still a risk of not betting big law even if you're top 25% at NYU." It's theoretically possible that you'll strike out, but you're very likely fine so long as you're not extremely awkward.

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ndirish2010
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:53 pm

rpupkin wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Mamba1991 wrote:3.99 GPA for the year at a top 80 school in NY area. Rank is not released yet, but it's somewhere in the top 2%. Full academic scholarship at my current school. Interested in BigLaw in NY. Would you leave for H?

I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


It seems there's still a risk of not getting biglaw even at the very top of the class at Cardozo. Maybe I'm wrong about that, and OP is basically guaranteed biglaw, in which case staying might make a lot more sense.

I suppose there is, but it's like saying "there's still a risk in not betting big law even if you're top 25% at NYU." It's theoretically possible that you'll strike out, but you're very likely fine so long as you're not extremely awkward.


Okay, yeah, I see your point.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:40 pm

OP: Apply to Harvard as a transfer since even the top of the class at Cardozo & Brooklyn will not have the same opportunities as median or even below median at Harvard. Also, hopefully you're poor & can qualify for significant need based aid from Harvard.

In my view, the real issue is whether or not Columbia would be worth sacrificing your final two years of tuition free law school.

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rpupkin
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:54 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Apply to Harvard as a transfer since even the top of the class at Cardozo & Brooklyn will not have the same opportunities as median or even below median at Harvard. Also, hopefully you're poor & can qualify for significant need based aid from Harvard.

Obviously this question looks different if OP qualifies for significant need-based aid from HLS. But assuming that OP has to pay sticker, please explain the difference in opportunities and why that difference is worth $120K.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:00 pm

More & more varied employers with greater geographical diversity. If OP truly wants to move into only NYC biglaw, then OP needs to determine whether or not all targeted NYC biglaw firms recruit & hire from Cardozo/Brooklyn.

Also, OP needs to examine the plight of no-offered rising 3Ls at each school.

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rpupkin
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:08 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:More & more varied employers with greater geographical diversity. If OP truly wants to move into only NYC biglaw, then OP needs to determine whether or not all targeted NYC biglaw firms recruit & hire from Cardozo/Brooklyn.

There are NYC biglaw firms who do not hire out of Cardozo/Brooklyn. Do you think WLRK hires form Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, of course, is no. But do you think WLRK hires transfers to HLS who spent their first year at Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, again, is no.

That's the thing: you're looking for the thin slice of law firms who (1) won't hire a student who is at the top of the class at Cardozo/Brooklyn, but (2) will hire that same student if they transfer to HLS. I suspect that very few NYC firms fall into that category. I doubt that catching those firms (if they even exist) into your net is worth $120K of debt.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:12 pm

Maybe. It has been widely shared that Columbia transfers do extremely well at OCI. Athough I do not know for certain, I suspect that more than one NYC biglaw firm recruits at Harvard but not from Cardozo or Brooklyn. Especially so with Columbia, NYU & Fordham in town & Penn nearby. Yale might get some action too.

OP is in the best position to find out which biglaw NYC firms not only pay token recruiting visits, but also hire each year from OP's current school.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:50 pm

OP: Although either course of action has some risk--debt if you transfer to Harvard or Columbia, or a debt-free law degree but disappointing job offers if you remain at Cardozo/Brooklyn-- I would definitely apply as a transfer to Harvard & Columbia since you're targeting NYC biglaw. If you qualify for decent or significant financial aid from Harvard, then the decision is easy. If not, then you need to really examine your prospects at your current school. Columbia is the real issue. Although I have little doubt that they exist, I've yet to read of a disappointed transfer student at Columbia Law School.

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MurdockLLP
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby MurdockLLP » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:26 pm

rpupkin wrote: I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


The difference is that while HLS's provides a tiny percentage of its HLS grads with AUSA and Academia jobs, Cardozo/Brooklyn provides none. Without doubt if either of these are OPs goals, then he would be better off transferring to HLS.

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rpupkin
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:08 pm

MurdockLLP wrote:
rpupkin wrote: I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


The difference is that while HLS's provides a tiny percentage of its HLS grads with AUSA and Academia jobs, Cardozo/Brooklyn provides none. Without doubt if either of these are OPs goals, then he would be better off transferring to HLS.

That's not actually true, but let's pretend that it is. Is the difference between "tiny percentage" and "none" worth $120k? That the question you're ignoring.

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trebekismyhero
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby trebekismyhero » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:58 pm

rpupkin wrote:
MurdockLLP wrote:
rpupkin wrote: I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


The difference is that while HLS's provides a tiny percentage of its HLS grads with AUSA and Academia jobs, Cardozo/Brooklyn provides none. Without doubt if either of these are OPs goals, then he would be better off transferring to HLS.

That's not actually true, but let's pretend that it is. Is the difference between "tiny percentage" and "none" worth $120k? That the question you're ignoring.


+1. I think OP should apply and see if they get need based aid. If the difference is down to 60k, then I would think OP should transfer. But as it is, OP wants to do generic NYC big law, which they will almost certainly get at the top of Cardozo/Brooklyn. While it might not be Wachtell or Cravath, it will pay 160k (hopefully 190) and OP's standard of living will be much better

Mamba1991
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby Mamba1991 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:51 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
MurdockLLP wrote:
rpupkin wrote: I think the folks saying "transfer" ITT need to do a better job of explaining why OP should take on an additional $120K of debt when his goal is big law in NY. I mean, lol@ "HLS gives you a better chance at academia or AUSA." Only a tiny percentage of HLS grads actually end up in those positions.


The difference is that while HLS's provides a tiny percentage of its HLS grads with AUSA and Academia jobs, Cardozo/Brooklyn provides none. Without doubt if either of these are OPs goals, then he would be better off transferring to HLS.

That's not actually true, but let's pretend that it is. Is the difference between "tiny percentage" and "none" worth $120k? That the question you're ignoring.


+1. I think OP should apply and see if they get need based aid. If the difference is down to 60k, then I would think OP should transfer. But as it is, OP wants to do generic NYC big law, which they will almost certainly get at the top of Cardozo/Brooklyn. While it might not be Wachtell or Cravath, it will pay 160k (hopefully 190) and OP's standard of living will be much better


I've already applied to H. My intuition is to apply and absent significant need-based aid, I'll likely stay where I am. I just don't see widening OCI by a few firms carrying 120k of value, although the long-term network at H seems to be the more significant attraction to me. Thanks for all the insight.

riku33090
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Re: 3.99 at T2

Postby riku33090 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:38 pm

rpupkin wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:More & more varied employers with greater geographical diversity. If OP truly wants to move into only NYC biglaw, then OP needs to determine whether or not all targeted NYC biglaw firms recruit & hire from Cardozo/Brooklyn.

There are NYC biglaw firms who do not hire out of Cardozo/Brooklyn. Do you think WLRK hires form Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, of course, is no. But do you think WLRK hires transfers to HLS who spent their first year at Cardozo/Brooklyn? The answer, again, is no.

That's the thing: you're looking for the thin slice of law firms who (1) won't hire a student who is at the top of the class at Cardozo/Brooklyn, but (2) will hire that same student if they transfer to HLS. I suspect that very few NYC firms fall into that category. I doubt that catching those firms (if they even exist) into your net is worth $120K of debt.


LOL there are definitely firms that don't hire from Brooklyn and Cardozo, but there are A LOT of other firms that do. A lot of V50-v80 firms hire students from T2 and TTT. I know Reed Smith hires a bunch of St. John and NYLS.




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