T2 TX, Top 5%

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Anonymous User
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T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:03 pm

Right state wrong market. (UH/SMU/BU)

Have no idea what I should do, Law Review and other accolades make it very tempting to stay (note: so little $ from current school it might as well be none) but do not want to live in this particular market (city) long-term. Would ideally like to live in TX long-term but am just not overly happy with where I am now. The issue is with my standing its almost a lock for biglaw in my school's market, which of course I would take job over no job.

Already applied and admitted after 1st semester: UTexas (theoretically), GULC.

Just curious if its worth throwing some apps in the other T14 range (if its even within the realm of possibility) if that will significantly help me get to one of the bigger cities/improve employment chances. Really the question is: is it worth leaving TX (assuming its possible) for two years in order to come back to the part of TX I'd ideally like to live in long-term.

Thanks all.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:22 pm

It would be more helpful if you identified your current law school & your targeted biglaw market within Texas. Otherwise, research firm profiles & bios to see if your current law school places top performers with those firms. Then try to contact a member of that law firm who graduated from your law school to ask advice.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:24 pm

Without more, it's between UTexas & your current law school with a top 5% class rank & law review. Can you write-on at Texas as a transfer ?

P.S. If at Baylor, were you required to write-on to law review or was your selection based simply on your grades ? Important because you may not be a strong enough writer to write-on as a transfer if you just graded on to law review. The combination of top 5% class rank plus law review should get you biglaw interviews with both Dallas & Houston firms.

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BVest
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby BVest » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:31 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Can you write-on at Texas as a transfer ?


Theoretically yes, although TLR (primary journal) has yet to take a single transfer through the transfer write-on competition (which is entering its third year this summer). So de facto, it is just a secondary journal write-on until TLR proves otherwise.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:38 pm

OP: When looking over firm profiles, note the law schools of the most recent hires, then apply as a transfer student to those law schools.

lawman84
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby lawman84 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Right state wrong market. (UH/SMU/BU)

Have no idea what I should do, Law Review and other accolades make it very tempting to stay (note: so little $ from current school it might as well be none) but do not want to live in this particular market (city) long-term. Would ideally like to live in TX long-term but am just not overly happy with where I am now. The issue is with my standing its almost a lock for biglaw in my school's market, which of course I would take job over no job.

Already applied and admitted after 1st semester: UTexas (theoretically), GULC.

Just curious if its worth throwing some apps in the other T14 range (if its even within the realm of possibility) if that will significantly help me get to one of the bigger cities/improve employment chances. Really the question is: is it worth leaving TX (assuming its possible) for two years in order to come back to the part of TX I'd ideally like to live in long-term.

Thanks all.


If you're coming back to Texas, it probably isn't worth leaving Texas. But if you're getting next to nothing and it's going to cost somewhat similarly to go to University of Texas, I'd throw an application in there if it places well in the areas you want to practice in (which is likely).

Like CanadianWolf said, it would help if you can get on law review, though.

While you'll almost definitely get into some impressive top 14s with your rank, I'm assuming (could be wrong) that you'll be paying a lot more there (assuming you qualify for in-state tuition at Texas) and it really isn't beneficial if you're staying in Texas. Especially in comparison to UT.

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BVest
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby BVest » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:47 pm

OP, Top 5% at any of those schools should give you a very good shot at biglaw in either Dallas or Houston, regardless of where you are currently. I don't see UT as being a great benefit to you. As far as other schools, with those numbers, I'd throw apps at HCCN. Anything else probably isn't worth leaving Texas for (and in the end, you may decide that even HCCN aren't worth leaving Texas for, but give yourself that option).

Meanwhile, if you're staying at SMU and want Houston, hammer the crap out of the Houston interview program as well as mass-mailing any and every firm that doesn't participate. If you're staying at UH or Baylor start mass-mailing whatever city you're targeting.

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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:02 pm

You can assume its either UHouston wanting Dallas or SMU wanting Houston. I do not think I would make the jump to UTexas (which is a drastic shift from when I was applying to school in the first place), there does not seem to be a lot of upside potential, though the cost would be relatively the same, and I have heard (second hand) transfers kinda get the shaft when it comes to OCI for whatever reason.

I have just gotten a lot of conflicting info from professors (some who have said leave and never look back vs. just stay and everything will work itself out), the career service people who say leaving would be the worst decision in the history of mankind (however, I do not quite trust them on this particular issue), and just family and friends who really don't understand how the game is really played and just saying try to go to the best (see most prestigious) school you can.

I have swung so far back and forth on this it is getting to be a bit ridiculous.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and time.

timmyd
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby timmyd » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:59 pm

The students that have trouble at UT oci, from what I've seen, come from ttt schools. Even then, I know of one that got V20. Thats beside the point, however, because thats not your situation. If I were you I would blanket the t14/UT and just see what happens. I don't think you're gaining much by going anywhere outside of t6, but you might fall in love with one of the schools. To sum up I think you would have no problem at UT oci, but I also don't think you're going to have much trouble at your current school. With respect to t14, you'll get into a few and it could be worth it depending on whether your circumstances ever change. congrats on a great 1l year.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:13 pm

Try Harvard. Bonus if you qualify for need based financial aid. Michigan, Duke & Georgetown (GT also offers need based financial aid).

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BVest
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby BVest » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:21 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Try Harvard. Bonus if you qualify for need based financial aid. Michigan, Duke & Georgetown (GT also offers need based financial aid).


There is definitely no reason to try Georgetown. Even if they offer aid, it won't be what UT could offer and it won't give you any more benefit than UT or not transferring would. Michigan and Duke are also questionable. As timmyd said, you're not gaining much anywhere outside T6, otherwise you're in a good spot.

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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:28 pm

I think that OP has already applied to Georgetown. Duke does place in Texas as does Michigan. Additionally, OP has indicated above that he doesn't want UT.
As I wrote above, OP needs to look into firm profiles & resumes in his target city & apply accordingly.

P.S. OP is unwilling to share his current school & his desired location. Garbage in, garbage out.

timmyd
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby timmyd » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:36 pm

A perusal of the firms in Houston, Dallas, and Austin will reveal a lot of t6, UT, top of class SMU/UH/BU and a smaller amount of Duke, Virginia for the most part. At the non Texas firms that happen to have locations in Texas there tend to be more other t14.

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stego
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby stego » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:44 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. OP is unwilling to share his current school & his desired location. Garbage in, garbage out.


OP did say it's either UH wanting Dallas or SMU wanting Houston. That narrows it down. I don't understand though why people don't share more specifics when they're already posting anonymously.

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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby BasilHallward » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:46 pm

Why no Texas?? We don't know your school or target market, so advice will be scatter shot. UT places well in all three markets. I've perused most big firms in Dallas and UT rules and SMU top 20-25% does well. Houston is the same with UH getting dibs after UT. Austin is all UT. Duke, Harvard, and Vanderbilt place awesome in Texas.

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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:51 pm

I think OP would like to know if the top of the class at SMU can place well in Houston, and how does the top of the class at UHouston place in Dallas biglaw firms.

Without more details, it seems that top 5% & law review should be enough for one from either law school to place well in either city. But OP has received conflicting advice from a law professor or two at his current law school.

Based on OP's posts in this thread, I'm not convinced that he is absolutely determined to remain in Texas. It seems clear that he doesn't like his current location.

OP certainly would be offered admission to several T-14 law schools as a transfer.

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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:23 pm

I may not have been clear above, let me just clear a few things up.

The target market is either Dallas or Houston with the current school being in the opposite market.

The reason for not giving any more information/being vague is due to the fact that when discussing this with school personnel last semester it did not go over well so, though I will admit it may be paranoid, would prefer not to be any more specific than I have been. As far as that complicating any responses I understand that and apologize.

I have already been accepted to UTexas and GULC and have not applied anywhere else at this point (didn't feel like sending apps out and possibly finding out I had moved out of the top 5%).

In response to timmyd - I have gotten no concrete information from anyone on transfers at OCI at UT. I have heard that its the tier 3 schools that have trouble but have also heard that people from UH/SMU get looked over. The career service folks at UT did not seem to paint a rosy picture when I spoke to them about it. Of course I view all of this skeptically but without having any concrete information its almost seems like transferring to UT would be a coin-flip at OCI and thats too risky.

In response to canadianwolf - Texas is the goal. I would rather be anywhere in TX (including my current city) with a job than say in NY or CA. I may have used language that was a bit too strong in describing my current situation, apologies.

I have looked through many, many firm profiles - the problem is that generally people have self-selected the market when the go to school at either UH/SMU. It seems to be very rare that someone wants to head to the other market which makes firm profiles very hard to glean any information off of.

I guess the real debate (sans UTexas for the sake of discussion) is it worth transferring to a T6 (assuming admission for the moment) in order to try to increase options in TX. A lot of the T6 is not represented super well in TX firms but I have a feeling that due to self-selection more than anything else. FWIW I did think about Duke but kinda felt that may not be worth given the cost.

I truly appreciate the discussion and input, thank you all for your time.

lawman84
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby lawman84 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I may not have been clear above, let me just clear a few things up.

The target market is either Dallas or Houston with the current school being in the opposite market.

The reason for not giving any more information/being vague is due to the fact that when discussing this with school personnel last semester it did not go over well so, though I will admit it may be paranoid, would prefer not to be any more specific than I have been. As far as that complicating any responses I understand that and apologize.

I have already been accepted to UTexas and GULC and have not applied anywhere else at this point (didn't feel like sending apps out and possibly finding out I had moved out of the top 5%).

In response to timmyd - I have gotten no concrete information from anyone on transfers at OCI at UT. I have heard that its the tier 3 schools that have trouble but have also heard that people from UH/SMU get looked over. The career service folks at UT did not seem to paint a rosy picture when I spoke to them about it. Of course I view all of this skeptically but without having any concrete information its almost seems like transferring to UT would be a coin-flip at OCI and thats too risky.

In response to canadianwolf - Texas is the goal. I would rather be anywhere in TX (including my current city) with a job than say in NY or CA. I may have used language that was a bit too strong in describing my current situation, apologies.

I have looked through many, many firm profiles - the problem is that generally people have self-selected the market when the go to school at either UH/SMU. It seems to be very rare that someone wants to head to the other market which makes firm profiles very hard to glean any information off of.

I guess the real debate (sans UTexas for the sake of discussion) is it worth transferring to a T6 (assuming admission for the moment) in order to try to increase options in TX. A lot of the T6 is not represented super well in TX firms but I have a feeling that due to self-selection more than anything else. FWIW I did think about Duke but kinda felt that may not be worth given the cost.

I truly appreciate the discussion and input, thank you all for your time.


That's disappointing to hear. My school has been very cooperative with me as I explore my options. I figured it would be mainly TTTT schools that would give their students problems if any.

If you're not interested in UT, I'd say that staying where you are is probably the best option. Again, I don't know what you're paying but I would have to think that it'll cost a lot more for a T6 school than it does for you now. But a T6 school might help with big law. Especially a school like Harvard.(but unless you're around the top of the top 5%, Harvard might be out of your reach...one or more of CCN is likely within your reach, though)

Issue is that you want to remain in Texas. So is it worth paying that much more when you will likely have a solid shot at big law where you are? Are you happy at your school? What's motivating your interest in transferring?(just looking for a better shot at big law and getting out of the market or is there more?)

You wanting to stay in the region makes the connections you make at law school and the networking opportunities there that much more valuable. If you thought you might practice somewhere else, it would be easy to advise you to transfer. But with you wanting to practice in Texas, I think you're most likely better off where you are. But it's a choice that you have to make. Some people will probably tell you that you should transfer.

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BVest
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby BVest » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:47 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Duke does place in Texas as does Michigan


Yeah, but they're not going to improve his position from where he currently stands. (Also Duke matriculates only like 8-10 transfers a year).

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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:41 am

I agree that OP is unlikely to improve his current position for placement in Texas biglaw, but OP seems unhappy where he is, or, at the very least, confused & disheartened. If interested in having more options outside of Texas without harming Texas chances, several T-14 law schools offer that flexibility. Also, I think that OP has a realistic chance at Harvard which should improve job options everywhere.

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BasilHallward
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby BasilHallward » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:You can assume its either UHouston wanting Dallas or SMU wanting Houston. I do not think I would make the jump to UTexas (which is a drastic shift from when I was applying to school in the first place), there does not seem to be a lot of upside potential, though the cost would be relatively the same, and I have heard (second hand) transfers kinda get the shaft when it comes to OCI for whatever reason.



I don't understand this reasoning. A drastic shift?? Do you want to stay in Texas or not? That is the question. Your situation at SMU/UH is cush.

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ggocat
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby ggocat » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:19 am

First, I'd approach SMU/UH with your UT acceptance and see if they will give you a (better) scholarship. If no, I'd approach UT and see if they will match your current tuition at SMU/UH.

Unless you're getting a significant discount at SMU/UH, I think UT is the better option for TX biglaw. Flagship law review and top grades are really only important if you want to clerk. If you transfer to UT, you'll probably have a greater shot at an SA with a big firm, just looking at the raw numbers. If you manager to stay in the top half of the class 2L year and don't royally screw up your SA, you should get an offer.

I think this would be somewhat of a different situation if you wanted to stay in your city. It would be more difficult to explain to employers why you left Dallas/Houston but want to return. It's easier if you bail for neutral territory (Austin).

I think you are also competitive for higher ranked schools, but don't see the need if your goal is biglaw.

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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:25 am

@gogocat: I disagree that it would be hard to explain why OP leaves for a T-14 law school even though wanting to return to Texas. It would be difficult explaining a transfer to a regional law school such as UWashington or UFlorida, but not to a T-14.

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ggocat
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby ggocat » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:39 am

@CanadianWolf, yeah, I certainly think there's room for disagreement on that topic, which is irrelevant to OP's question anyway. What I should have said is that OP is in a better position to transfer out of the current city because he/she doesn't want to return. I would think longer/harder if OP wanted to stay in the current city.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T2 TX, Top 5%

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:56 am

OP's confusion was fueled in part by a law prof at his current school who advised OP to leave & don't look back. OP also posted that he is unhappy at his current law school although he realizes that he is a lock for biglaw in that city.

OP should at least apply to Harvard & some other T-14s, in my opinion, to see what options develop. Additionally, it may prompt his current school to offer increased merit money.




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